Write your congressman, ask for a rewrite of the Patriot Act

Apollonaris Zeus · Post by **Apollonaris Zeus** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 9:26 pm

Joel,
Once you take away the eyes and hands, its kinda makes me (h)ornery too! But I guess you saw that too?

So Joel my ask you some advice- that to Simple Joe, OK!

What should I do about the Bozeman Police lying about me to my family.

This had happened when I left Montana to surprise my family during Christmas when I left without telling them that I was heading to see them.
My sister was tried to contact me after my mom was worried that she couldn't get in touch with me.

So my sister called the her a family friend that was a cop there. He made a courtesy call to the Bozeman Police. What the Bozeman Police told him was a fabricated shocking lie.

1- That I was belligerent to the police on many occasions, but I was OK when I was on my Meds.

2- that I was a Hermit and didn’t socialize in the community.

3- That they have found me passed out on the street several times.

4- That when they had sent an office to check on me at my office, I was abusively and expletively loud yelling cursively that the I didn’t ask the cops to check up on me.

Joel, I have never been belligerent to a cop in my life. I have never even argued with a cop in a belligerent way to a cop. I respect every cop on a one to one basis even when they were the ones being overtly aggressive.

I am no hermit, but a extrovert. You can find me dancing at clubs several days a week or participating in many social events in town- including many of my art shows.

I have never been passed out anywhere in town or at BM.

On the day they were to supposedly have checked up at my at my office- I was in the process of moving out of the office, I wasn’t even there but was at a friends or at the coffee shop depening on the exact time. If I had been there I had someone with me helping me to move.

So Joel what rights of mine have been violated and what legal action am I entitled to take?

So you think I’m being little paranoid!

AIIZ

joel the ornery · Post by **joel the ornery** » Sat Feb 25, 2006 4:44 am

Apollonaris Zeus wrote:Joel,
Once you take away the eyes and hands, its kinda makes me (h)ornery too! But I guess you saw that too?

So Joel my ask you some advice- that to Simple Joe, OK!

What should I do about the Bozeman Police lying about me to my family.

This had happened when I left Montana to surprise my family during Christmas when I left without telling them that I was heading to see them.
My sister was tried to contact me after my mom was worried that she couldn't get in touch with me.

So my sister called the her a family friend that was a cop there. He made a courtesy call to the Bozeman Police. What the Bozeman Police told him was a fabricated shocking lie.

1- That I was belligerent to the police on many occasions, but I was OK when I was on my Meds.

ask for a police report from Bozeman... actually, ask a lawyer to call for the police reports.

Apollonaris Zeus wrote:2- that I was a Hermit and didn’t socialize in the community.

that isn't against the law, who cares? you shouldn't IMHO.

Apollonaris Zeus wrote:3- That they have found me passed out on the street several times.

definately ask for a police report. copies of the officer's notes.

Apollonaris Zeus wrote:4- That when they had sent an office to check on me at my office, I was abusively and expletively loud yelling cursively that the I didn’t ask the cops to check up on me.

ask for a police report.

Apollonaris Zeus wrote:Joel, I have never been belligerent to a cop in my life. I have never even argued with a cop in a belligerent way to a cop. I respect every cop on a one to one basis even when they were the ones being overtly aggressive.

I am no hermit, but a extrovert. You can find me dancing at clubs several days a week or participating in many social events in town- including many of my art shows.

I have never been passed out anywhere in town or at BM.

On the day they were to supposedly have checked up at my at my office- I was in the process of moving out of the office, I wasn’t even there but was at a friends or at the coffee shop depening on the exact time. If I had been there I had someone with me helping me to move.

So Joel what rights of mine have been violated and what legal action am I entitled to take?

So you think I’m being little paranoid!

AIIZ

yes, actually i do think you are being paranoid.

bottom line, to deal with LEO you have to jump into their game which requires a lawyer... if you spend the money on the lawyer, the LEO and courts will take you seriously. no lawyer, no deal. (not my rule, just my observation)

what rights have been violated?

from what i read maybe your right to privacy has been violated, but otherwise, all that crap is heresay in the court... in the court of public opinion, it quite another matter.

did you family friend LEO ask for any copies of the reports? but not an FBI report, keep your inquiries at a local level.

of all the things you listed, you might have a harrassment complaint, but it would be hard to prove. you have to have concrete evidence.

if there are other females being treated in the same manner in Bozeman, you might find a lawyer willing to discuss a class action case, but that would require a lot of footwork to find others in your same position.

as i have written on this board previously, i hide in plain sight... remain courteous to LEO... and go along my merry way... and no, the statute of limitations hasn't expired for my extra-legal behaviors (which won't be listed here)

here are three simple rules regarding LEO:

deny everything
admit nothing
and most of all DEMAND EVIDENCE (politely)

while i consider your situation serious, i believe most of it could have been avoided with less suspicion, contempt and distrust towards LEOs.

but that is just my opinion.

simply joel - joel the ornery... same guy, different dispositions.

Apollonaris Zeus · Post by **Apollonaris Zeus** » Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:15 am

Yes, but you fail to see the underlying motive for them to say this other then slandering me.

Any action taken against me by any office including the use of firearms is justified based on the report given by this officer.

Basically, They are saying that I am unstable and unpredictable like the Una-bomber.

I have done anything illegal. But, I exposed them for what they are "corrupted".

All LEO's are corrupt some more some less but all are and this just one example of why we need checks an balance in place- polygraphs! That's the fact mam.

"if there are other females being treated in the same manner in Bozeman, you might find a lawyer willing to discuss a class action case, but that would require a lot of footwork to find others in your same position."

Why would it be limited to just females?

AIIZ

joel the ornery · Post by **joel the ornery** » Sat Feb 25, 2006 3:52 pm

"Why would it be limited to just females?"

because women are protected as a minority... caucasion males (and i assume Bozeman to be very caucasion) are not.

"All LEO's are corrupt some more some less but all are and this just one example of why we need checks an balance in place- polygraphs!"

yeah, i can't imagine why any LEO would consider you... shall we say "troubled."

from what you have written, i can only surmise that you have created this issue, so deal with it.

i don't subsribe to your distrust for LEO.

i have given you my position and some "won't cost you a dime" recommendations.

go forth and prosper.

Apollonaris Zeus · Post by **Apollonaris Zeus** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 6:53 am

This is a letter that I recieved from someone that frequents eplaya. It is about as confusing as most of the points this person makes;

Recently, a California website ran an e-mail forum (a question and answer exchange) where the topic was "Policing the Community." One of the civilian email participants posed the following question: "I would like to know how it is possible for police officers to continually harass people and get away with it?" From the "other side" (the law enforcement side) a cool cop with a sense of humor replied: It is not easy. In California we average one cop for every 2,000 people. About 60% of those cops are on patrol, where we do most of the harassing. One-fifth of that 60% are on duty at any given moment and are available for harassing people. So, one cop is responsible for harassing about 10,000 residents. When you toss in the commercial, business and tourist locations that attract people from other areas, sometimes you have a situation where a single cop is responsible for harassing 20,000 or more people each day. A ten-hour shift runs 36,000 seconds. This gives a cop one second to harass a person, and three-fourths of a second to eat a donut AND then find a new person to harass. This is not an easy task. Most cops are not up to it, day in and day out. It is just too tiring. What we do is utilize some tools to help us narrow down those people which we harass. They are as follows:

PHONE: People will call us up and point out things that cause us to focus on a person for special harassment. "My neighbor is beating his wife" is a code phrase we use. Then we come out and give special harassment. Another popular one on a weeknight is, "The kids next door are having a loud party."

CARS: We have special cops assigned to harass people who drive. They like to harass the drivers of fast cars, cars blasting music, cars with expired registration stickers and the like. It is lots of fun when you pick them out of traffic for nothing more obvious than running a red light. Sometimes you get to really heap the harassment on when you find they have drugs in the car, are driving drunk, or they have an outstanding warrant.

RUNNERS: Some people take off running just at the sight of a police officer. Nothing is quite as satisfying as running after them like a beagle on the scent of a bunny. When you catch them you can harass them for hours.

LAWS: When you can think of nothing else to do, there are books that give ideas for reasons to harass folks. They are called "Laws" - Penal, Vehicle, Health and Safety, Business and Professional Laws, to name just a few. They spell out all sorts of things for which you can really mess with people. After you read the law, you can just drive around for a while until you find someone violating one of these listed offenses and harass them. Just last week I saw a guy smash a car window. Well, the law says that is not allowed. That meant I got permission to harass this guy.
It is a pretty cool system that we have set up, and it works pretty well. We seem to have a never-ending supply of folks to harass. And we get away with it. Why? Because the good citizens who pay the tab actually like the fact that we keep the streets safe for them. Next time you are in my town, give me a single finger wave. That will be a signal that you wish for me to take a little closer look at you, and then maybe I'll find a reason to harass YOU! Looking forward to meeting you.

end of letter

Oh I get it, Its a joke!

What it doesn't answer is- the harassment of people that are doing nothing illegal except exposing those in Law Enforcement that are violating the civil rights of others of which this thread is all about.

Law enforcement lie, they abuse their powers and they need to be reeled in with manditory sentences! The law is most lenient when it applies to COPs!

AIIZ

PS- Joel- you didn't answer my question, "Why would it be limited to just females?"

joel the ornery · Post by **joel the ornery** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 9:13 am

because women are protected as a minority... caucasion males (and i assume Bozeman to be very caucasion) are not.

actuall, yes, i did answer your question...

i just didn't give you the answer you anticipated.

joel the ornery · Post by **joel the ornery** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 10:01 am

Apollonaris Zeus wrote:This is a letter that I recieved from someone that frequents eplaya. It is about as confusing as most of the points this person makes

Broadly speaking, the short words are the best, and the old words best of all. Sir Winston Churchill

Apollonaris Zeus wrote: Oh I get it

hardly.

Apollonaris Zeus wrote: What it doesn't answer is- the harassment of people that are doing nothing illegal except exposing those in Law Enforcement that are violating the civil rights of others of which this thread is all about.

pardon me, your paranoia is showing.

Apollonaris Zeus wrote: Law enforcement lie, they abuse their powers and they need to be reeled in with manditory sentences! The law is most lenient when it applies to COPs!

AIIZ

cites, other than your purely anecdotal evidence?

Apollonaris Zeus · Post by **Apollonaris Zeus** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 6:55 am

Sadly the Patriot Act has been reinstated for now after a good fight to repel most of it.

AIIZ

joel the ornery · Post by **joel the ornery** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 9:45 am

The “no” votes came from Jim Jeffords, I-Vt., and Feingold, Byrd and seven other Senate Democrats: Daniel Akaka of Hawaii, Jeff Bingaman of New Mexico, Tom Harkin of Iowa, Patrick Leahy of Vermont, Carl Levin of Michigan, Patty Murray of Washington and Ron Wyden of Oregon.

10 NO votes is a good fight?

Senate approves Patriot Act, hands Bush a victory

Apollonaris Zeus · Post by **Apollonaris Zeus** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:07 am

Except from article

"...G.O.P. Senators Say Accord Is Set on Wiretapping

By DAVID D. KIRKPATRICK
and SCOTT SHANE
Published: March 8, 2006
WASHINGTON, March 7 — Moving to tamp down Democratic calls for an investigation of the administration's domestic eavesdropping program, Republicans on the Senate Intelligence Committee said Tuesday that they had reached agreement with the White House on proposed bills to impose new oversight but allow wiretapping without warrants for up to 45 days..."

No warrants!
A free for all for investigating anyone for any reason. Alberto tells us that we can trust the admin, but the record says the opposite- From Harkin Oil, the Irag phantom WMD's, Dick's felony shotgun attack, the sell out of American Ports, this admin can never be trusted!

Every Wiretap needs oversight from an indepentent group of justices!

AIIZ

Apollonaris Zeus · Post by **Apollonaris Zeus** » Sun Jul 09, 2006 1:43 pm

We can use your help. Sadly in the county of Hellenics, we are not allowed to operate as a functioning religion because of the Orthodox Christian Church in Greece (OCCG). Read below.

Campaign to De-Criminalize the Worship of the Greek Gods in Greece

It is essential that the worship of the Greek Gods in Greece be de-criminalized for those people who wish to honour and follow the ancient Olympic Gods and traditions of their own country. Many people outside of Greece will be surprised to learn that the current followers of the ancient religion in Greece are to be counted in the many thousands and yet these people are denied many basic human rights according to the United Nations charter. These important basic rights include:

* The naming of children who are currently 'Christened' by the Orthodox Christian Church in Greece (OCCG) or not baptised at all. We feel that there should be a seperation between Church and State in these matters. People should of course inform the Civil authorities of births (marriages and deaths) but be allowed to perform a religious ceromony of their own choosing. There is of course a big "social" pressure to baptise children in the OCCG
* The disposal of our own human remains after death. At the moment we are obliged to be buried in Greece, and for many of us this is abhorrent. Our normal and preferred way to dispose of our own remains is cremation. We would at least ask for our own cemeteries or our own areas in cemeteries like other non OCCG faiths.
* Compulsory religious education of our children in Greek schools. According to our 'philosophy' schools are a place for the educations of young minds and not a place for the indocritination of children by any one religious organistion. It will be a better world when all children can be friends whatever their faith happens to be. Although our children may withdraw from this compulsory religious education, they are made to feel "different" and there is social pressure to take part in this religious instruction by the OCCG.
* Discrimination in the workplace. Followers of the Greek Gods and indeed many other mainstream religions in Greece are disciminated against in the work place and in particular in the civil service and military.
* Discrimination from the pulpits of the OCCG whose priests and bishops publicly demonise us, ridicule us, and monitor our activities.
* Denial of the right to a place of worship or temple for peaceful public assembly for prayer and worship. We are not allowed in practice to own our own temples although the Greek Constitution (Article 13) theoretically allows this.
* Denial of the right to form a legally recognised group (legal entity) which can own properties such as places of worship and benefit from the normal advantages of a legally recognised religious group.

The above points illustrate that modern Greece is not a secular society as many might think, and as indeed the EU would prefer to see throughout Europe Union member countries. There is in fact such a close bond between Church and State in Greece that the two are strongly interwoven and to all inspection inseperable. It is in many way because of this 'non-secular' arrangement in Greece that many of the probelms of the followers of the Greek Gods highlighted above arise in the first place. For many years the followers of the Greek Gods have suffered quietly, unable to do anything about the very difficult situation they find themselves in. One might have thought that now Greece is a full European Union member the situation would of changed for the better. Sadly this is not the case and therefore the 'campaign' is now hoping to make a real improvement in this situation during the first decade of the new millenium.

At the moment the situation is one of real state intimidation in Greece for all those people who worship the ancient Gods of Greece - even in the privacy of their own homes. A five year prison sentence could be imposed on people who organise worship or meetings in their homes since this is interpreted as using the home as a temple. As stated above, permission to build a temple is denied in practice although article 13 of the Greek Constitution theoretically makes provision for this. This state enforced intimidation is an obvious abuse of human rights and the 'freedom of conscience' (as declared by the Council of Europe) of this significant group of people who number in the thousands. The basic human right to assemble for worship is an extremely important one for all spiritual human beings. It is quite unbelievable for many people outside of Greece to think that a government of a European Union country who has signed the 'declaration of human rights' can act in this way against so many its own people who are law abiding and peaceful in their activities and their protest.

This is the birthplace of democracy and yet it doesn't exist here.

Can you write a letter to your congressman please.

AIIZ

helitack · Post by **helitack** » Sun Jul 09, 2006 2:23 pm

Apollonaris Zeus wrote: All LEO's are corrupt some more some less but all are and this just one example of why we need checks an balance in place- polygraphs! That's the fact mam.

AIIZ

This statement is so much bullshit. Total bullshit. Total paranoid bullshit. Did I mention I think this is bullshit?

Kinetic IV · Post by **Kinetic IV** » Sun Jul 09, 2006 2:36 pm

Wide paintbrushes have their place...but using one to say ALL LEO's are corrupt is not gonna work. Sorry AIIZ. You're right on many things...but not this one.

joel the ornery · Post by **joel the ornery** » Sun Jul 09, 2006 6:36 pm

off her medication once again, eh?

Steven bradford · Post by **Steven bradford** » Sun Jul 09, 2006 7:36 pm

Ask for an amendment to include routine polygraph testing of all federal law enforcement agents.

Why does re-affirming the odd American worship of the worthless polygraphy mysticism accomplish anything?

helitack · Post by **helitack** » Sun Jul 09, 2006 7:46 pm

Steven bradford wrote:
Ask for an amendment to include routine polygraph testing of all federal law enforcement agents.
Why does re-affirming the odd American worship of the worthless polygraphy mysticism accomplish anything?

Pants young man, pants. That's all I have to say.

Apollonaris Zeus · Post by **Apollonaris Zeus** » Fri Dec 01, 2006 7:49 am

Write your congress man about these two issues:

Add hate groups to the patriot act!

this form of domestic terrorism has killed millions of people for too long!!!

Do not allow Robert Gates to be confirmed as Secretary of Defence!

He was involved in the cover up of the Iran-Contra Affair which involved your administration, the CIA, Armed forces intelligence, DEA and insurgencies

AIIZ

Toolmaker · Post by **Toolmaker** » Fri Dec 01, 2006 6:36 pm

helitack wrote:
Apollonaris Zeus wrote: All LEO's are corrupt some more some less but all are and this just one example of why we need checks an balance in place- polygraphs! That's the fact mam.

AIIZ
This statement is so much bullshit. Total bullshit. Total paranoid bullshit. Did I mention I think this is bullshit?

You are bullshit! Try having a gun shoved in your mouth after being beaten by 3 cops just for having blue hair.

helitack · Post by **helitack** » Fri Dec 01, 2006 8:10 pm

MikeVDS · Post by **MikeVDS** » Fri Dec 01, 2006 9:36 pm

These generalizations make your statements lose all credibility. You may have had bad experiences with certain people. Certain groups of people are corrupt. Certain areas of this world embrace cultures that are unaccepting of other cultures and ideas. Just because YOU have met these people or groups does not mean we have all had the same experiences. Unfortunately it's human nature. People have been fighting it since the beginning of mankind and some battles have been won but as long as we're human the war will never be over. You can find people who think like you and live happily. You can fight alone and lose. You can join others in the fight and perhaps make things better for future generations, or you can just say, "woah is me" and talk about it on-line.

Orbital-Burn · Post by **Orbital-Burn** » Fri May 18, 2007 5:23 am

Apollonaris, where do you think the bomb in Judi's vehicle came from?

Post by **mdmf007** » Fri May 18, 2007 11:24 am

Zeus - thast a kinda broad statement, to say that there are no good officers out there is pretty much a slap in the facr to the 99.999 percent that do their job and do it well.

later

Archantael · Post by **Archantael** » Fri May 18, 2007 11:39 am

That's one of those ultrawide all inclusive statements that can't be backed up. And as written it's complete and utter B.S.

Now if you say that about the system they work under...now that I can believe. But even under the worst rules there are some that find ways to do what's right no matter what.

Orbital-Burn · Post by **Orbital-Burn** » Sun May 27, 2007 8:47 am

Apollonaris, where do you think the bomb in Judi's vehicle came from?

Apollonaris Zeus · Post by **Apollonaris Zeus** » Sun May 27, 2007 10:46 am

I believe that you must define corruption.

What is corruption?

The recent police officers from NY that robbed a person of his drugs corrupt! or the recent issure from the head of the NJ Troopers publishing the names, address and phone number of the New Jersey Guys corruption? Like protecting a fellow officer when you find out that they broke the law in filling a report!

All LEO's are corrupt: some less and some more and they are that way because of our creator: Prometheus. We all have inherited his propensity to deceive!

Orbital Burn what does it matter who I think planted the bomb?

Was it the planted FBI agent that instigated using bombs from the first place? Or was it one of the local LEO's or someone that wasn't a LEO that attended a bomb clinic? Could that person be associated with the logging industry?????

What is known that Judi and her associates weren't into that form of expression other then an offhand sarcastic remark and no bomb making matterials were ever found in the possession of the enviromentalists!!!!!!

Failure on the FBI was that they never investigated anyone else that could have a motive for planting a bomb under their seat!!!

That was a complete fuck up on investigative theory. Never focus on one suspect and never focus on what appears to be the obvious.

ON another note: write your congressmen to make it manditory that all vehicle advertising include MPG ratings!!!!!

AIIZ

OrbitaL Burn: who are you. Are you PIG or are you corrupt? You who has posted only twice!

Apollonaris Zeus · Post by **Apollonaris Zeus** » Sun May 27, 2007 10:51 am

mdmf007 wrote:Zeus - thast a kinda broad statement, to say that there are no good officers out there is pretty much a slap in the facr to the 99.999 percent that do their job and do it well.

later

I didn't say that there are no good cfficers, but all are corrupt to an extent, some less, some more.

Dissemination of personal information is something they are very good at- that's illegal!!!!!

AIIZ

MikeVDS · Post by **MikeVDS** » Sun May 27, 2007 12:01 pm

I didn't say that there are no good cfficers, but all are corrupt to an extent, some less, some more.

I believe this statement is ultimately true but misleading. All officers are human and therefor corrupt. I've know quite a few and most that I have met are less corrupt than the average human being. I'm sure there are probably many whole departments that are corrupt but from what I've seen in L.A. and Sen Bernardino county, that is not the case.

I think some people expect cops to be perfect, and that is unreasonable. I expect them to be human and reasonably enforce the laws that our elected officials put into place. We will find bad ones and they are the ones we hear about in the news, but what about the 100 others for each one we hear about? Give me any profession and I'll find you a rapist or murderer. That doesn't mean the whole profession is corrupt.

MikeVDS · Post by **MikeVDS** » Sun May 27, 2007 12:11 pm

ON another note: write your congressmen to make it manditory that all vehicle advertising include MPG ratings!!!!!

I personally hate laws like this. What is the point? If someone is buying a vehicle and doesn't bother to know anything about it before hand, they probably aren't reading the fine print on some ad. It just clogs our court systems with more laws. It's laws like this that require us to have so many lawyers and law suits. Less laws, more personal responsibility. If you look at each law like this, it may make a little improvement, but when you look at the whole picture, look at how it changes peoples expectations and outlook on governments role. Our laws should encourage people to think for themselves, not depend on government to coddle them.

Apollonaris Zeus · Post by **Apollonaris Zeus** » Sun May 27, 2007 8:38 pm

MikeVDS wrote:
ON another note: write your congressmen to make it manditory that all vehicle advertising include MPG ratings!!!!!
I personally hate laws like this. What is the point? If someone is buying a vehicle and doesn't bother to know anything about it before hand, they probably aren't reading the fine print on some ad. It just clogs our court systems with more laws. It's laws like this that require us to have so many lawyers and law suits. Less laws, more personal responsibility. If you look at each law like this, it may make a little improvement, but when you look at the whole picture, look at how it changes peoples expectations and outlook on governments role. Our laws should encourage people to think for themselves, not depend on government to coddle them.

My reason behind this is to bring to the fore front of the consumer the social expense of their buying action. All commercials feed on obsessive impulsive buying. Many people now buy those overpriced HDD wide screen TVs ($5,000) without ever considering their budgets, throw in a new SUV ($35,000.00) with a 21 mpg esculating morgages payments ($2,500) then $3.75 ($85 per week) a gallon prices. Now does little jamie have a college fund for his future.

But what about you? America needs to conserve 20% of our gas use right now because the refineries can't produce enough fuel. I would do a (Carter and force 55 mph rules, "55 saves 25!" percent that is) the price of gas may hit over $4.00 this summer and they are talking about a possible $5.00 within two years. Remember the bullshit they gave us last year, Oh it hurricane Katrina. Fuck its not about hurricane Katrina or Iraq or the Arab producing nations: it our fucking producing nation!

So if someone associate the MPG of that nice new BMW or Dodge Truck when they're seducing them. It like a whore that wiggles that fine tight ass in front of you and say's, "hey honey it's only a $1000 buck for the first hour. See how fast your dick shrivels up. Now that Yaris chick fucks a long time for a one $4.00 gallon. Hmmm, boy I drive her pussy all night long at that price!!!

geemee some of that!

ON the other hand it just reality, right!

AIIZ

MikeVDS · Post by **MikeVDS** » Mon May 28, 2007 6:45 am

ON the other hand it just reality, right!

From what I've seen most ads already say their MPG and the ones that don't you can bet are worse than what you'd think. If they had to put their MPG in the ad I do not think that'd do anything to detour the impulsive buyers. If they think so little about their decision, it's the same type of person who doesn't think about the 10MPG.

My proposal for a law.
---------------------------------------------------------
What they should do is put a 3d chart on there that on the axis has the distances drive to work, another the current price of gasoline, and on the third, your driving index number which will be taken from another chart. On this 3d holographic (so it's easier to read and MAKES people look at it), you'll then find your average monthly fuel costs.

A second chart will be the same but compare the number of passengers, load your hauling, and average speed, which will give you your driving index number for the first chart.

5 more charts will have to be posted with MPG ranges so you can find your cost from your current vehicle that will be replaced by the new one. Then the buyers can really be informed.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Get my point? Either someone is concerned with those numbers or they just want what they want. More inane laws just closes off the market to new competition. As it is, a start-up is looking at spending as much in legal fees as they do for initial production.

If improving gas mileage is the idea, write to congress about that. We can make lightweight, comfortable vehicles that get 100's of MPG and if you can sacrifice some comfort and load they have gotten over 1000mpg. It'd be a deathtrap on our highways with the current vehicles out there, but there is no reason that couldn't be the future. Electric is also an viable option for the long term future if you'd be willing to support nuclear technology.

Write your congressman, ask for a rewrite of the Patriot Act

How much do you trust law enforcement?

a serious response, i am not being facetious