Wheeled vehicle construction (cont from tracked thread)

Ideas, advice, tips, and tricks regarding the building and creation of mutant vehicles in Black Rock City
robotland
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Post by robotland » Sat Jan 21, 2006 5:59 am

Tiahaar wrote:
Gravity Mike wrote:I've got this small 90A wire welder, maybe it's not big enough...
hey yes, big enough for 1/16 or even 1/8 steel tubing (even bigger if multiple passes and v'd joints are done). Spring for a good weld helmet though...those cheapie handheld toys that come with some budget welders are just useful for an observer. I too have a little flux core MIG that is super on clean tubing with close fitting joints. Interesting steering idea you have! When I was a kid I had a sit-down trike where the back two wheels steered with a joystick while you pedaled the front, was way fun.
I HAD to be an artiste, and only have an oxy/ace setup. No quickie frame fitups...but I work too fast already, anyway. And besides- I can MELT stuff!

Still can't decide whether to go rectangular or triangular. I'm building wooden protos for both...Just in time for winter to return and spoil my "test track" AKA "driveway".
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Gravity Mike
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Post by Gravity Mike » Wed Feb 01, 2006 10:25 pm

dragonfly Jafe wrote:cheap welder OK

cheap welding helmet not OK (took me 2 years to learn this)

spend the extra on those instant on/off lenses, they at least triple your work speed and greatly improve your quality...
Don't worry guys, I got one of those nice photosensitive helmets right up front - a result of similar advice from a friend. I don't know how you'd weld with a hand held goggle anyway - that's an accident waiting to happen!

BTW, my practicing has paid off. What I was doing wrong (so far):

1) holding the tip too far away, wire turns red and falls away,
2) moving too fast, not working the joint thoroughly enough, and
3) not getting the two pieces both grounded. My first good weld was filling in a hole I made with a grinder in a piece of iron pipe - so my two piece welds did not have both pieces adequately grounded. So, do you guys always have a clamp to connect the two pieces, so can you weld in a 'jumper' between the two pieces first, a tack, by starting on the grounded piece and moving away? This seems to be my biggest challeng now. I'm almost there...

Thanks!!

Gravity

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Gravity Mike
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Post by Gravity Mike » Wed Feb 01, 2006 10:30 pm

robotland wrote: I HAD to be an artiste, and only have an oxy/ace setup. No quickie frame fitups...but I work too fast already, anyway. And besides- I can MELT stuff!

Still can't decide whether to go rectangular or triangular. I'm building wooden protos for both...Just in time for winter to return and spoil my "test track" AKA "driveway".
A torch requires real artistry to use. Someday maybe.

I'd go triangular - better stability with 3 wheels. I had a 3 wheel portable observation deck (from wood) that I could tow with my bike. It was only 3 to 3.5 feet wide, 5 feet long, and 7 foot high platform, and was plenty stable. I wish I had a picture handy.

Gravity

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Tiahaar
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Post by Tiahaar » Wed Feb 01, 2006 10:51 pm

I *luv* magnets for holding joints together to start (mine are just like the ones in the link below). Sounds like you've got the hang of it Gravity Mike. I wish I had my own torch outfit, for some reason I've been buying other stuff (like a bicycle lately) instead...??

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Post by capjbadger » Wed Feb 01, 2006 10:59 pm

I think I've finally figured out the route I'm going to take. I was planning on getting a small trailer to tow the art car and was planning on using trailer tires on the it as well...

Then it hit me..

Why not just build the damn this on a trailer?? :)
One like this: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/d ... mber=90154

Should save me some framework work, some money, and I know the load it can take. :D
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AntiM
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Post by AntiM » Thu Feb 02, 2006 6:29 am

I've seen one of those at the side of the road with the wheels fallen off the axles after a nasty tire blow-out. If you know the load capacity you're likely alright, but how far are you going and how good are those tires?

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Post by robotland » Thu Feb 02, 2006 6:45 am

Gravity Mike wrote:[I'd go triangular - better stability with 3 wheels. I had a 3 wheel portable observation deck (from wood) that I could tow with my bike. It was only 3 to 3.5 feet wide, 5 feet long, and 7 foot high platform, and was plenty stable. I wish I had a picture handy.

Gravity
I think I'm going triangular too. Currently in the lead is a "rail dragster" concept, with a long boom connecting two rear wheels with one front. The conduit dome is WAY too heavy, even using only 1/2" EMT- I've switched to a "flexidome" made from fiberglass struts salvaged from bicycle safety flags, tent poles and driveway markers. Found out that you REALLY can't hurry when cutting fiberglass poles- I had cut most of them, and felt pretty comfortable, when one caught the blade of my chopsaw wrong and BANG!- Blew into slivers. Scared the crap outta me! I employ all wise safety protocols, so there was no damage done, but my fingers tingled all day. I noticed that when cutting the metal ends off of salvaged tentpoles, they like to fly off at wild tangents unless you cut slo-o-w-ly. And then they STILL do it. Wear your goggles. I'm enthused about the use of fiberglass, which makes it worth all the work- Just need to genius up some nifty couplers and make a cover. "No problem"....
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Elliot
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Post by Elliot » Thu Feb 02, 2006 8:59 am

About holding work-pieces together for welding, I'll add my two cents worth; I use a lot of C-clamps. And some spring clamps - like giant steel clothes pins.

About grounding the second piece of the work, I've never given it a thought, so it is possible that you are "over-worrying" on that one :wink:

About building an art vehicle out of an existing trailer: I have long wanted to do this for a parade float -- use a lawn tractor or electric plallet jack or even a roto-tiller to pull a trailer. "Trailer tractors" (or whatever they are called) actually exist -- they are used by trailer dealers and boat dealers and marinas to move boats and other large trailers around the yard. Would make a dandy parade float / art vehicle if you could simply sit on the front of the trailer and steer the "roto-tiller"!

About three-wheeled vehicles -- please remember that the single wheel has zero stability. All your stability is in the width between the other two wheels.

I am definitely looking forward to seeing these things on the Playa! :D

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Bob
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Post by Bob » Thu Feb 02, 2006 9:02 am

Fiberglass -- masking or duct tape over the cut line first?

Re: odd geometry & fat tyres:

Image
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Elliot
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Post by Elliot » Thu Feb 02, 2006 9:16 am

Bob, I like your pentacycle a lot, but I don't understand it! :shock:

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Post by dragonfly Jafe » Thu Feb 02, 2006 9:23 am

anti-tip?
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Elliot
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Post by Elliot » Thu Feb 02, 2006 9:35 am

Don't see how, since the extra wheels are in line with the tip-axis. Of course, there is also the little matter of steering the thing! But I love the arching main frame "rails"!

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Bob
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Post by Bob » Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:31 am

Image

It's for navigating defunct monorail track. Or K-rail, I suppose.
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Elliot
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Post by Elliot » Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:04 am

I LOVE it! But does it not wiggle? Does it not need four guide wheels?

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Bob
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Post by Bob » Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:24 am

It's a concept bike, and French to boot.

Much like this one, which was a 50-foot land yacht at the '98 event. Note the dual dualies.

Image
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Elliot
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Post by Elliot » Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:54 am

So if I bring three 18-wheelers from work, and lay two of them on their sides...

Help --- I need to get some work done today! :lol:

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Post by robotland » Thu Feb 02, 2006 2:50 pm

Bob wrote:Fiberglass -- masking or duct tape over the cut line first?
Yeah. My punishment for being in a hurry, I guess. Thanks.

Re: odd geometry & fat tyres:

Image
Good Lord. I'll start laying track TOMORROW.
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Lassen Forge
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Post by Lassen Forge » Thu Feb 02, 2006 3:03 pm

It would have to be for k-rail or jersey wall - for monorail track you're missing the support for the "lower" 2 wheels (outriggers). You'd need to have an additional wheel on top of the rail and (probably) a second set of wall huggers to work on a monorail.

My only question is - if you have k-rail, you usually have the road surface it's sitting on, so what's it's practical use? If it were set up for Monorail, OTOH, it'd be an awesome inspection or "tote" vehicle...

Always wondered why the monorail idea never caught on. The 3 systems I have seen seem to be pretty functional...

bb

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Bob
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Post by Bob » Thu Feb 02, 2006 3:42 pm

Those French.

Image

Image

http://aernav.free.fr/Index.html


At Burning Man '99 I witnessed someone's effort at a hovercraft, using a ply platform on an inverted rubber raft, with a squirrel-cage blower powered by a small gas generator. They hadn't worked out the steering, so they just launched the thing slingshot-style, and it went a couple hundred feet. The playa surface was pretty hard that year, though.
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Elliot
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Post by Elliot » Thu Feb 02, 2006 3:49 pm

Oh my Gaw.... That Aerotrain! Now I've seen....

(Feverishly unpacking the scanner I just bought. What do I need to do to not screw up a scanner installation??? :?: What picture hoster is simple and cheap -- Photobucket??? :?:

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Post by spectabillis » Thu Feb 02, 2006 3:49 pm

bet the dust was something...

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Elliot
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Post by Elliot » Thu Feb 02, 2006 6:54 pm

Image

I know we are getting off track, but that French Contraption reminded me of this. Some resemblance in propulsion unit, no? Well, that's either from Roswell NM in 1947, or from my front yard on Halloween a few years ago.

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Post by LeChatNoir » Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:32 pm

Oh man... I just love contraptions!!!
Elliot wrote:

Sorry, so far as I know, steel and aluminum can not be welded together. But you don't need to. Steel rims and hubs are plentiful and don't weigh much.

Word is, a wire-feed welder (MIG) is the easiest to learn and not expensive.

I use a "stick" arc welder, but it is a rather crude tool, tricky on thin materials. (I burn a lot of holes!)

Top of the heap is a TIG (tungsten) welder, but those are expensive and require more skill. This is the only realistic way to weld aluminum, though.
No, you can’t weld aluminum and steel. Brazing might be an option, but finding steel wheels seems much more reliable. Here's some stuff I thought would be worth sharing with you all:

Some welding info and tips for welding thin stock:

Stick, or Arc welding (technically known as Shielded Metal Arc Welding) is tricky with stuff 1/8" or less. Look for the smallest rods you can find (some places still sell 1/16" rods, but they are getting fewer) and keep your amps low, low, low. Some stuff is just too thin to weld with a stick and even if you can weld it, you will blow holes. When you do, simply let the spot cool down, then start to weld with short beads, welding on one side, stopping, then welding the other. Let them cool a bit and repeat. You’ll eventually fill up the hole... just watch the weld puddle and try not to get it too hot. This “hole plug” technique works with MIG welding too and is much easier since you have a trigger (some bigger units even have a “pulse” feature that does it for you).

Welding thin stock with a stick:

Keep your arc gap close (the arc gap is the distance from the end of the rod to the base metal that the arc jumps). By stabbing the rod down into the molten puddle, you shorten the gap and cool the arc down. This is tricky, since it’s a small change from shortening the gap to sticking your rod. With practice you can do it, so don’t give up.

MIG Welding:

Wire, or MIG (Metal Inert Gas) welding is much more forgiving, both in general terms of use and in the learning stage. It uses an inert gas to shield the weld puddle from oxygen (usually Argon or an Argon/CO2 mix). It’s a much better choice for thin stock, since it’s stable to lower amperages. The small units work great for thin stock. If you can, spring for the 220V version, since you can get a little more amps from it and it doesn’t stress the machine when trying to weld thicker stock. You can weld 1/4" or even 3/8" with multiple passes, but the puddle starts to get cool with the thicker stuff and you risk lack of good weld penetration (bead humped up rather than spread out smoothly). If you can spring for a full sized roll-around 250 amp model, you’ll love it. But keep in mind, with those extra amps come extra abilities and that means extra ideas to spend money on.

You can use a flux-core wire in a MIG welder (if I remember correctly, technically changing it to Flux Core Arc Welding). This replaces the inert gas with a shielding gas produced from the burning of the flux, similar to stick welding. It also makes for more spatter and stuff to clean up, but doesn’t force you to buy a bottle of gas and tote it around everywhere.

As far as grounding both work pieces, I’ve never done it. I’ve always done as Gravity Mike has pointed out... that being start on the grounded side and lay the bead over to the ungrounded side. Both pieces are then connected and thus grounded. Then you can start down the middle of the gap and begin to fill in the weld.

Welding Aluminum:

TIG (Tungsten Inert Gas) welding is the best choice, but is much more expensive to get setup with. It is also the best choice of welding steel when clean joints and tight, controlled weld beads are required. It’s very stable at lower settings, with some units holding a steady arc down to the fractions of an amp. I knew a guy who did welding repairs for Tool & Die shops and he routinely welded under a microscope.

But for most general applications, you can get a couple of slightly more affordable options. One is a spool-feed gunthat hooks up to any standard arc welder. It’s like a mini-MIG and they work fairly well. You can also get aluminum wire for a standard MIG, but I’ve never had first hand experience with it. I’ve heard it can “bird-nest” on you at the drive rollers. Incidently, I’ve also seen aluminum rods for a stick welder, but I’ve not used those either.

Regardless of the process, compared to steel, aluminum is a big ol’ fickle bitch and takes practice... but it can be done and done well.

Quick Change Helmets:

Worth every penny. But it should be noted that I've never used any of the cheaper ones and can't speak for their quality. They may well be just fine, but I know without a doubt that Jackson makes good shit that I trust my eyes to every day.
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LeChatNoir
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Post by LeChatNoir » Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:45 pm

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Elliot
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Post by Elliot » Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:53 pm

Great welding info -- thanks!

I have some experience with aluminum wire in a Daytona Pocket MIG. Daytona adviced against it, but were willing to sell the wire and tip after they had warned me. They were right, of course. Spring for a TIG if you must weld aluminum.

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Elliot
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Post by Elliot » Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:02 pm

Wow -- good Lincoln web site! Yes, it can be done -- I got my aluminum project completed with the Daytona. But as that article emphasises, it is not easy. Haven't looked lately, but I think a TIG can be had for around $2000 now.

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LeChatNoir
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Post by LeChatNoir » Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 pm

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LeChatNoir
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Post by LeChatNoir » Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:10 pm

Miller has a small unit out now that I’m interested in. Probably around $1500 ready to weld. It can stick weld too!!!

Nice looking little item.
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Elliot
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Post by Elliot » Fri Feb 03, 2006 7:15 am

Looks like that Miller Maxstar cannot weld aluminum, but the Miller Econotig can for $1646,-. Cool!

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LeChatNoir
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Post by LeChatNoir » Fri Feb 03, 2006 8:51 am

Oh, man... you're right. You'll still need a sheilding gas bottle, but still... around $1800 isn't bad.

It should be noted for the benefit of someone reading who may be thinking of such a machine:

You'll need to factor some consumables (electrodes, filler rod, extra torch cups, etc.) into your start up costs, along with a way to sharpen the Tungsten electrode. You can get chemical dips that will point it, but I always had better luck with a fine stone on a pedestal grinder.
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