Early Christians didn't celebrate the birth of Christ at all; celebrating a birthday is quite a pagan practice.
And yep, Utah has a nice big Solstice burn sending a wooden sun up in flames. I'm contributing a Burnhive myself, this is the Beehive state, so I thought that'd be a decent winter effigy at a multi-burn event! whoo-hoo, naked bonfire dancing in sub-freezing weather, much more fun than wimpy caroling.
Gods
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Lassen Forge
- Posts: 5320
- Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2005 9:35 pm
- Location: Where it's always... Wednesday. Don't lose your head over it.
Naw, just busy. Don't get into religious debates, anyway - after all, who says that anyone is wrong, that it's *all* true, depending on what's between your ears, and that the real credo is to harm none.Apollonaris Zeus wrote:Looks like Bridge Bay has step out of putting some more thought into her rave.
>>grins<<
Or better, this way. You're reincarnated. Into whatever world you make of it. All automatic. Maybe even into the familial line you were in. Do good, make the world a better place, you get "heaven". Do ungood, Make the world worse, you get "hell". Not some emphirical thing out of some legend or book or whatever - the actual thing.
Heck, you may not even know who your ancestors were that f***ed things up, you just get the benefit.
And what happens if your family line dies out? >>shrug<< Who knows?
*********
That's my point - I'm not sure there is a right or wrong religion. To borrow from the current seasonal religious faith... Remember the famous words "I am that is"? Maybe this God person just *is*. Is the bearded fellow. Is the trees and stars. Is Saturn, and Aphrodite, and whoever. Is the thunder and lightning. Is you and I and ALL the people, from Bush to bin Laden. And you. And me. And everyone and everything that is, was, and will be forever, everything without beginning or end, amen, alleluia, etc.
Favorite movie line - George Burns, in Oh God, on being asked "Is Jesus Your SOn?"answers... "Yeah. Jesus is my son. Bhudda is my son. Mohammed is my son. The guy who charged me $10.95 for that steak dinner is my son." Even tho it's way limited, maybe that's what is.
or is it am.
>>shrug<<
'nuff said... back to the wormhole, table tennis match in Virgo, and I'm ahead right now...
bb
(PS - The Birthday gig? Holidays have been swapped and stolen for thousands and thousands of millenia. Makes it easy to remember them that way. Even if Iesu bar Iosep was born in October or whenever (and I can see the no records thing - it happens to the poor nowdays, too!) , it's pretty easy to find the shortest day of the year. Not to mention... Saturnalia was a pretty decent feast in the Roman Calendar, Passover was a somewhat biggie in the Jewish one, Solstice in the wiccan, etc. etc... Almost EVERYONE celebrated the return of sunny, longer days.
bb)
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Apollonaris Zeus
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It's not that it was a pagan event, but whether or not he really existed, since births were documented by both the Hebrews and the Romans. It was important for the Romans because that is how they had taxed the Hebrews by population which is the reason of the census for Joseph and Mary to return to their place of birth.AntiM wrote:Early Christians didn't celebrate the birth of Christ at all; celebrating a birthday is quite a pagan practice.
Don't forget that chistianity didn't really exist until much later and jews celebrated birthdays just like the gentiles would later.
Bridge Bay Sez: "That's my point - I'm not sure there is a right or wrong religion."
There sure is me lady.
All those that say "Ours is the only way!" and kill or destroy all those that are not of theirs.
Run Away! Run Away! Run Away!
AIIZ
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Apollonaris Zeus
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Apollonaris Zeus
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HughMungus
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- Location: Dallas, TX
Re: Gods
You left out an option: agnosticism. It doesn't matter. What matters to me is the condition of the people and the world around me.Apollonaris Zeus wrote:2,000 years of the One God belief and all to see is more war, division, famine and the distruction of the enviroment and family! Christian Generals speaking of his superior God over the Muslim God. Christian President speaks that his God is humble and a forgiving God, but yet seeks a war with lies and deception without regard for the innocent lives.
Has the house of Abraham and the decentant related religions become the supreme disfunction family of God! Or has God abandon them for their 2,000 years of religious arrogance and non-acceptance of others and their belief in God(s) and their oppressive intepretation of the word of God.
A II Z
It's what you make it.
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Apollonaris Zeus
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Acording to this definition Agnosticism is neither a belief nor a disbelief, but a DUH!
Definition of Agnostic:
Agnosticism is a concept, not a religion. It is a belief related to the existence or non-existence of God.
An agnostic is a person who feels that God's existence can neither be proved nor disproved, on the basis of current evidence. Agnostics note that some theologians and philosophers have tried to to prove, for millennia, that God exists. Others have attempted to prove that God does not exist. Agnostics feel that neither side has convincingly succeeded at their task.
Are they Theists? No, because Agnostics do not believe in a God, or a Goddess, or in multiple Gods, or multiple Goddesses or in a pantheon of Gods and Goddesses.
However, some Agnostics consider themselves to be Atheists. That is because the term "Atheist" has two slightly different meanings:
1. A person who positively believes that no God(s) or Goddess(es) exists. E. Haldeman-Julius suggests that "The atheist perceives that history, in every branch of science, in the plainly observable realities of life and in the processes of common sense there is no place for the picture of a God; the idea doesn't fit in with a calmly reasoned and realistic view of life. The atheist, therefore denies the assumptions of theism because they are mere assumptions and are not proved; whereas the contrary evidences, against the idea of theism, are overwhelming." 1 This is the definition of Atheism used by most Christians, other Theists, and dictionaries of the English language.
2. A person who has no belief in a God or Goddess. Just as a newborn has no concept of a deity, some adults also have no such belief. The term "Atheist" is derived from the Greek words "a" which means "without" and "Theos" which means "God." A person can be a non-Theist by simply lacking a belief in God without actively denying God's existence. This is the definition of Atheism used by many Atheists. They use the term "strong Atheist" to refer to a person who denies the existence of one or more deities.
Some Agnostics feel that their beliefs match the second definition, and thus consider themselves to be both Atheist and an Agnostic. Such confusion is common in the field of religion. We have found 17 definitions for the term "Witch," eight for "cult," and six for the "Pagan." -- all different. A lack of clear, unambiguous definitions for religious terms is responsible for a great deal of confusion and hatred. It makes dialog between Agnostics and Theists very difficult.
An agnostic usually holds the question of the existence of God open, pending the arrival of more evidence. They are willing to change their belief if some solid evidence or logical proof is found in the future. However, some have taken the position that there is no logical way in which the existence or the non-existence of a deity can be proven.
End of Definition!
The condition of the Human Race isn't dependent on a God or Gods, but how you appreciate other beliefs. Our conflict with the followers of the one god theology is that there can only be one god to follow. They being the Jews, Christians and muslims of which most people believe that having no God(s) is the better approach and that man would be better without one, of which is not true at all because you will be left with your nation or race or whatever that could be used to form a conflict in which barbaric mankind can use in their agenda to control the masses.
I have found that agnosticism is really an ambiguity. But I will take that into consideration if ever the server gets wiped out again. I do appreciate your input.
AIIZ
Definition of Agnostic:
Agnosticism is a concept, not a religion. It is a belief related to the existence or non-existence of God.
An agnostic is a person who feels that God's existence can neither be proved nor disproved, on the basis of current evidence. Agnostics note that some theologians and philosophers have tried to to prove, for millennia, that God exists. Others have attempted to prove that God does not exist. Agnostics feel that neither side has convincingly succeeded at their task.
Are they Theists? No, because Agnostics do not believe in a God, or a Goddess, or in multiple Gods, or multiple Goddesses or in a pantheon of Gods and Goddesses.
However, some Agnostics consider themselves to be Atheists. That is because the term "Atheist" has two slightly different meanings:
1. A person who positively believes that no God(s) or Goddess(es) exists. E. Haldeman-Julius suggests that "The atheist perceives that history, in every branch of science, in the plainly observable realities of life and in the processes of common sense there is no place for the picture of a God; the idea doesn't fit in with a calmly reasoned and realistic view of life. The atheist, therefore denies the assumptions of theism because they are mere assumptions and are not proved; whereas the contrary evidences, against the idea of theism, are overwhelming." 1 This is the definition of Atheism used by most Christians, other Theists, and dictionaries of the English language.
2. A person who has no belief in a God or Goddess. Just as a newborn has no concept of a deity, some adults also have no such belief. The term "Atheist" is derived from the Greek words "a" which means "without" and "Theos" which means "God." A person can be a non-Theist by simply lacking a belief in God without actively denying God's existence. This is the definition of Atheism used by many Atheists. They use the term "strong Atheist" to refer to a person who denies the existence of one or more deities.
Some Agnostics feel that their beliefs match the second definition, and thus consider themselves to be both Atheist and an Agnostic. Such confusion is common in the field of religion. We have found 17 definitions for the term "Witch," eight for "cult," and six for the "Pagan." -- all different. A lack of clear, unambiguous definitions for religious terms is responsible for a great deal of confusion and hatred. It makes dialog between Agnostics and Theists very difficult.
An agnostic usually holds the question of the existence of God open, pending the arrival of more evidence. They are willing to change their belief if some solid evidence or logical proof is found in the future. However, some have taken the position that there is no logical way in which the existence or the non-existence of a deity can be proven.
End of Definition!
The condition of the Human Race isn't dependent on a God or Gods, but how you appreciate other beliefs. Our conflict with the followers of the one god theology is that there can only be one god to follow. They being the Jews, Christians and muslims of which most people believe that having no God(s) is the better approach and that man would be better without one, of which is not true at all because you will be left with your nation or race or whatever that could be used to form a conflict in which barbaric mankind can use in their agenda to control the masses.
I have found that agnosticism is really an ambiguity. But I will take that into consideration if ever the server gets wiped out again. I do appreciate your input.
AIIZ
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Apollonaris Zeus
- Posts: 3716
- Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 11:17 am
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Apollonaris Zeus
- Posts: 3716
- Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 11:17 am
This is not about a celebration of religion, but one of control and submission to those that want to end all who believe in the Gods and Liberty of American Ports!
WAHHABI ISLAM AND THE GULF
The eighteenth and nineteenth centuries were a turbulent time for Arabia in general and for the gulf in particular. To the southeast, the Al Said of Oman were extending their influence northward, and from Iraq the Ottoman Turks were extending their influence southward. From the east, both the Iranians and the British were becoming increasingly involved in Arab affairs.
The most significant development in the region, however, was the Wahhabi movement. The name Wahhabi derived from Muhammad ibn Abd al Wahhab, who died in 1792. He grew up in an oasis town in central Arabia where he studied Hanbali law, usually considered the strictest of Islamic legal schools, with his grandfather. While still a young man, he left home and continued his studies in Medina and then in Iraq and Iran.
When he returned from Iran to Arabia in the late 1730s, he attacked as idolatry many of the customs followed by tribes in the area who venerated rocks and trees. He extended his criticism to practices of the Twelver Shia, such as veneration of the tombs of holy men. He focused on the central Muslim principle that there is only one God and that this God does not share his divinity with anyone. From this principle, his students began to refer to themselves as muwahhidun (sing., muwahhid), or "unitarians." Their detractors referred to them as "Wahhabis."
Muhammad ibn Abd al Wahhab considered himself a reformer and looked for a political figure to give his ideas a wider audience. He found this person in Muhammad ibn Saud, the amir (see Glossary) of Ad Diriyah, a small town near Riyadh. In 1744 the two swore a traditional Muslim pledge in which they promised to work together to establish a new state (which later became present-day Saudi Arabia) based on Islamic principles. The limited but successful military campaigns of Muhammad ibn Saud caused Arabs from all over the peninsula to feel the impact of Wahhabi ideas.
The Wahhabis became known for a fanaticism similar to that of the early Kharijites. This fanaticism helped to intensify conflicts in the gulf. Whereas tribes from the interior had always raided settled communities along the coast, the Wahhabi faith provided them with a justification for continuing these incursions to spread true Islam. Accordingly, in the nineteenth century Wahhabi tribes, under the leadership of the Al Saud, moved at various times against Kuwait, Bahrain, and Oman. In Oman, the Wahhabi faith created internal dissension as well as an external menace because it proved popular with some of the Ibadi tribes in the Omani interior.
Wahhabi thought has had a special impact on the history of Qatar. Muhammad ibn Abd al Wahhab's ideas proved popular among many of the peninsula tribes, including the Al Thani clan, before the Al Khalifa attempted to take over the area from Bahrain at the beginning of the nineteenth century. As a result, Wahhabi beliefs motivated Al Thani efforts to resist the attempt of the Al Khalifa, who rejected Wahhabism, to gain control of the peninsula. In the early 1990s, Wahhabism distinguished Qatar religiously from its neighbors.
Wahhabi fervor was also significant in the history of the present-day UAE. The Qawasim tribes that had controlled the area since the eighteenth century adapted Wahhabi ideas and transferred the movement's religious enthusiasm to the piracy in which they had traditionally engaged. Whereas Wahhabi thought opposed all that was not orthodox in Islam, it particularly opposed non-Muslim elements such as the increasing European presence in the Persian Gulf.
Data as of January 1993
AIIZ
WAHHABI ISLAM AND THE GULF
The eighteenth and nineteenth centuries were a turbulent time for Arabia in general and for the gulf in particular. To the southeast, the Al Said of Oman were extending their influence northward, and from Iraq the Ottoman Turks were extending their influence southward. From the east, both the Iranians and the British were becoming increasingly involved in Arab affairs.
The most significant development in the region, however, was the Wahhabi movement. The name Wahhabi derived from Muhammad ibn Abd al Wahhab, who died in 1792. He grew up in an oasis town in central Arabia where he studied Hanbali law, usually considered the strictest of Islamic legal schools, with his grandfather. While still a young man, he left home and continued his studies in Medina and then in Iraq and Iran.
When he returned from Iran to Arabia in the late 1730s, he attacked as idolatry many of the customs followed by tribes in the area who venerated rocks and trees. He extended his criticism to practices of the Twelver Shia, such as veneration of the tombs of holy men. He focused on the central Muslim principle that there is only one God and that this God does not share his divinity with anyone. From this principle, his students began to refer to themselves as muwahhidun (sing., muwahhid), or "unitarians." Their detractors referred to them as "Wahhabis."
Muhammad ibn Abd al Wahhab considered himself a reformer and looked for a political figure to give his ideas a wider audience. He found this person in Muhammad ibn Saud, the amir (see Glossary) of Ad Diriyah, a small town near Riyadh. In 1744 the two swore a traditional Muslim pledge in which they promised to work together to establish a new state (which later became present-day Saudi Arabia) based on Islamic principles. The limited but successful military campaigns of Muhammad ibn Saud caused Arabs from all over the peninsula to feel the impact of Wahhabi ideas.
The Wahhabis became known for a fanaticism similar to that of the early Kharijites. This fanaticism helped to intensify conflicts in the gulf. Whereas tribes from the interior had always raided settled communities along the coast, the Wahhabi faith provided them with a justification for continuing these incursions to spread true Islam. Accordingly, in the nineteenth century Wahhabi tribes, under the leadership of the Al Saud, moved at various times against Kuwait, Bahrain, and Oman. In Oman, the Wahhabi faith created internal dissension as well as an external menace because it proved popular with some of the Ibadi tribes in the Omani interior.
Wahhabi thought has had a special impact on the history of Qatar. Muhammad ibn Abd al Wahhab's ideas proved popular among many of the peninsula tribes, including the Al Thani clan, before the Al Khalifa attempted to take over the area from Bahrain at the beginning of the nineteenth century. As a result, Wahhabi beliefs motivated Al Thani efforts to resist the attempt of the Al Khalifa, who rejected Wahhabism, to gain control of the peninsula. In the early 1990s, Wahhabism distinguished Qatar religiously from its neighbors.
Wahhabi fervor was also significant in the history of the present-day UAE. The Qawasim tribes that had controlled the area since the eighteenth century adapted Wahhabi ideas and transferred the movement's religious enthusiasm to the piracy in which they had traditionally engaged. Whereas Wahhabi thought opposed all that was not orthodox in Islam, it particularly opposed non-Muslim elements such as the increasing European presence in the Persian Gulf.
Data as of January 1993
AIIZ
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Apollonaris Zeus
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- Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 11:17 am
Anti-Darwin Bill Fails in Utah
By KIRK JOHNSON
Published: February 28, 2006
In a defeat for critics of Darwin, the Utah House of Representatives on Monday voted down a bill intended to challenge the theory of evolution in high school science classes.
The bill had been viewed nationally, by people on each side of the science education debate, as an important proposal because Utah is such a conservative state, with a Legislature dominated by members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
But the bill died on a 46-to-28 vote in the Republican-controlled House after being amended by the majority whip, Stephen H. Urquhart, a Mormon who said he thought God did not have an argument with science. The amendment stripped out most of the bill's language, leaving only that the state board of education "shall establish curriculum requirements relating to scientific instruction."
Legislative officials said the bill was not likely to be revived before the scheduled adjournment of the Legislature on Wednesday. The Origins of Life bill, in its initial form, would have required teachers to issue a disclaimer to their students saying that not all scientists agree about evolution and the origin of species. It did not mention any alternative theory to Darwinism, but was viewed by some supporters and opponents as part of the drive to encourage the teaching of intelligent design, which says that life is too complicated to have evolved without an architect.
Some Mormon legislators opposed the bill because they agreed with Mr. Urquhart that science and religion should remain separate, others because they thought intelligent design was not in keeping with traditional Mormon belief.
Casey Luskin, a spokesman for the Discovery Institute, a research group based in Seattle that has promoted the ideas of intelligent design, called the vote "a loss for scientific education," but said it was a purely local Utah matter.
A spokesman for Americans United for Separation of Church and State, Joe Conn, said Utah's vote would resonate.
"If the creationists can't win in a state as conservative as Utah, they've got an uphill battle," Mr. Conn said.
End of article
You can't prove anything with faith alone! And which creationist theory would be taught. Navaho! Hindu or Mine, "that we were created by an inferior God, Prometheus, which is why, men are so corrupt! Or the Judeo/christain/Muslim belief that we were created in the image of God! Which proves my belief! Because mankind is corrupt and therefore so is the God that created us. Only science should be taught in a science class and creationism in a Philosophy class.
AIIZ
By KIRK JOHNSON
Published: February 28, 2006
In a defeat for critics of Darwin, the Utah House of Representatives on Monday voted down a bill intended to challenge the theory of evolution in high school science classes.
The bill had been viewed nationally, by people on each side of the science education debate, as an important proposal because Utah is such a conservative state, with a Legislature dominated by members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
But the bill died on a 46-to-28 vote in the Republican-controlled House after being amended by the majority whip, Stephen H. Urquhart, a Mormon who said he thought God did not have an argument with science. The amendment stripped out most of the bill's language, leaving only that the state board of education "shall establish curriculum requirements relating to scientific instruction."
Legislative officials said the bill was not likely to be revived before the scheduled adjournment of the Legislature on Wednesday. The Origins of Life bill, in its initial form, would have required teachers to issue a disclaimer to their students saying that not all scientists agree about evolution and the origin of species. It did not mention any alternative theory to Darwinism, but was viewed by some supporters and opponents as part of the drive to encourage the teaching of intelligent design, which says that life is too complicated to have evolved without an architect.
Some Mormon legislators opposed the bill because they agreed with Mr. Urquhart that science and religion should remain separate, others because they thought intelligent design was not in keeping with traditional Mormon belief.
Casey Luskin, a spokesman for the Discovery Institute, a research group based in Seattle that has promoted the ideas of intelligent design, called the vote "a loss for scientific education," but said it was a purely local Utah matter.
A spokesman for Americans United for Separation of Church and State, Joe Conn, said Utah's vote would resonate.
"If the creationists can't win in a state as conservative as Utah, they've got an uphill battle," Mr. Conn said.
End of article
You can't prove anything with faith alone! And which creationist theory would be taught. Navaho! Hindu or Mine, "that we were created by an inferior God, Prometheus, which is why, men are so corrupt! Or the Judeo/christain/Muslim belief that we were created in the image of God! Which proves my belief! Because mankind is corrupt and therefore so is the God that created us. Only science should be taught in a science class and creationism in a Philosophy class.
AIIZ
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AntiM
- Moderator
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The bill's sponsor is a complete idiot who has no clue what Darwinism actually means:
Utah House Kills Evolution Teaching Bill
By JENNIFER DOBNER, Associated Press Writer
SALT LAKE CITY - Public schools won't have to change the way they teach evolution, after the House on Monday gutted, and then killed, a bill that would have required science courses to mention alternative theories.
Senate Bill 96 failed in the House on a 28-46 vote, after a lengthy debate that saw the bill changed twice.
The bill's sponsor, Sen. Chris Buttars, R-West Jordan, had said it was time to rein in teachers who were teaching that man had descended from apes, and rattling the faith of students. The Senate passed the measure 16-12.
House sponsor Rep. Jim Ferrin, R-Orem, started Monday's debate with a substitute bill, which removed the phrase about teaching the "origins of life." Ferrin said the phrase should come out because current state curricula only includes teaching the origins of species, not human evolution.
Ferrin had no trouble getting support for his substitute, but House lawmakers weren't as eager to support the bill's underlying premise.
Rep. Scott Wyatt, R-Logan, said he feared passing the bill would force the state to then address hundreds of other scientific theories _ "from Quantum physics to Freud" _ in the same manner.
"I would leave you with two questions," Wyatt said. "If we decide to weigh in on this part, are we going to begin weighing in on all the others and are we the correct body to do that?"
House Majority Whip Rep. Steve Urquhart suggested amending the bill to leave it with just one sentence that read, "The State Board of Education shall establish curriculum requirements, consistent with Subsection 1, relating to scientific instruction of students on the origins of species."
"I think it's appropriate to leave this up to the Board of Education," Urquhart said.
Ferrin argued against the amendment, saying that he wasn't trying to stop the teaching of evolution in schools, nor suggesting that religious thought should be taught.
"However, if that scientific instruction goes to the origin of species, when it postulates that humans, apes, snakes, cows whales or whatever all evolved from a common ancestor. Then I would say, if that can be empirically proven, let's teach it as such," Ferrin said. "But if it's merely an inference, then let's teach is as inference."
The amendment passed 44-31 and was followed quickly by the vote that killed the bill itself.
Buttars monitored the debate from the House floor. Afterward he said he was disappointed.
Buttars said he doesn't believe the defeat means that most House members think Darwin's theory of evolution is correct.
"Absolutely not. It means the vote was wrong in my opinion," Buttars said. "I don't believe that anybody in there really wants their kids to be taught that their great-grandfather was an ape."
-end of article-
ook ook!
Utah House Kills Evolution Teaching Bill
By JENNIFER DOBNER, Associated Press Writer
SALT LAKE CITY - Public schools won't have to change the way they teach evolution, after the House on Monday gutted, and then killed, a bill that would have required science courses to mention alternative theories.
Senate Bill 96 failed in the House on a 28-46 vote, after a lengthy debate that saw the bill changed twice.
The bill's sponsor, Sen. Chris Buttars, R-West Jordan, had said it was time to rein in teachers who were teaching that man had descended from apes, and rattling the faith of students. The Senate passed the measure 16-12.
House sponsor Rep. Jim Ferrin, R-Orem, started Monday's debate with a substitute bill, which removed the phrase about teaching the "origins of life." Ferrin said the phrase should come out because current state curricula only includes teaching the origins of species, not human evolution.
Ferrin had no trouble getting support for his substitute, but House lawmakers weren't as eager to support the bill's underlying premise.
Rep. Scott Wyatt, R-Logan, said he feared passing the bill would force the state to then address hundreds of other scientific theories _ "from Quantum physics to Freud" _ in the same manner.
"I would leave you with two questions," Wyatt said. "If we decide to weigh in on this part, are we going to begin weighing in on all the others and are we the correct body to do that?"
House Majority Whip Rep. Steve Urquhart suggested amending the bill to leave it with just one sentence that read, "The State Board of Education shall establish curriculum requirements, consistent with Subsection 1, relating to scientific instruction of students on the origins of species."
"I think it's appropriate to leave this up to the Board of Education," Urquhart said.
Ferrin argued against the amendment, saying that he wasn't trying to stop the teaching of evolution in schools, nor suggesting that religious thought should be taught.
"However, if that scientific instruction goes to the origin of species, when it postulates that humans, apes, snakes, cows whales or whatever all evolved from a common ancestor. Then I would say, if that can be empirically proven, let's teach it as such," Ferrin said. "But if it's merely an inference, then let's teach is as inference."
The amendment passed 44-31 and was followed quickly by the vote that killed the bill itself.
Buttars monitored the debate from the House floor. Afterward he said he was disappointed.
Buttars said he doesn't believe the defeat means that most House members think Darwin's theory of evolution is correct.
"Absolutely not. It means the vote was wrong in my opinion," Buttars said. "I don't believe that anybody in there really wants their kids to be taught that their great-grandfather was an ape."
-end of article-
ook ook!
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Apollonaris Zeus
- Posts: 3716
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[quote="Sen. Buttars"]
I don't believe that anybody in there really wants their kids to be taught that their great-grandfather was an ape."
[quote]
"Forgive them Father, they know not that you too where once an ape and a fine one at that!"
"Oh so true my son, Jesus, and I too had a Harem full of young brides as well. We all evolve. Evolution is truely a good thing!"
"Amen! Father."
AIIZ
I don't believe that anybody in there really wants their kids to be taught that their great-grandfather was an ape."
[quote]
"Forgive them Father, they know not that you too where once an ape and a fine one at that!"
"Oh so true my son, Jesus, and I too had a Harem full of young brides as well. We all evolve. Evolution is truely a good thing!"
"Amen! Father."
AIIZ
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freakersedge
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- Location: Reno, Nevada
I was stopped by the powers of burningman discussion from asking "if we are created in Gods image, does that image include the way it thinks", in another thread, so Does your image include the way you think? I can't say that it does with mere mortals, myself included but perhaps with the advancement of philosophy we will eventually get to see hows Gods image is reflected in our thoughts and actions.
freaker
freaker
just your basic hippy
Actually I know several people who define themselves as agnostic but consider that to mean that they have a positive theistic belief that god exists but that the precise nature of god is unknowable or at least that they are unable to define him/her/it/them. This is pretty much the direction my own faith is going although I'm tempted by the Hindu philosophy that all gods are potentially valid as reflected aspects of Vishnu. I'm also curious about the Hellenistic views you wrote about last year (can't scroll up that far to quote). Do you have any suggestions for further readings? I take it this is a current revival of ancient Greek religion.Apollonaris Zeus wrote:An agnostic is a person who feels that God's existence can neither be proved nor disproved, on the basis of current evidence.
Happiness or misery is a choice that's always available to us.
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Ugly Dougly
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freakersedge
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Apollonaris Zeus
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OK here it is once again!
HELLENISM
(What We Believe,
What We Stand For
by Kresphontis on behalf of Diipetes,
published on Green Egg journal, issue no 109, Summer 1995
Return to the Greece page
Hellenism (ELLENIKON ETHNISMOS) is not simply a Religion and Cosmotheory, it is a certain form of human consciousness and an everyday ethos. It is a strong adversary of the so-called "Monotheism" and this not only due to its being the most well-documented of the ancient polytheistic nature-Religions, but also because it is the cultural product of a civilization much higher -on all levels- than the one which created and spread the worship of a Desert "God" throughout the world.
Hellenism perceives Cosmos (KOSMOS, i.e. the Universe) as an ever-existing Being, which not only was not created by some "creator" God out of nothing (EK TOU MEDENOS), but on the contrary allowed the Gods themselves to be created through its procedures. Hellenism understands Cosmos as APEIRON (Apeiron, Infinity) in great, wonderful order and therefore in Hellenic language Cosmos means also jewel (KOSMOS, KOSMENA). Gods were born inside the Cosmos and live inside it -they are part of it. This is our REAL dispute with the so-called "Monotheism;" not the number of Gods (One or Many, Mono- or Poly-) but where the God or Gods stand in relation to the Cosmos. For the "Monotheists" the Cosmos was created by an ever -existing Being outside it (so in this macro-historical level it is nothing more than a mortal creation). For the "Monotheists" Cosmos is a creation that has to obey the laws of its "creator". For us Hellenes, the eternal Cosmos emerges always from inside of itself (ANADYETAI AFS EAUTOU) and is the creator of all Gods, which have to obey its own laws. In the Hellenic Cosmotheory, these laws are :
ANTIPEPONTHOS Untranslatable into English, but roughly meaning "all events influence others" thought without "cause and effect",
NOMOS The entirey of the universal physical Laws), and
ANAKE (Need and Fate), which all Gods respect and obey.
Due to the eternal nature of Cosmos itself, the Hellenic perception of KRONOS (Time) is not linear (as the followers of Yahweh or the modern "rationalists" declare), nor circular (as many judeo-born occult dogmas teach) through the OUROBOROS symbol (the tail-eater snake), but spiral and leading to APEIRON. Through this shape of Time, the annual circles, the lunar circles, the human (and all) life, and the art of Prophecy, are fully interpreted. History is never "repeated", just similar to the point that identical events happen but always under different circumstances. And the death of humans (and of all mortal forms of life) happens as the philosopher Alkmaion declared, simply "because it is impossible for the end of the circle to touch the beginning". In other words, because it is impossible for the old to become infants again.
For the Hellenic Tradition, or at least its part not yet influenced by the "moral" ideas brought over from eastern civilizations by some famous philosophers as Pythagoras and Plato, no such thing as the "karma" of the eastern theocrats exists, and no "judges" exist in the skies or elsewhere. All dead become automatically holy and then they are born again until through ARETE (Virtue) one day their PSYCHE escapes from the spiral of Time, thus becoming primitive God, DAIMON, a word with a positive meaning for Hellenes, in contrast with Judeo-Christain superstition. HERAKLES (Hercules) is the ultimate symbol of this struggle of each mortal to make his / her way to Olympus, among the Immortal Ones. Hercules is the ultimate symbol for all Hellenes of the past and the present. No, we do not believe in METEMPSYCHOSIS (Re-incarnation) suffering or prospering in this life to pay for or be rewarded for the bad or good actions of previous lives, but instead simply in PALIGENESIA (Rebirth). This perspective distinguishes us from the theocratic dogmas that terrify their believers with "punishments" e.t.c. We love or hate completely outside the Judeo-Christian or karmic designs and dualisms. No dualism of "Good and Evil" exists in the Immortal Cosmos, nor such things as the miscellaneous "moralities" that all the dualistic dogmas spread among humanity. We become virtuous only because we choose to be such.
Our Gods are many and we understand them as completing the make-up of the Universal Sphere of Cosmos to its maximum potential and whole. Thus, from the DODEKAEDRON, a geometric shape (that fills up the sphere to its maximum) we imagine twelve planes, each one presenting a God inside the Cosmos and we define our Hellenic PANTHEON (PAN TON THEON, All The Gods) as DODEKATHEON (Pantheon of The Twelve Gods).The Twelve Gods of ours live inside the Shpere of Cosmos and form its various behaviors. In the same way, the twelve Zodiacs represent twelve "energies" that reach Earth and live inside the humans and animals, thus forming various behaviors as well.
Our Twelve Gods are also called OLYMPIOI (the Olympians) not because, as many want to believe, they.. dwell on Mt. Olympus, as the mountains with this name numbered not one but eighteen throughout the Hellenic World. This is just a poetic conception, similar to the one that wants Pan to dwell in the forests of Arcadia. The word "Olympus" comes from the verb LAMPO (shining). Our Twelve Gods are the "Shining Ones", and the real "Olympus" is not a geographical but a spiritual place, where the Gods really exist.
Another fact worth noting is that these Twelve Gods are not the same Twelve Gods for all Hellenes as some leave Dionysos out, some leave Hestia, etc., replacing them with others. It is the number that counts, not the names of the Gods which in any case number in the thousands- and we must underline here that Hellenism honors and worships not only conscious forces and energies of Nature (as almost all Pagan religions do) but also abstract Ideas, such as Harmony, Eunomia (personified Order), Justice, Freedom, Beauty, Luck, etc. For us, the Ideas are alive and have form and consciousness; they are real deities that simply show themselves through the functions of the human mind.
A basic ("for beginners") form of invocation of the Twelve Olympian Gods, a Pantheon that was worshiped at least since the 16th Century before the Judeo-Christian Era (they are named U-ru-pa-ja-jo in the Linear B inscription of Pylos), and openly until the 9th Century of our times (when the last remains of worship of the ethnic Hellenic Gods were exterminated in Lakonia, under the persecutions by "Saint" Nikon the so-called "Metanoite" i.e. "Repent") is the following:
(The Gods are being invoked in "couples" according to the elements and functions that each "couple" supervises).
* Hestia (the power or denization and of common ethos: all invocations start with her named first: " AF’ HESTIA"
* The honored God or Goddess of the hellenic lunar month
* Hephaistos - Hestia (alternatively: Hermes - Hestia)
* Ares - Aphrodite
* Apollo - Artemis
* Hermes - Athena (alternatively: Hephaistos - Athena)
* Poseidon - Demeter
* Hera - Zeus
We must emphasize here that the "male" and "female" terms inside the Hellenic Pantheon have nothing to do with the sexism and dualism dwelling in the minds of narrow-minded followers of alien cultures. Our Gods have no genitals. The existence of six Gods and six Goddesses inside the Hellenic Pantheon only serves to declare the total balance of all elements and characteristics inside the Sphere of Cosmos. Understanding the structure, nature and distribution of the Cosmos in this way, Hellenism comes in open opposition to all one-sided and partial dogmas on Cosmos, such as "Monotheism", "Bitheism" e.t.c. Because of this, for centuries now, it has been attacked with all the weapons that the arsenal of its enemies contains, from the burnings and crucifixions by the christianized Romans of Contantinoupolis to the disinformation and slander of the modern servants of the Desert "God" Yahweh (in all their disguises). And it may sound odd, but both we and our enemies know that the power of Hellenism is more than that of a Cosmotheory or of a Religion. It's above all a political and social "how to" theory that means to "haunt" the Every Day Life with its high principles: Dignity, Freedom, Beauty, Honesty, Variety, Tolerance, Candor..
We represent an ethos and a cosmotheory, both deeply admirable, for they never allowed the existence of priestly castes, unquestioning obedience, fear or guilt (Hellenism knows nothing about the word "sin"), dogma, missions, or "sacred" books. We are fighting for the Hellenic Dignity in a country totally dominated by an alien culture and cosmotheory, inside a world which is totally dominated by an alien culture and cosmotheory. We speak a language in which most of its deep meanings are impossible to translate into the widely spoken languages of today, a language that almost nobody can understand (nobody outside Greece can read our journal and books). From a strictly "strategic" perspective, we appear almost insane or, at least, "defeated in advance". But we know that we tread the correct path and that the Gods support us. Just by existing we win !
We are the revenge of the Ancient Psyche. We call into question almost every thought and act of this dying world enslaved to the Desert "God" Yahweh, almost every single behavior. And we are in full solidarity with all groups and movements all around the Globe, which work for the restoration of their traditional / indigenous ethos and religions, and also with all the others which fight the multi-faceted war for Freedom, Tolerance, Respect for Nature and Direct Democracy in all levels of Every Day Life.
A Definition of Polytheism
(Scroll Of Oplontis, 1991)
The word "Polytheism" is derived from the Greek words POLY (many) and THEOS (God) and means "worship of many Gods". Polytheism is therefore defined as a belief in the existence of many Gods. It is the idea that there are many divine powers. It is the idea that divinity ultimately resides in many separate entities or beings.
There are many Gods and Goddesses. The Gods are the greatest and most powerful beings. They are wise and just. They are immortal. They are worthy of respect and adoration.
The Gods have many forms and they can reveal themselves in many ways. They are both immanent and transcendent. They are present in the elements and forms of Being. They are manifest in the forces of Nature, in matter and energy, but they are also transcendent beings not bound by any material form. The Gods can reveal themselves within the human or other beings, as plants or animals, or as material objects. There are no limits of form or being upon the Gods an Goddesses. They are what they choose to be.
Divinity is multiple and various, both in appearance and in reality. No single God or Goddess hides behind all the multitude of divine forms. The Gods and Goddesses are objectively real entities whose existence is not dependent upon the beliefs or actions of lesser beings. They are not archetypes. They are not imaginary symbols of human activity or of the human mind. They are not symbolic representations of natural events and processes.
The Gods and Goddesses are real. They exist. Their wisdom and power give shape to this World, to this certain form of Cosmos. Their beauty and grace will last forever.
The Gods and Goddesses are free and independent beings. They are equally divine. They are not controlled by any other entity or power.
The Gods and Goddesses are pleased when lesser beings FREELY acknowledge their existence and offer them respect and worship. They do not though need or require this acknowledgment. The all powerful Gods and Goddesses need nothing. They simply form whatever they desire.
HELLENISM
(What We Believe,
What We Stand For
by Kresphontis on behalf of Diipetes,
published on Green Egg journal, issue no 109, Summer 1995
Return to the Greece page
Hellenism (ELLENIKON ETHNISMOS) is not simply a Religion and Cosmotheory, it is a certain form of human consciousness and an everyday ethos. It is a strong adversary of the so-called "Monotheism" and this not only due to its being the most well-documented of the ancient polytheistic nature-Religions, but also because it is the cultural product of a civilization much higher -on all levels- than the one which created and spread the worship of a Desert "God" throughout the world.
Hellenism perceives Cosmos (KOSMOS, i.e. the Universe) as an ever-existing Being, which not only was not created by some "creator" God out of nothing (EK TOU MEDENOS), but on the contrary allowed the Gods themselves to be created through its procedures. Hellenism understands Cosmos as APEIRON (Apeiron, Infinity) in great, wonderful order and therefore in Hellenic language Cosmos means also jewel (KOSMOS, KOSMENA). Gods were born inside the Cosmos and live inside it -they are part of it. This is our REAL dispute with the so-called "Monotheism;" not the number of Gods (One or Many, Mono- or Poly-) but where the God or Gods stand in relation to the Cosmos. For the "Monotheists" the Cosmos was created by an ever -existing Being outside it (so in this macro-historical level it is nothing more than a mortal creation). For the "Monotheists" Cosmos is a creation that has to obey the laws of its "creator". For us Hellenes, the eternal Cosmos emerges always from inside of itself (ANADYETAI AFS EAUTOU) and is the creator of all Gods, which have to obey its own laws. In the Hellenic Cosmotheory, these laws are :
ANTIPEPONTHOS Untranslatable into English, but roughly meaning "all events influence others" thought without "cause and effect",
NOMOS The entirey of the universal physical Laws), and
ANAKE (Need and Fate), which all Gods respect and obey.
Due to the eternal nature of Cosmos itself, the Hellenic perception of KRONOS (Time) is not linear (as the followers of Yahweh or the modern "rationalists" declare), nor circular (as many judeo-born occult dogmas teach) through the OUROBOROS symbol (the tail-eater snake), but spiral and leading to APEIRON. Through this shape of Time, the annual circles, the lunar circles, the human (and all) life, and the art of Prophecy, are fully interpreted. History is never "repeated", just similar to the point that identical events happen but always under different circumstances. And the death of humans (and of all mortal forms of life) happens as the philosopher Alkmaion declared, simply "because it is impossible for the end of the circle to touch the beginning". In other words, because it is impossible for the old to become infants again.
For the Hellenic Tradition, or at least its part not yet influenced by the "moral" ideas brought over from eastern civilizations by some famous philosophers as Pythagoras and Plato, no such thing as the "karma" of the eastern theocrats exists, and no "judges" exist in the skies or elsewhere. All dead become automatically holy and then they are born again until through ARETE (Virtue) one day their PSYCHE escapes from the spiral of Time, thus becoming primitive God, DAIMON, a word with a positive meaning for Hellenes, in contrast with Judeo-Christain superstition. HERAKLES (Hercules) is the ultimate symbol of this struggle of each mortal to make his / her way to Olympus, among the Immortal Ones. Hercules is the ultimate symbol for all Hellenes of the past and the present. No, we do not believe in METEMPSYCHOSIS (Re-incarnation) suffering or prospering in this life to pay for or be rewarded for the bad or good actions of previous lives, but instead simply in PALIGENESIA (Rebirth). This perspective distinguishes us from the theocratic dogmas that terrify their believers with "punishments" e.t.c. We love or hate completely outside the Judeo-Christian or karmic designs and dualisms. No dualism of "Good and Evil" exists in the Immortal Cosmos, nor such things as the miscellaneous "moralities" that all the dualistic dogmas spread among humanity. We become virtuous only because we choose to be such.
Our Gods are many and we understand them as completing the make-up of the Universal Sphere of Cosmos to its maximum potential and whole. Thus, from the DODEKAEDRON, a geometric shape (that fills up the sphere to its maximum) we imagine twelve planes, each one presenting a God inside the Cosmos and we define our Hellenic PANTHEON (PAN TON THEON, All The Gods) as DODEKATHEON (Pantheon of The Twelve Gods).The Twelve Gods of ours live inside the Shpere of Cosmos and form its various behaviors. In the same way, the twelve Zodiacs represent twelve "energies" that reach Earth and live inside the humans and animals, thus forming various behaviors as well.
Our Twelve Gods are also called OLYMPIOI (the Olympians) not because, as many want to believe, they.. dwell on Mt. Olympus, as the mountains with this name numbered not one but eighteen throughout the Hellenic World. This is just a poetic conception, similar to the one that wants Pan to dwell in the forests of Arcadia. The word "Olympus" comes from the verb LAMPO (shining). Our Twelve Gods are the "Shining Ones", and the real "Olympus" is not a geographical but a spiritual place, where the Gods really exist.
Another fact worth noting is that these Twelve Gods are not the same Twelve Gods for all Hellenes as some leave Dionysos out, some leave Hestia, etc., replacing them with others. It is the number that counts, not the names of the Gods which in any case number in the thousands- and we must underline here that Hellenism honors and worships not only conscious forces and energies of Nature (as almost all Pagan religions do) but also abstract Ideas, such as Harmony, Eunomia (personified Order), Justice, Freedom, Beauty, Luck, etc. For us, the Ideas are alive and have form and consciousness; they are real deities that simply show themselves through the functions of the human mind.
A basic ("for beginners") form of invocation of the Twelve Olympian Gods, a Pantheon that was worshiped at least since the 16th Century before the Judeo-Christian Era (they are named U-ru-pa-ja-jo in the Linear B inscription of Pylos), and openly until the 9th Century of our times (when the last remains of worship of the ethnic Hellenic Gods were exterminated in Lakonia, under the persecutions by "Saint" Nikon the so-called "Metanoite" i.e. "Repent") is the following:
(The Gods are being invoked in "couples" according to the elements and functions that each "couple" supervises).
* Hestia (the power or denization and of common ethos: all invocations start with her named first: " AF’ HESTIA"
* The honored God or Goddess of the hellenic lunar month
* Hephaistos - Hestia (alternatively: Hermes - Hestia)
* Ares - Aphrodite
* Apollo - Artemis
* Hermes - Athena (alternatively: Hephaistos - Athena)
* Poseidon - Demeter
* Hera - Zeus
We must emphasize here that the "male" and "female" terms inside the Hellenic Pantheon have nothing to do with the sexism and dualism dwelling in the minds of narrow-minded followers of alien cultures. Our Gods have no genitals. The existence of six Gods and six Goddesses inside the Hellenic Pantheon only serves to declare the total balance of all elements and characteristics inside the Sphere of Cosmos. Understanding the structure, nature and distribution of the Cosmos in this way, Hellenism comes in open opposition to all one-sided and partial dogmas on Cosmos, such as "Monotheism", "Bitheism" e.t.c. Because of this, for centuries now, it has been attacked with all the weapons that the arsenal of its enemies contains, from the burnings and crucifixions by the christianized Romans of Contantinoupolis to the disinformation and slander of the modern servants of the Desert "God" Yahweh (in all their disguises). And it may sound odd, but both we and our enemies know that the power of Hellenism is more than that of a Cosmotheory or of a Religion. It's above all a political and social "how to" theory that means to "haunt" the Every Day Life with its high principles: Dignity, Freedom, Beauty, Honesty, Variety, Tolerance, Candor..
We represent an ethos and a cosmotheory, both deeply admirable, for they never allowed the existence of priestly castes, unquestioning obedience, fear or guilt (Hellenism knows nothing about the word "sin"), dogma, missions, or "sacred" books. We are fighting for the Hellenic Dignity in a country totally dominated by an alien culture and cosmotheory, inside a world which is totally dominated by an alien culture and cosmotheory. We speak a language in which most of its deep meanings are impossible to translate into the widely spoken languages of today, a language that almost nobody can understand (nobody outside Greece can read our journal and books). From a strictly "strategic" perspective, we appear almost insane or, at least, "defeated in advance". But we know that we tread the correct path and that the Gods support us. Just by existing we win !
We are the revenge of the Ancient Psyche. We call into question almost every thought and act of this dying world enslaved to the Desert "God" Yahweh, almost every single behavior. And we are in full solidarity with all groups and movements all around the Globe, which work for the restoration of their traditional / indigenous ethos and religions, and also with all the others which fight the multi-faceted war for Freedom, Tolerance, Respect for Nature and Direct Democracy in all levels of Every Day Life.
A Definition of Polytheism
(Scroll Of Oplontis, 1991)
The word "Polytheism" is derived from the Greek words POLY (many) and THEOS (God) and means "worship of many Gods". Polytheism is therefore defined as a belief in the existence of many Gods. It is the idea that there are many divine powers. It is the idea that divinity ultimately resides in many separate entities or beings.
There are many Gods and Goddesses. The Gods are the greatest and most powerful beings. They are wise and just. They are immortal. They are worthy of respect and adoration.
The Gods have many forms and they can reveal themselves in many ways. They are both immanent and transcendent. They are present in the elements and forms of Being. They are manifest in the forces of Nature, in matter and energy, but they are also transcendent beings not bound by any material form. The Gods can reveal themselves within the human or other beings, as plants or animals, or as material objects. There are no limits of form or being upon the Gods an Goddesses. They are what they choose to be.
Divinity is multiple and various, both in appearance and in reality. No single God or Goddess hides behind all the multitude of divine forms. The Gods and Goddesses are objectively real entities whose existence is not dependent upon the beliefs or actions of lesser beings. They are not archetypes. They are not imaginary symbols of human activity or of the human mind. They are not symbolic representations of natural events and processes.
The Gods and Goddesses are real. They exist. Their wisdom and power give shape to this World, to this certain form of Cosmos. Their beauty and grace will last forever.
The Gods and Goddesses are free and independent beings. They are equally divine. They are not controlled by any other entity or power.
The Gods and Goddesses are pleased when lesser beings FREELY acknowledge their existence and offer them respect and worship. They do not though need or require this acknowledgment. The all powerful Gods and Goddesses need nothing. They simply form whatever they desire.
-
cowboyangel
- Posts: 6986
- Joined: Fri May 14, 2004 10:32 pm
-
Apollonaris Zeus
- Posts: 3716
- Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 11:17 am
-
Apollonaris Zeus
- Posts: 3716
- Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 11:17 am
Someone's requested more info on Hellenicism. Remember our mythology is just that: myths. They were not written by priests or priestesses for that is not their role, but is the role of chroniclers, documentors and historians. Myths are written by poets and are meant to be metaphors for everyday ethos. We don't have a bible or book of any sort. Bibles have a way of bitting you in the ass for your diffinatives and declarations of which recently the mormons and christian are finding themselves in now.
I would do a search on hellenism, greek gods, worship to find the sites- but here is a few:
www.sponde.com
http://r.webring.com/hub?ring=gordianknotwebri
I you have been babtissed and still have your lovey certificate stick it on the Man and burn it away. That will destroy your convenent. If you were babtized as a child then you made no agreement with Christ and therefore are not obligated, but burn whatever documents you do have just to send a message that no God owns your soul, but they don't really anyway, but agreements are agreements!
Don't sell your soul to the devil, erh, christ.
***Greek gods prepare for comeback***
Helena Smith in Athens
Friday May 5, 2006
The Guardian
It has taken almost 2,000 years, but those who worship the 12 gods of ancient Greece have finally triumphed. An Athens court has ordered that the adulation of Zeus, Hera, Hermes, Athena and co is to be unbanned, paving the way for a comeback of pagans on Mount Olympus.
The followers, who say they "defend the genuine traditions, religion and ethos" of the ancients by adhering to a pre-Christian polytheistic culture, are poised to take their battle to the temples of Greece.
Article continues
"What we want, now, is for the government to fully recognise our religion," Vasillis Tsantilas told the Guardian. "We will petition the Greek parliament, and the EU if that fails, for access to worship in places like the Acropolis, for permission to have our own cemeteries and, where necessary, to re-bury the [ancient] bones of the dead.
About 98% of Greeks are Orthodox Christian, and all other religions except Judaism and Islam had been banned.
Yet the pagans say as many as 2,000 Greeks have signed up to their movement. Mr Tsantilas, 42, a computer scientist who came to paganism after toying with Buddhism, Taoism and Islam, said worshippers perceived the ancient gods as the "personification of the divine".
But Greece's powerful Orthodox Church takes a less charitable view, accusing the worshippers of idolatry and "poisonous New Age practices".
Father Eustathios Kollas, who presides over the community of Greek priests, said: "They are a handful of miserable resuscitators of a degenerate dead religion who wish to return to the monstrous dark delusions of the past."
***end of article***
Don't worry about Father Eustathios he has a very big problem now the that the world has learned the truth about Mary Magdalen and how the Peter was bent on her destruction. I think he was queer for christ and was envious of her in her marriage to Jesus.
The priests at the Council of Nycaea must have been misogynous.
Hey there you go a new activist group name- "Queers for Christ"
And I'm glad I said it!
I would do a search on hellenism, greek gods, worship to find the sites- but here is a few:
www.sponde.com
http://r.webring.com/hub?ring=gordianknotwebri
the image is your spirituality, nor your physical shell.freakersedge wrote:I was stopped by the powers of burningman discussion from asking "if we are created in Gods image, does that image include the way it thinks", in another thread, so Does your image include the way you think? I can't say that it does with mere mortals, myself included but perhaps with the advancement of philosophy we will eventually get to see hows Gods image is reflected in our thoughts and actions.
freaker
Hell and Heaven are convenents that christians and only christians agree to when they take Jesus for their savoir. Fuck up and its eternal damnation. That is the agreement they and only they can make!BigCock wrote:None of the choices you offered worked for me AZ, but a revision of #2 would:
There is such an entity as a God, and when you die your spirit either persists in the hearts of the living (heaven) or is forgotten (hell).
I you have been babtissed and still have your lovey certificate stick it on the Man and burn it away. That will destroy your convenent. If you were babtized as a child then you made no agreement with Christ and therefore are not obligated, but burn whatever documents you do have just to send a message that no God owns your soul, but they don't really anyway, but agreements are agreements!
Don't sell your soul to the devil, erh, christ.
***Greek gods prepare for comeback***
Helena Smith in Athens
Friday May 5, 2006
The Guardian
It has taken almost 2,000 years, but those who worship the 12 gods of ancient Greece have finally triumphed. An Athens court has ordered that the adulation of Zeus, Hera, Hermes, Athena and co is to be unbanned, paving the way for a comeback of pagans on Mount Olympus.
The followers, who say they "defend the genuine traditions, religion and ethos" of the ancients by adhering to a pre-Christian polytheistic culture, are poised to take their battle to the temples of Greece.
Article continues
"What we want, now, is for the government to fully recognise our religion," Vasillis Tsantilas told the Guardian. "We will petition the Greek parliament, and the EU if that fails, for access to worship in places like the Acropolis, for permission to have our own cemeteries and, where necessary, to re-bury the [ancient] bones of the dead.
About 98% of Greeks are Orthodox Christian, and all other religions except Judaism and Islam had been banned.
Yet the pagans say as many as 2,000 Greeks have signed up to their movement. Mr Tsantilas, 42, a computer scientist who came to paganism after toying with Buddhism, Taoism and Islam, said worshippers perceived the ancient gods as the "personification of the divine".
But Greece's powerful Orthodox Church takes a less charitable view, accusing the worshippers of idolatry and "poisonous New Age practices".
Father Eustathios Kollas, who presides over the community of Greek priests, said: "They are a handful of miserable resuscitators of a degenerate dead religion who wish to return to the monstrous dark delusions of the past."
***end of article***
Don't worry about Father Eustathios he has a very big problem now the that the world has learned the truth about Mary Magdalen and how the Peter was bent on her destruction. I think he was queer for christ and was envious of her in her marriage to Jesus.
The priests at the Council of Nycaea must have been misogynous.
Hey there you go a new activist group name- "Queers for Christ"
And I'm glad I said it!
-
diane o'thirst
- Posts: 2092
- Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2003 5:04 pm
- Location: Eugene, OR
- Contact:
I was talking with my friend last night. She had a couple interesting points I'd like to throw on the table for discussion.
One of the things she said was, "How old is Islam? About 800 years old. What were the Christians doing 800 years after they started up?" I replied that they were entering the Carolingian Empire Era and actively supressing and persecuting the traditional nature religions. Charlemagne himself chopped down and razed sacred groves in France; his army took more. In short, Christianity was bringing about the Dark Ages in its fervour. My friend said that she had a theory that Islam was entering <i>their</i> Dark Ages.
Now a theory is a theory but this one sounded reasonable to me and it would certainly explain a few things, such as the practice of suicide bombing, death-by-inches, execution by decapitation and even marriage-by-rape. Islam, like Judaeism, is in the Abrahamic family of religions. To give some examples, the Judaeic Old Testament approves of the practices of genocide, rape (to take a wife you only need to seize and rape a woman, and pay 50 shekels to her father) and slavery (you could also rape female slaves and take them as your wife, and there was no way she could stop being a slave except to die). And just to allay any accusations of singling out Muslims, I point to the growing Dominionist movement in the United States which is working towards young-turking the law of the land towards an Old Testament model code. Taking a glance through the Pentateuch would have most modern, moderate Americans scream and faint.
Thing is, the Christians have already undergone a period in their history where extreme fundamentalism was practiced, and then twisted and abused into the horrors of the very aptly-named Dark Ages. Applying the Hellenic ideal of time-as-a-spiral adds an interesting note to the current Dominionist movement: true, they share the ideals and some of the practices of the Puritans but it's a different context. There are more people now, widespread communication is a lot less difficult, meaning they have more manpower and economy to draw upon. The worst the Puritans could do was tie a bunch of people to a pole and burn them alive; 9/11 killed more people in one day than the whole of the Salem Witch Trials did in its entire run, and if you count together all the victims of just the ongoing suicide- and car-bombing campaign I think you'd find the number close to that of the Inquisition's tally, if not exceeding it.
One of the things she said was, "How old is Islam? About 800 years old. What were the Christians doing 800 years after they started up?" I replied that they were entering the Carolingian Empire Era and actively supressing and persecuting the traditional nature religions. Charlemagne himself chopped down and razed sacred groves in France; his army took more. In short, Christianity was bringing about the Dark Ages in its fervour. My friend said that she had a theory that Islam was entering <i>their</i> Dark Ages.
Now a theory is a theory but this one sounded reasonable to me and it would certainly explain a few things, such as the practice of suicide bombing, death-by-inches, execution by decapitation and even marriage-by-rape. Islam, like Judaeism, is in the Abrahamic family of religions. To give some examples, the Judaeic Old Testament approves of the practices of genocide, rape (to take a wife you only need to seize and rape a woman, and pay 50 shekels to her father) and slavery (you could also rape female slaves and take them as your wife, and there was no way she could stop being a slave except to die). And just to allay any accusations of singling out Muslims, I point to the growing Dominionist movement in the United States which is working towards young-turking the law of the land towards an Old Testament model code. Taking a glance through the Pentateuch would have most modern, moderate Americans scream and faint.
Thing is, the Christians have already undergone a period in their history where extreme fundamentalism was practiced, and then twisted and abused into the horrors of the very aptly-named Dark Ages. Applying the Hellenic ideal of time-as-a-spiral adds an interesting note to the current Dominionist movement: true, they share the ideals and some of the practices of the Puritans but it's a different context. There are more people now, widespread communication is a lot less difficult, meaning they have more manpower and economy to draw upon. The worst the Puritans could do was tie a bunch of people to a pole and burn them alive; 9/11 killed more people in one day than the whole of the Salem Witch Trials did in its entire run, and if you count together all the victims of just the ongoing suicide- and car-bombing campaign I think you'd find the number close to that of the Inquisition's tally, if not exceeding it.
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Zeus-
Thanks for "bumping" this thread Zeus. (I'm learning new internet terms.)
I thought it was funny to see the Asantaist, Atheist, and Gods thread all up at the top. I have to imagine some Eplayans are grinding their teeth!
I was reading over the Hellenist info from the Green Egg journal. I liked it and will probably print it for leisurely reading. It reads like a modern rendition. (Not a bad thing. Have to wish the Christians would try to modernize a bit.) So is this how the Ancient Greeks saw it?
Still not exactly clear on their take on Rebirth. I always thought that particular rendition of reincarnation (metempsychosis) was a dumbed down version, throwing in the idea of being rewarded or punished by some "lords of Karma". So are the Hellenist's indeed saying some version of a progression through multiple lives?
Thanks for "bumping" this thread Zeus. (I'm learning new internet terms.)
I thought it was funny to see the Asantaist, Atheist, and Gods thread all up at the top. I have to imagine some Eplayans are grinding their teeth!
I was reading over the Hellenist info from the Green Egg journal. I liked it and will probably print it for leisurely reading. It reads like a modern rendition. (Not a bad thing. Have to wish the Christians would try to modernize a bit.) So is this how the Ancient Greeks saw it?
Still not exactly clear on their take on Rebirth. I always thought that particular rendition of reincarnation (metempsychosis) was a dumbed down version, throwing in the idea of being rewarded or punished by some "lords of Karma". So are the Hellenist's indeed saying some version of a progression through multiple lives?
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Apollonaris Zeus
- Posts: 3716
- Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 11:17 am
We can use your help. Sadly in the county of Hellenics, we are not allowed to operate as a functioning religion because of the Orthodox Christian Church in Greece (OCCG). Read below.
Campaign to De-Criminalize the Worship of the Greek Gods in Greece
It is essential that the worship of the Greek Gods in Greece be de-criminalized for those people who wish to honour and follow the ancient Olympic Gods and traditions of their own country. Many people outside of Greece will be surprised to learn that the current followers of the ancient religion in Greece are to be counted in the many thousands and yet these people are denied many basic human rights according to the United Nations charter. These important basic rights include:
* The naming of children who are currently 'Christened' by the Orthodox Christian Church in Greece (OCCG) or not baptised at all. We feel that there should be a seperation between Church and State in these matters. People should of course inform the Civil authorities of births (marriages and deaths) but be allowed to perform a religious ceromony of their own choosing. There is of course a big "social" pressure to baptise children in the OCCG
* The disposal of our own human remains after death. At the moment we are obliged to be buried in Greece, and for many of us this is abhorrent. Our normal and preferred way to dispose of our own remains is cremation. We would at least ask for our own cemeteries or our own areas in cemeteries like other non OCCG faiths.
* Compulsory religious education of our children in Greek schools. According to our 'philosophy' schools are a place for the educations of young minds and not a place for the indocritination of children by any one religious organistion. It will be a better world when all children can be friends whatever their faith happens to be. Although our children may withdraw from this compulsory religious education, they are made to feel "different" and there is social pressure to take part in this religious instruction by the OCCG.
* Discrimination in the workplace. Followers of the Greek Gods and indeed many other mainstream religions in Greece are disciminated against in the work place and in particular in the civil service and military.
* Discrimination from the pulpits of the OCCG whose priests and bishops publicly demonise us, ridicule us, and monitor our activities.
* Denial of the right to a place of worship or temple for peaceful public assembly for prayer and worship. We are not allowed in practice to own our own temples although the Greek Constitution (Article 13) theoretically allows this.
* Denial of the right to form a legally recognised group (legal entity) which can own properties such as places of worship and benefit from the normal advantages of a legally recognised religious group.
The above points illustrate that modern Greece is not a secular society as many might think, and as indeed the EU would prefer to see throughout Europe Union member countries. There is in fact such a close bond between Church and State in Greece that the two are strongly interwoven and to all inspection inseperable. It is in many way because of this 'non-secular' arrangement in Greece that many of the probelms of the followers of the Greek Gods highlighted above arise in the first place. For many years the followers of the Greek Gods have suffered quietly, unable to do anything about the very difficult situation they find themselves in. One might have thought that now Greece is a full European Union member the situation would of changed for the better. Sadly this is not the case and therefore the 'campaign' is now hoping to make a real improvement in this situation during the first decade of the new millenium.
At the moment the situation is one of real state intimidation in Greece for all those people who worship the ancient Gods of Greece - even in the privacy of their own homes. A five year prison sentence could be imposed on people who organise worship or meetings in their homes since this is interpreted as using the home as a temple. As stated above, permission to build a temple is denied in practice although article 13 of the Greek Constitution theoretically makes provision for this. This state enforced intimidation is an obvious abuse of human rights and the 'freedom of conscience' (as declared by the Council of Europe) of this significant group of people who number in the thousands. The basic human right to assemble for worship is an extremely important one for all spiritual human beings. It is quite unbelievable for many people outside of Greece to think that a government of a European Union country who has signed the 'declaration of human rights' can act in this way against so many its own people who are law abiding and peaceful in their activities and their protest.
This is the birthplace of democracy and yet it doesn't exist here.
Can you write a letter to your congressman please.
AIIZ
Campaign to De-Criminalize the Worship of the Greek Gods in Greece
It is essential that the worship of the Greek Gods in Greece be de-criminalized for those people who wish to honour and follow the ancient Olympic Gods and traditions of their own country. Many people outside of Greece will be surprised to learn that the current followers of the ancient religion in Greece are to be counted in the many thousands and yet these people are denied many basic human rights according to the United Nations charter. These important basic rights include:
* The naming of children who are currently 'Christened' by the Orthodox Christian Church in Greece (OCCG) or not baptised at all. We feel that there should be a seperation between Church and State in these matters. People should of course inform the Civil authorities of births (marriages and deaths) but be allowed to perform a religious ceromony of their own choosing. There is of course a big "social" pressure to baptise children in the OCCG
* The disposal of our own human remains after death. At the moment we are obliged to be buried in Greece, and for many of us this is abhorrent. Our normal and preferred way to dispose of our own remains is cremation. We would at least ask for our own cemeteries or our own areas in cemeteries like other non OCCG faiths.
* Compulsory religious education of our children in Greek schools. According to our 'philosophy' schools are a place for the educations of young minds and not a place for the indocritination of children by any one religious organistion. It will be a better world when all children can be friends whatever their faith happens to be. Although our children may withdraw from this compulsory religious education, they are made to feel "different" and there is social pressure to take part in this religious instruction by the OCCG.
* Discrimination in the workplace. Followers of the Greek Gods and indeed many other mainstream religions in Greece are disciminated against in the work place and in particular in the civil service and military.
* Discrimination from the pulpits of the OCCG whose priests and bishops publicly demonise us, ridicule us, and monitor our activities.
* Denial of the right to a place of worship or temple for peaceful public assembly for prayer and worship. We are not allowed in practice to own our own temples although the Greek Constitution (Article 13) theoretically allows this.
* Denial of the right to form a legally recognised group (legal entity) which can own properties such as places of worship and benefit from the normal advantages of a legally recognised religious group.
The above points illustrate that modern Greece is not a secular society as many might think, and as indeed the EU would prefer to see throughout Europe Union member countries. There is in fact such a close bond between Church and State in Greece that the two are strongly interwoven and to all inspection inseperable. It is in many way because of this 'non-secular' arrangement in Greece that many of the probelms of the followers of the Greek Gods highlighted above arise in the first place. For many years the followers of the Greek Gods have suffered quietly, unable to do anything about the very difficult situation they find themselves in. One might have thought that now Greece is a full European Union member the situation would of changed for the better. Sadly this is not the case and therefore the 'campaign' is now hoping to make a real improvement in this situation during the first decade of the new millenium.
At the moment the situation is one of real state intimidation in Greece for all those people who worship the ancient Gods of Greece - even in the privacy of their own homes. A five year prison sentence could be imposed on people who organise worship or meetings in their homes since this is interpreted as using the home as a temple. As stated above, permission to build a temple is denied in practice although article 13 of the Greek Constitution theoretically makes provision for this. This state enforced intimidation is an obvious abuse of human rights and the 'freedom of conscience' (as declared by the Council of Europe) of this significant group of people who number in the thousands. The basic human right to assemble for worship is an extremely important one for all spiritual human beings. It is quite unbelievable for many people outside of Greece to think that a government of a European Union country who has signed the 'declaration of human rights' can act in this way against so many its own people who are law abiding and peaceful in their activities and their protest.
This is the birthplace of democracy and yet it doesn't exist here.
Can you write a letter to your congressman please.
AIIZ
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Apollonaris Zeus
- Posts: 3716
- Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 11:17 am
It was after the Council of Nycaea that everything changed- see persecution of the hellenes one on page 6 of this thread. We were the educators of the ancient world. We had spread the light of knowledge in social-political, natural and economic sciences. But Emperor Constantinediane o'thirst wrote: In short, Christianity was bringing about the Dark Ages in its fervour. My friend said that she had a theory that Islam was entering <i>their</i> Dark Ages.
had to pay a debt to the christians and needed to rid his empire of the pagans to ensure that an uprising of another Roman general using pagans didn't rise up against him.
The Church had to consolidate its control by enacting genocide upon the pagans. If you have a religion that basically says you don't go to a hell or that you don't have to follow any religion at all and still ascent, well how do you get your followers to do your dirty work and die for you. How do you get them to donate lots of money for their pendance is none is required? and if these thoughts persist thought enlighten education and libraries then you have to destroy all the things that are associated with them. basically they had to create the dark ages to accomplish the goal. Destroy the Godess and kill every strong willed woman was a part of that plan. Make them think that all sex is bad.
Islam too went from a progressive freethinking religion- who was it that discovered algebra- many of their great thinkers were taught in greek universities centuries before and exported to regions outside christian dominance. But that too had change when the Caliphates took control. The Caliphates were to burn the library of Alexandria just like the Christians had done several centuries earlier! Wow talk about parallel development! Seeing that in order for it too to survive from high intelligent rationalization both had to stupify masses in order to maintain their grasp. Both are dependent on ignorant followers to continue.
more then several million people died because of the Christians and we have lost for ever the advancements that could have taken place!diane o'thirst wrote:9/11 killed more people in one day than the whole of the Salem Witch Trials did in its entire run, and if you count together all the victims of just the ongoing suicide- and car-bombing campaign I think you'd find the number close to that of the Inquisition's tally, if not exceeding it.
Just last week an asteroid came within 60,000 miles it and several other are coming closer on each pass. Within 15 years these space rocks are expected to hit the earth and we don't have the technology to stop them. Global warming is soon to release the frozen methane hydrate gas under the seas and permafrost- permafrost is already melting now.
Because of those stupid fucking christians morons, let us include the fucking romans too since they destroyed the advance of the greek states as well, that gave us the dark ages, extinction of the human race is upon us and we don't have anyway to stop it. Even if we stopped using all fossil fuels right now the momentum created will take decades to stop because the earth is in a natural warming phase anyway.
yes! It is an upward movement. But you are not coming back as you are now just better and better.dana wrote: I have to imagine some Eplayans are grinding their teeth![/qoute]
Oh, I thought that grinding sound was from all the ectasy.
They can't really unless they throw out both old and new testaments and they can't. How do you tell the world that they are the words straight from God then explain why it must be revised? How do explain that Jesus had a wife and not whore after all and the founding fathers of the faith were misogynists. You can't because that say's we were never on the right path from the beginning. It can't be redone because you can't fool the masses once the cat is out of the bag. They're essentially fucked now.dana wrote: I have to wish the Christians would try to modernize a bit.
dana wrote: So are the Hellenist's indeed saying some version of a progression through multiple lives?
did you see the opening ceremonies of the winter olympics. If not take a look at them:
http://www.torino2006.org/bin/OlympicGa ... agebig.jpg
See the spiral cauldron. That is us. That is our symbol. You will see more of it in the future. Our following is much greater in Italy then in Greece because of the continued persecution continuing in Greece. The Church there would never had allowed it! We have many members from all over the world including peter gabriel- he sung praise of the spiral "a staircase that spiral into the sky!"- listen to Carpet Crawlers. I like the new 1999 version. He sang in the opening ceremony. Here are the words.
"Carpet Crawlers" 1974 from the "The Lamb Lies down on Broadway" Album
There is lambswool under my naked feet.
The wool is soft and warm,
- gives off some kind of heat.
A salamander scurries into flame to be destroyed.
Imaginary creatures are trapped in birth on celluloid.
The fleas cling to the golden fleece,
Hoping they'll find peace.
Each thought and gesture are caught in celluloid.
There's no hiding in my memory.
There's no room to a void.
The crawlers cover the floor in the red ochre corridor.
For my second sight of people, they've more lifeblood than before.
They're moving in time to a heavy wooden door,
Where the needle's eye is winking, closing in on the poor.
The carpet crawlers heed their callers:
"We've got to get in to get out
We've got to get in to get out
We've got to get in to get out."
There's only one direction in the faces that I see;
It's upward to the ceiling, where the chamber's said to be.
Like the forest fight for sunlight, that takes root in every tree.
They are pulled up by the magnet, believing they're free.
The carpet crawlers heed their callers:
"We've got to get in to get out
We've got to get in to get out
We've got to get in to get out."
Mild mannered supermen are held in kryptonite,
And the wise and foolish virgins giggle with their bodies glowing bright.
Through a door a harvest feast is lit by candlelight;
It's the bottom of a staircase that spirals out of sight.
The carpet crawlers heed their callers:
"We've got to get in to get out
We've got to get in to get out
We've got to get in to get out."
The porcelain mannikin with shattered skin fears attack.
The eager pack lift up their pitchers - they carry all they lack.
The liquid has congealed, which has seeped out through the crack,
And the tickler takes his stickleback.
The carpet crawlers heed their callers:
"We've got to get in to get out
We've got to get in to get out
We've got to get in to get out."
you can see the many references to our religion, golden fleece, especially, "There's no hiding in my memory. There's no room to a void." and the upward spiral.
You don't come back to be the same, but you are only a shadow of your previous self- meaning you are to become so much more. Even the very ancient greek spoke of "a shadow of your former self".
We heed our callers for they beckon us to join them!
You got to get in TO GET OUT!
AIIZ
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joel the ornery
- Posts: 2657
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