Hopes and Fears? What it was, is, and what it shall be...

[spectabillis]

Someone reposted this elsewhere, and I thought it was an insightful moment, an inspired tale stemming from Chickenman and the one-without-legs-and-arms-in-water.

Reposted coment from ChickenJohn on Tribe...

"Unloading a truck in 1996. One of 20 loads. The great white wonder, as we used to call the flatbed truck John Law owned that made the event work. It got exatly 1 mile per gallon. I used to load the truck so tight, that it was impossible to unload as it all setled durning transport. The man was on the truck with a bunch of other stuff. All piled high and covered wiht a tarp. There was like 6 of us unloading it. Something happened. I will tell you what happened, but it was in my opinion what happened at that moment the thing that pushed John over the edge. It was the same thing that made the poster here in this tribe talk about idol worship. I handed a leg of the man to John, who threw it in a pile of other man parts. It's fucking heavy, the leg of the man. One of the helpers put his hands together and bowed; mumbling some prayer. I handed some other stuff to people and it just so happened that the head of the man was handed to the praying helper. I noticed, John noticed, everyone kinda knew. His face lit up like some kinda lantern. He held the head like it was a priceless object. He walked over to the pile of man parts, and gently placed it in a way that it wouldn't touch the ground. John kicked dirt on it. Screamed at him: "It's wood! We're gonna burn it! It's fucking firewood!!!!" and started jumping up and down on top of the parts. The guy was crying and I kinda don't know what happened from there. John said: "I'm done with this bullshit." A few days later John put a neon smiley face in the head of the man. Larry olympicly freaked out and this is a perfect example of the 2 party system that is Burning Man. People who are like John. People who are like cluess hippys."

[DVD Burner]

cluess hippys?

[HughMungus]

The mix of pragmatic realists and dreaming hippies (with some people being both at the same time) has always been one of the principal dichotomies of Burning Man.

[spectabillis]

... of course its always interesting when certain people only see the immediately negative through their own self-interested, self-rightous perceptions. You also have to love it when people become so dogmatic in their beliefs they impose their own abstract expectations on others.

burningman uber alles...

[HughMungus]

... of course its always interesting when certain people only see the immediately negative through their own self-interested, self-rightous perceptions. You also have to love it when people become so dogmatic in their beliefs they impose their own abstract expectations on others.

burningman uber alles...

What negativity are you talking about? Didn't see any until just now.

[spectabillis]

immediate negativity, i.e. knee jerk response mechanism.

[HughMungus]

immediate negativity, i.e. knee jerk response mechanism.

So what were you talking about? What negativity?

[DVD Burner]

immediate negativity, i.e. knee jerk response mechanism.

So what were you talking about? What negativity?

Doubt you will get an appropriate answer. That could be a positive.

[spectabillis]

So what were you talking about? What negativity?

In general, on the board, not specifically here in this thread.

[HughMungus]

So what were you talking about? What negativity?

In general, on the board, not specifically here in this thread.

So are you referring to a particular person or an overall feeling of "negativity"?

[DVD Burner]

So what were you talking about? What negativity?

In general, on the board, not specifically here in this thread.

So are you referring to a particular person or an overall feeling of "negativity"?

I think whatever it is....it must be personal.





I couldn't help it.

[Zulegoona]

America being a relatively young country made up of immigrants found it advantageous for it’s new citizens to forget the past in order to join in forming America. The industrial revolution and rise of a new form of capitalism saw workers as interchangeable cogs in the machine of production. Without a connection to place or family tradition we as a people seek to add meaning to our lives threw spirituality .

America is predominantly a secular society yet is one of the most Christian countries in the world. If Christianity doesn’t do “ IT” for you, there is a full pallet of religious traditions to chose from, from all over the world, or make up your own.

Life is to short to worry about how others people find or create meaning in there lives. If what ever the belief system is, it gives comfort, inspiration, a structure of values and morals, a feeling of belonging to them then it isn’t a bad thing. If it is also a belief system that respects others and there beliefs then its a good thing.

The John Law story does say a lot about an attitude exhibited at Burning Man , not all yahoos are newbies


Respect people give them there space to be what they are and believe what ever they want, worry about your own shit.

[DVD Burner]

Respect people give them there space to be what they are and believe what ever they want, worry about your own shit.

The most positive yet.

[HughMungus]

In general, on the board, not specifically here in this thread.

So are you referring to a particular person or an overall feeling of "negativity"?

I think whatever it is....it must be personal.


:lol: :P


I couldn't help it.

:lol:

I wish that if it is that people would just be more direct instead of having people wondering WTF.

Another great example of the pragmatist vs. dreamer dichotomy.

[DVD Burner]

I wish that if it is that people would just be more direct instead of having people wondering WTF.

Another great example of the pragmatist vs. dreamer dichotomy.

Uuuuummm,


I dont think you really want that. Being direct around here makes heads explode.


Ok ok, I'll move on.


I thought it was funny anyway. but I'm a happy kinda guy that way.

[spectabillis]

Life is to short to worry about how others people find or create meaning in there lives. If what ever the belief system is, it gives comfort, inspiration, a structure of values and morals, a feeling of belonging to them then it isn’t a bad thing. If it is also a belief system that respects others and there beliefs then its a good thing.

Its becomming very important to understand how others create meaning in their lives, or at least at burningman. Misunderstanding is where part of the problems come from where you now have a well established belief system. Commerce, photography, freedom of expression... these are now things that people believe and follow.

But I am also seeing a trade-off with creativity: for each new belief, rule, or value, you can no longer express things that might run counter to those. Where is the respect in that? If someone wanted to make an honest statement, to question those beliefs - like an art installation that mocks abstract popular idol worship of the man, with a pepsi symbol, how do you think people would now react?

I am not so sure...

[HughMungus]

I dont think you really want that. Being direct around here makes heads explode. :lol:

Oh yes I do. I hereby give anyone who has something to say to me the permission to just say it.

[Zulegoona]

I Have to agree with you Spectabillis, [ of course my belief system, assumes I should never stop questioning mine belief system and exploring others beliefs] , Others don’t, and that alone can create conflict But I don’t think conflict is necessarily bad, disagreement, discussion, debate, can be a great path for growth, and getting to know one another. Public art as well can be a great thing to begin the discussion between those who see it.
I don’t feel, anger, ridicule or violence directed towards people or the art they produce isn’t at all acceptable as well art that is designed to produce those responses really is disrespectful of the intended audience. Its emotionally manipulative, were as something more subtle that makes people think takes more skill on the artists part but is more respectful of the audience it’s placement..... That said, I think I would rather see a “Man” with a pepsi symbol head at BRC were there is a greater chance people would understand the message and are a bit more steeled to in your face statements than see it out side Pepsico inc. world headquarters.

[spectabillis]

...as well art that is designed to produce those responses really is disrespectful of the intended audience. Its emotionally manipulative, were as something more subtle that makes people think takes more skill on the artists part but is more respectful of the audience...

Yep, and I try to give everyone a lot of slack since many of the people attempting art at burningman are not long-time experienced artists. But not only is subtlety beyond them, but seems beyond many others too.

And I guess thats another area where the respect part comes in, not jumping to immediate 'knee jerk' responses from dogmatic beliefs. Its an important function of art to inspire people to look past their boundaries, and the event itself used to give an atmosphere that was supportive of that. Rules... beliefs... values... I dont think people really appreciate that even when these things can be important - its equally important to keep from imposing them too much at burningman.

[Zulegoona]

- its equally important to keep from imposing them too much at burningman.

Agreed, The venue needs to provide the freedom so every one to find there voice.

[Bob]

....I think I would rather see a “Man” with a pepsi symbol head at BRC were there is a greater chance people would understand the message and are a bit more steeled to in your face statements than see it out side Pepsico inc. world headquarters.

Huh?

John Law left the project because it had acquired a "message" and metric fucktons of other bullshit.

[Zulegoona]

How can making an image of a man, or any art then burning it not have a "Message"

[Bob]

Would it blow your world apart if it didn't?

[spectabillis]

I think whatever it is....it must be personal.

Doubt you will get an appropriate answer...

no, but you are obviously trying to make things personal yourself. if you have some sort of problem with me why not step up and do the mature thing like directly address it to me in PM's?

[HughMungus]

Could someone summarize the topic of this thread in one sentence? Is there a point somewhere?

[Zulegoona]

Would it blow your world apart if it didn't?

Blow my world apart, It might take that for me to not find meaning, in it.

Humans are symbol users, it would seem we have always used symbolize to express thoughts and feelings. Most people interrupt things we experience threw our own sets of symbolism and meaning . Some symbols are more universal ,others are very personal. For me the smell of burning leaves evokes and symbolizes a particular feeling of my youth, a good time and a feeling of freedom. For others the smell might evoke and symbolize fear or loss, each is as valid as the other.

As some one who makes things I’ve known the feeling of pride at producing something I was particularly proud of, thinking of it as my precious baby. I’ve also had to take some of my precious babies to the scrap yard to finance other things. I’ve worked in production wood shops, cranking out product and even with things I had low regard for I was compelled to think about what this plaque or presentation box might mean to those receiving it. The one who makes something has no power over how those who experience that thing perceives it.

Things we make are in a way an extension of ourselves, and many people are tempted to see the things they make that exist beyond there own deaths as a form of immortality.
Fire is a process of transformation turning matter into energy. Gathering around the fire might be the original community building activity. Gathering around a fire has a meaning, and is symbolic.

For me the centerpiece iconic Man structure is a symbol that represents both the gathering of people into what we know as Black Rock City and The art those people produce, Burning the man symbolically represents the temporary ephemeral nature of life and all that we make, and the temporary nature of the city. While the man burns, the gathering around the fire is a reminder that people not things is the way to find immortality.

But that’s just me, if you chose to see the man and the burning of the man as symbolizing nothing that also a valid view. but make no mistake saying it means nothing is in it’s self a meaning...........

[LeChatNoir]

Well... I’m the last person to sum up something in one sentence, but I feel like chiming in anyway.

There’s a singer/songwriter guy named Josh Rouse. I really enjoy his work. I saw an interview with him once, where the interviewer was talking about the meaning of the lyrics to one of Rouse’s songs. He went on for a bit about what he thought the lyrics meant and had apparently invested some time in puzzling out the cryptic message of the words. Rouse let him finish and then told him that the words didn’t mean anything at all... he just liked the way the they fit together.

How can making an image of a man, or any art then burning it not have a "Message"

Would it blow your world apart if it didn't?

And would it blow your world apart if, to someone else it did? It apparently blew ChickenJohn’s apart a bit. And you must admit... humans have been burning effigies for a very long time. It’d be hard not to ascribe some meaning to such an event, even if there was none. To one person, the meaning of the wooded man might be to mean nothing at all. To another it may be a profound statement of personal growth. And you know, the thing I admired about the way Josh Rouse handled that interviewer was the way he delivered his answer. He didn’t kick dirt, he didn’t look down on the guy for placing meaning where to him there was none, he just told him frankly and calmly without being condescending.

If something I make gains meaning to someone who receives it, then who am I to tell them what it means to them? It’s no longer mine to do with what I wish anyway. That’s the problem with putting things out into the world. You take them out of your head and all of the sudden they’re not solely yours anymore. People attach to them meanings that you may never had intended and if you aren’t ready for that, then perhaps the ideas are better off left in one’s own mind where it can be safely dictated exactly what they mean at all times.

[LeChatNoir]

Looks like were writing at the same time, Z.

[DVD Burner]

I think whatever it is....it must be personal.

Doubt you will get an appropriate answer...

no, but you are obviously trying to make things personal yourself. if you have some sort of problem with me why not step up and do the mature thing like directly address it to me in PM's?

that is the problem, I have no problem with you.


Well ok, Just wish you wouldn't take things so personal.





I just could not let that one pass by, especially just comming in from work and seeing this. (from the hip.)

[DVD Burner]

Could someone summarize the topic of this thread in one sentence? Is there a point somewhere?

Hopes and Fears? What it was, is, and what it shall be...

“Beyond exellence, beyond the supreme....Strive for the ultimate.......”