Thanx for the Newbie Love, titties + beer oh my!

[Ken Wheels]

Lots of different reactions to my critical tits post-you all may think of me as a newbie, which I am to this list but I have to admit I am a long time burner those of you who witnessed the Hellco tower know what year was my first. Any GOOD photographer knows that it is terribly rude to snap photos of people without prior written consent, BRC Rangers can assist you with trigger happy perverts. I only post to this site nowadays because I have no job-and lots of time for your reaction (which I must say is a bit harsh) come on titties on bikes are not pornographic and the dorks taking those photos aren't exzctly at the top of the food chain. That snap at the band was pretty cheap too, if you must stoop to such levels go for it. Cuatro Caminos is the band at stumprecords.com and all of the proceeds from our CD sales on CDBaby.com go directly to the Red Cross Katrina Releif Fund-so put that in your pipe and smoke it! I'm at least trying to make a difference-not just sitting on my ass complaining about shit.

Love and Kisses
your friend Wheels

[Kinetic IV]

Ken, thanks for offering the background info. And for putting up with a bad case of asshole-itis from me.

[Sensei]

You were being antagonistic and I gave it back. Boo-hoo. Now let me get this straight - because you make a charitable donation from one little part of your band's net, you can then feel free to promote said band in every post? Okay, you missed one, which I pointed out, but you're back on track with this last one I see.

Thing is, you're probably a much more decent sort of person that I'll ever be, but your reasoning still sucks.

[Dr. Pyro]

Sensei, I happen to think you're one of the most righteous (in a playa sense) people I know. I still weat that Arabic-whatever-you-call-it thing you gifted me in 2004 (even displayed it proudly on the Barbie Death Camp URL) so anyone who never met you or spent time with you is suffering from a niave sense of headupassrosis. Of course, YMMV.

[Sensei]

Jeez Doc, yer makin' me blush!

SMOOCH!

[spectabillis]

[Rockdad]

any GOOD photographer knows that it is terribly rude to snap photos of people without prior written consent

Any GOOD photographer knows that is bullshit in my humble opinion.
I suppose those cops in San Diego shooting the unarmed suspect would love to apply your rule, and all of the millions of video cameras in the urban environment would have to be shut down! Do not walk into any store/bank/ATM because like it or not your picture was just taken without written consent

So I am walking along the Playa practicing my Art (photography) and you think I should ask everyone to sign a models release?

It is a public gathering not your home.
Read the rules BRC Ranger's are not requiring anyone to get written releases and they day they do will be my last on the Playa

Took some great shots of those guys up on the hanging rocks should of climbed up there with models photo release and pen?
So every picture you have ever taken or seen taken by your friends at BM or any BM related website including BM.org has had prior written consent from everyone in the picture? all 200 people in the background too? I would need to tote a filing cabinet around the Playa for all the paperwork required in your world
and how many people of walked in front of a picture I was taking of Art Do I have to throw those pictures away or chase them down for a release?

Sorry Dicky in a box forgot to get your release!

It is simply impractical unnecessary nonsense and sounds like another rule to make and I just get really peeved with all the rule makers in this world!

I guess Republicans do go to BM too.

[HughMungus]

It is a public gathering not your home.

It's Burning Man, not everyone's day-to-day world. People don't walk around naked and jacked up on goofballs in their day-to-day world.

If you're one of those people who takes pictures without asking then you're one of the people making Burning Man a less and less hospitable environment for free expression (without worrying about it appearing on some website, etc.). And people wonder why there are exclusive groups out there.

[Rockdad]

First of all read my post I was discussing prior written permission

I try to ask most people...

Burning Man a less and less hospitable environment for free expression

I have really not noticed this problem seems some people see problem's they want to see so they can make a rules about it

Before responding I googled "Burning Man" naked

Results 1 - 20 of about 391 for "Burning Man" naked. (0.23 seconds)

Even with safe search turned off very few results? The one naked girl I found was on a site playaboobies.com run by a women and the picture was obviously with permission. All other pictures did not display nudity or were leading to adult sites just using keywords for SEO without any Playa pictures.

Almost all pictures I have ever found at any site were obviously with permission because the subject is looking at the Camera

reminds me of the current U.S.A administration taking away civil rights when there is no problem with having those rights.

[Lady V]

I've been watching this discussion around the board. I'm curious to know... if you learned that one of the strong women you photographed without asking felt genuinely hurt by your picture taking--felt exposed, vulnerable and deprived of the right not to have her image snapped--how would you respond?

(It's not me; I don't think anyone snapped my picture without consent. I'm just wondering.)

[HughMungus]

I have really not noticed this problem seems some people see problem's they want to see so they can make a rules about it

Because you have a vested interest in not seeing the problem. There's no rule against farting in an elevator full of people but I doubt you would do that...or would you? You don't seem to care much how others feel.

Almost all pictures I have ever found at any site were obviously with permission because the subject is looking at the Camera

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

[Rockdad]

I've been watching this discussion around the board. I'm curious to know... if you learned that one of the strong women you photographed without asking felt genuinely hurt by your picture taking--felt exposed, vulnerable and deprived of the right not to have her image snapped--how would you respond?

(It's not me; I don't think anyone snapped my picture without consent. I'm just wondering.)

Strong or not I would apologize and delete the picture right away but I really do ask almost all subjects first there are occasions I ask after or assume permission because they pose for the picture.

My problem with this thread was the ridiculous prior written permission part and the general man hate on other threads

And I have been told no and repected that in fact in 2001 that is how I found out about camera tags. Got my tag and the same subject let me take a picture. No problem with no

[Rockdad]

Hugh you are really losing it get back on the Med's I leave a thread and you follow me..
From now on you will be ignored get used to it...how is it put? ploinked?

[Kinetic IV]

Not that my opinion means anything....but you're getting it anyway.... I'll put it this way. Shoot at the ideas, not the person. I've used the "got meds" line myself, it's like pouring accelerants onto a smoldering fire. There are places it can be used effectively, IMHO this is not one of them.

I feel the issue of photography at CT and at the event itself is too important to see a valuable discussion on the topic turn into a personal flame fest. Could everyone step back, cool off a bit and lets get back to discussing this in a civilized fashion? I have a hunch there's some creative new approaches lurking out there...and a flame war could keep them from surfacing which is a loss for everyone.

[spectabillis]

Hugh you are really losing it get back on the Med's I leave a thread and you follow me..From now on you will be ignored get used to it...how is it put? ploinked?

to be honest, ct usually sparks this kind of heated debate, almost as much as commerce and politics. its sometimes a good idea to step off for a bit and return with a fresh perspective, if for no other reason to calm tensions so people dont say personal things like that.

[Tapestry]

In regards to getting permission before taking pictures of people: it should be pointed out that when TV networks broadcast professional sporting events and, in between plays, turn their cameras on the folks in the stands, the networks don't bother of handing out thousands of release forms before showing the pictures. That's because the people in the stands are attending a public event-- and since they have chosen to appear at a public event they are, in effect, temporarily relinquishing their right to privacy.

Taking a picture of someone privately inside their tent against their will is another thing entirely, but if they're out on the street for everybody to see they really have no cause to complain. Personally, I don't understand how people can spend a ton of money on a costume (or hours applying body paint) and travel all the way to the playa expecting to not be photographed.

[Chai Guy]

It should also be pointed out that those TV networks have contracts with those professional sporting events, and when you walk into the stadium there is generally some kind of notification that you will be filmed at the event. Also, Burning Man is not considered a "public" space, that's why people like CNN and the Discovery Times Channel must get permits to film (something they wouldn't have to do say at a "public" park" or on the steps of a court house). There is all kinds of other legalities here, but they've been hashed over and over in other threads.

No matter, let's talk solutions.

Some people want to photograph

Some people want to be photographed

Some people don't want to be photographed

What to do?

How about this. The organizers can designate a single street for photographers. If you want to photograph the CT parade you line up on that street. That's everybody, boyfriends, girlfriends, moms, everyone, if you want to snap a picture, you line up on that street.

Now if you DON"T want your photo taken you go down the alternate NON-PHOTOGRAPHER street. The parade will then converge at the end of non-photographer street and the Photographer street.

There everyone is happy!

(I wonder what percentage of women will choose to ride down the photographer street??)

[Tapestry]

How about this. The organizers can designate a single street for photographers. If you want to photograph the CT parade you line up on that street.

Now if you DON"T want your photo taken you go down the alternate NON-PHOTOGRAPHER street. The parade will then converge at the end of non-photographer street and the Photographer street.

There everyone is happy!

The problem with that rule is: how would you enforce it? You'd need dozens of Rangers all along the route to make sure there's no photos. And if someone takes pictures, what do you do? Throw them off-playa? For taking pictures? Also, digital technology allows people to take photos from great distances-- such as, out of sight of anyone enforcing the rule-- so pictures are gonna be taken no matter what.

There's no point in making rules that can't be enforced. The simplest thing to do would be to put up one of those sporting event signs at the gate: "If you come to Burning Man, you're probably gonna be photographed. Deal with it."

[Ken Wheels]

Thumbs up to spectabillis for the Kangaroo kicking the photographers ass- I hope that was rockdad (who needs to fucking chill out!) I am not a professional photographer so I dont shoot lots of people- or nudity for that matter, the issue is USE-If you want to PUBLISH or SELL a photograph of ANYONE you must have that persons prior written consent. Personal use is not the issue- it is allowed, the reason why we need to REGISTER our cameras is because some FUCKWAD went out to burning man, shot a ton of naked women, and turned around and SOLD videos as if it were his own property and RIGHT to do so. He got busted and we got fucked!
I do know several PRO photographers, and guess what- they have a note pad and they get your name/email/approval. Do the research and stop attacking people for having an opinion!!!!!!!!!

[spectabillis]

...I hope that was rockdad ...

Already got feedback from rockdad, he agreed that its probably a good idea to step back for a moment. Lets hope others can put the personal stuff aside.

[Dr. Pyro]

This may not be completely analagous, but on Thursday I was at the Alien Love Nest and one of the Barbiebarians and I put on a little show. She wanted to prove that she could strip a guy naken using only her mouth. So she proceeded to strip me naked on stage (and, in a larger sense, isn't all of BRC a stage?) and I am certain I had my picture taken by at least a dozen people and never gave it any thought. Would I be very happy if those shots turned up on the internet? Probably not, and neither would she, but would it be the end of the world? Of course not! In the scheme of things, who really gives a shit one way or the other? Our camp has always been a photography-friendly zone; you come in, and by coming in give your consent to have your picture taken or take as many as you'd like. If you don't like to play our little reindeer games, go someplace else. I really do think this discussion, in the overall picture, is much to do about nearly nothing. YMMV.

[Chai Guy]

Well, first let me say that I agree with Doc, in the grand scheme of things he's absolutely right. Hell, I've had my picture taken thousands of times at the event, and I look at Burning Man websites all the time, and I've never seen my picture or for that matter, any of photos of my friends unless of course it was a friend's website.


So how do we enforce this "rule". Well, first it wouldn't be a "rule" it would just be something that the organziers could ask of the community. We already ask people to tag their video cameras. Some people do, some people don't but it's a starting point.

I just think it would be a really fun experiment.

[Lady V]

Thanks for your response, Rockdad. It indicates to me that you are capable of holding the feelings of those who are vulnerable in high esteem. Unfortunately, there are those who posted in the original CT photography thread who do not do so, and seem proud about that fact somehow.

I like your idea, Chai Guy, of having an alternate street for photographers. It wouldn't take loads of rangers, just men (and women) willing to educate the observers.

As a woman, I am fairly sure there would be far, far fewer women riding down the photographers' street, but they would be happily, willingly there.

[Rockdad]

This started out as a PM to Ken as it evolved I decided to make it public..

Thumbs up to spectabillis for the Kangaroo kicking the photographers ass- I hope that was rockdad (who needs to fucking chill out!) I am not a professional photographer so I don't shoot lots of people- or nudity for that matter, the issue is USE-If you want to PUBLISH or SELL a photograph of ANYONE you must have that persons prior written consent.

Wait a minute... I decide to chill out and I come back to this Ken Wheels dude inciting violence? Wishing me harm? Sounds just like the type we all want on the playa...Read your own quote dude no one was talking about selling/publishing anything!
buddy why don't you read the whole thread before opening mouth and sticking your foot in!
What is really Ironic is you agree with me! Your quote says what I have been saying all along........DS!

Personal use is not the issue- it is allowed,

Is the violence thing something you bring to the playa too.?

So now you come into a middle of a thread and start advocating violence on the Playa reminds me of Islamofacist type of thinking we will intimidate him because we do not like his thought process? Read the threads on both subjects first DS I have never sold a single burning Man photo in fact if you would check first I gift my photo's http://eplaya.burningman.org/viewtopic.php?t=12286 and I always try to get permission first and a name, e-mail etc what I was complain about was the Man hate and the making of all these rules!

So chill out yourself f***wad
Some times you cannot get permission or it would be silly thing to do such as my example of the guy's up on the rocks, others such as Hugh fungus were insisting that all pictures need prior Written permission which is ridiculous.

Which brings me to another point we were having a discussion and I had not attacked anyone and then Hugh Fungus starts talking about stalking me on the Playa? No one catches that and comes to my defense? Stalking is a criminal offense in the default world, harassment, and a form of intimidation which if he had stated this in a default workplace e-mail would get him fired at the very least and possibly a criminal/civil suit, restraining order etc.
All the feminist's and Dudley dorights ignored this even when I brought it up?

Think about it for a moment...I could be a seventy-year old small frail old man or even a women no one knows..what if Hugh and Ken really did scare me and I missed out on my tenth burn the last one of my life because they succeeded in their attempted intimidation? or I could be a ex-military martial arts gun freak that does them harm on the Playa? or we are a even match and go Mano-a-Mano in center camp ruining the burn for small children there and one of us getting seriously hurt?
The possibilities are endless and the moderators are somewhat at fault here too.
I took pause when Spec posted his aussie humor and it has gone downhill ever since what happened to the everything goes party and the radical inclusion, freedom of thought? If I had'nt already bought my ticket I would be thinking this whole BM thing over again...I was a young boy when they buried Hippie, Maybe the party truly is over, They tore up the Yellow brick road..only Frat boys go down there anymore
Maybe you really can't go back Dorthy

[Rockdad]

Lady V Thank you for your kind words and belief in me

I hope to See ya on the Playa

Bob

[Kinetic IV]

Rockdad...that post went way over the line.

This thread is spiraling out of control and I'm thinking maybe it's time to ask Emily to look at it and ask her to consider freezing it for a couple of days if she could...this is way, way the fuck out of line for how this board works.

Stalkers, boxing kangaroos, moderators saying things and being attacked, center camp fights and references to gun toting ex military martial arts experts is so fucking over the top that it's scary. I've been on and off this board for about 6 years now in one form or another and I've never seen anything like this. It's bullshit and it needs to fucking stop.

Remember where you are. This is the eplaya, the online extension of the community we bust our asses to build on the playa. Would this shit happen on the real playa? No, I don't think so. So why do we have it here? It shouldn't be here. Knock this shit off and let's get a civilized discussion going again. Think people, use preview, rant, preview and then delete and then type it up again and repost ONLY when you've cooled off.

[Rockdad]

I have read both threads over and over again and the thing that really sticks out in my mind was the "Man photographer hate" by both women and some men especially in the beginning of the threads not once are the women photog's assigned any responsibility for the "perceived" problem or held to the same standard!

If you google the term "Burning Man" naked you get very few naked women the one I found was a topless girl on a trampoline and the site Playaboobies.com is run by a women! Most of the other links show naked Men! or lead to adult sites which add the words to the website HTML to increase the hit rates on search engines it is called search engine optimization or SEO for short.

I doubt there is much need or demand for pictures of naked women at Burning Man there are so many more Hardcore graphic sex photo's available on the net for free and even if the naked burner girl is truly gorgeous, sexy or whatever it still is not a big turn on compared to what is out there and even if it was so what? let the creep get his goodies off on it.
The "victim" is never going to know it so there is no real harm and I don't want hear about employers they wouldn't admit to being on such a site to start with.

Bottom line I do not see a huge monetary gain in the naked BM picture market for Pro's or "abuse" of the pictures elsewhere.

I went around Tribe and Flickr two photo sites and really most of the naked women photos are on women burner sites as ART and probably going to be seen for the most part by Burners interested in ART and Naked Human Bodies are ART even to religious sticks in the mud check out ceiling at Saint Patrick's cathedral for instance.

From what I can tell this whole thread was started by a unemployed Troll (Troll=Person posting inflammatory threads or post's to just start trouble) with to much time on his hands who was admittedly chased off the original CT thread where it should of stayed.
He also lies in original post's saying Rangers will enforce a prior written authorization rule and goes on to contradict himself in further post's.

I wish a somewhat more experienced e-playa person had recognized this and posted such a warning prior to me being stupid enough to take the bait!

A moderator should just dump the whole thread and move the discussion back to where it belongs it has just confused the discussion even more.

I will not post on this Trolled thread any further...Want a civil discussion on this topic with me take it to the CT thread

See ya on the Playa

Bob

[Kinetic IV]

That last post did come across as one sided and an attack on Rockdad...there's plenty of others who've posted here who need to step back. Yeah, that includes myself. Damn though, the guy should be able to defend himself which he did, but at the same time you want to do so without escalating the situation. That's where the over the top comment came in.

There is never any acceptable reason for stalking to come up on the playa. And perhaps that's an admin actionable complaint right there.

Getting back to my rant why I'm posting here is I see this as a problem area for the event. This is also a do-ocracy. I see things spiraling out of control and so rather than sit back and do nothing I'm wading in. Box on me for a while or something if you wanna rant, then cool off, come back down to earth and see if there are more good ideas floating around to resolve this.

[Ivy]

The "victim" is never going to know it so there is no real harm

I'm sorry, are you saying here that the person being photographed is never gonna see their photo online, so it's okay?

I'm not sure what you meant by that sentence. Can you clarify?

[Badger]

There is never any acceptable reason for stalking to come up on the playa

Physician, heal thy self.