What are women about, really?

the fire elf · Post by **the fire elf** » Fri Mar 03, 2006 7:03 pm

if so, maybe you should stick it where it would warm up...

DVD Burner · Post by **DVD Burner** » Sat Mar 04, 2006 3:52 am

Is that cold ....................or what?

Yummy.

Mister Jellyfish Mister · Post by **Mister Jellyfish Mister** » Sat Mar 04, 2006 6:27 am

I confess, I read through half the posts here and realized there's a better way for me to understand.

I'm going to go pour myself another cup of coffee, and walk into their bedrooms and look into the sleeping faces of my two daughters. I've got a perfect opportunity to witness the formation of womanhood right here. Like watching lava to know volcanos.

I admit that with my precious wife in the mix, there's an imbalance of testosterone in our home. Espeicailly after we had our puppy fixed this week. Maybe I'll smoke a cigar and do some good spitting later.

One love,

-Jellyfish

cowboyangel · Post by **cowboyangel** » Sat Mar 04, 2006 5:28 pm

I figured it out. Here's the explanation:

BoxaRox · Post by **BoxaRox** » Sun Mar 05, 2006 3:27 pm

To turn women to "them" when seeking understanding is no more productive than to try the same with men.

One at a time is difficult enough.

The reward comes in the mutual attempt.

Mozy bonz · Post by **Mozy bonz** » Sun Mar 05, 2006 7:42 pm

To turn women to "them" when seeking understanding is no more productive than to try the same with men.

One at a time is difficult enough.

The reward comes in the mutual attempt.

good point.

SED · Post by **SED** » Sun Mar 05, 2006 8:34 pm

It was my mother who turned women into "them", not me.

uBeRpLaYa · Post by **uBeRpLaYa** » Sun Mar 05, 2006 9:06 pm

BoxaRox wrote:To turn women to "them" when seeking understanding is no more productive than to try the same with men.

One at a time is difficult enough.

The reward comes in the mutual attempt.

yOu aRe aN aSsHaT. yOu dOn't kNoW hOW wOmEn fEeL oR yOu wOuLd nOt hAvE bEhAvEd tHe wAy yOu dId. yOuR wIFe ShOuLd kNoW.

Mister Jellyfish Mister · Post by **Mister Jellyfish Mister** » Sun Mar 05, 2006 9:21 pm

uBeRpLaYa wrote:
BoxaRox wrote:To turn women to "them" when seeking understanding is no more productive than to try the same with men.

One at a time is difficult enough.

The reward comes in the mutual attempt.
yOu aRe aN aSsHaT. yOu dOn't kNoW hOW wOmEn fEeL oR yOu wOuLd nOt hAvE bEhAvEd tHe wAy yOu dId. yOuR wIFe ShOuLd kNoW.

Uber: If you are this unpleasant to be around on the playa, please keep away from me.

Sincerely,

-Jellyfish

PrincessCharming · Post by **PrincessCharming** » Sun Mar 05, 2006 9:23 pm

Whata great thread..! Props to SED for bringing it up. I'll throw my two bits into the fire.. I think there's a lot of feathers getting ruffled (and a lot of feathers being DELIBERATELY ruffled, Fire elf..) where there seems to be a lot of agreement actually (it's just getting lost in everybody getting pissed off and up in arms).

I think I got Hugh's point, about positive generalizations having negative potential as well, therefore it would be best to avoid generalizing. I agree, and yet I generalize all the time.. it seems a kind of human default mode of being, to need to organize our world into categories etc. Perhaps it's less overwhelming that way, if we don't have to actually consider everyone in their complexity..? I actually think things tend to get really interesting when they get confusing and people don't measure up to their descriptive categorizations or what's expected.

I walk around the world believing I'm right about things/people a lot of the time.. which means I'm making a hell of a lot of assumptions or "educated" guesses based on past experiences, etc, and therefore basically on auto-pilot, or "survival mode". Do I find out I'm right most of the time? Hell yes. Does this mean I am "right"? Not necessarily, likely I'm looking for evidence to prove my story right, so I can feel smart, and be more at ease with uncertainty because I've created an illusion that is more comfortable. I'm trying to unlearn this, because: if I didn't work against it, my life would be one big self-fulfilling prophecy (although I've been playing with this, and have realised this can be a GOOD thing, depending on the prophecy), AND I actually love surprises (well, the nice ones). I think we get into some trouble and can take "right"/"wrong", "good"/"bad" thinking too far. Standing in a place where we're judging/assessing something (self, other, whatever) takes us out of being present to the now and the possibilities the present moment offers (which the "predictive" past does not offer). This process is not that same as intuition, which I think all the noise, activity, whatnot and confusion in the world can drown out if we are not firmly rooted and present within ourselves.

It's "true" that people believe all kinds of stupid things about people.. I think we get into trouble by assuming too much. Many assumptions get made about men being unfeeling, etc, too, and they have vulnerabilities and gentle sides to them too. A big pitfall of socialization (including saturation by the media etc) is getting led away from one's sense of self and becoming over-identified instead with one's "prescribed" gender characteristics.. leads to overly vulnerable women with victim complexes, emotionally lobotomized men who can't connect and just want to get laid.. people can try to fit the idea of what a "man" or "woman" should be, and end up performing amputative surgery on the self over time. This sucks, because nobody's ever "good enough", so we have a fragmented sense of self and other, lack of mind/heart/body integration and poor self-esteem for everyone along with the compensatory behaviors, which create a negative feedback loop and around and around we go.

I was camping once next to this family and the little boy, 6 or 7 had burned himself on the campstove and was crying in pain. His dad immediately started in, telling him loudly to stop that, because "big boys don't cry", asking him if he was a baby or a big boy, etc. I don't know what was up with the dad, maybe he was embarrassed about the crying? Didn't want the rest of the campers to hear? What was worse was hearing him trying to kill this natural thing in his son. Totally counterproductive for males to grow up thinking its embarrassing to show emotion or express themselves. He could have comforted his son and tended the burn and loved him through that instead of shaming him... Anyway..

The point being made about negative/positive statements is also totally relevant.. I agree with you guys too: we freaking manifest our own AND others' destinies, and it's WAY more constructive to walk around the world perceiving the good in people and making positive generalizations in this way. Aligning your actions with an intention towards a good outcome or result is a creative act and sets up the universe to actualize it.. When dealing with people, a worthwhile challenge is to be unconditionally loving to everyone, regardless of whether or not they meet our expectations, and to "look for the light" in all beings. Cause I'm convinced it's in there, if just eclipsed for the moment. Or at least, it once was, and if it's been lost, then that deserves some compassion.

So here's me at my best.. catch me on a bad day and I'll be eating these words! I can be seriously snarky sometimes..

Anyway, thanks for the posts.. this has been interesting.

uBeRpLaYa · Post by **uBeRpLaYa** » Sun Mar 05, 2006 9:25 pm

nOt GoInG tO haPpEn mr wHaT haPpeNs oN tHe pLaYa sYaYs oN tHe pLayA

BigCock · Post by **BigCock** » Sun Mar 05, 2006 9:34 pm

PrincessCharming wrote:... When dealing with people, a worthwhile challenge is to be unconditionally loving to everyone, regardless of whether or not they meet our expectations, and to "look for the light" in all beings. Cause I'm convinced it's in there, if just eclipsed for the moment. Or at least, it once was, and if it's been lost, then that deserves some compassion...

mwah!

Kinetic IV · Post by **Kinetic IV** » Sun Mar 05, 2006 9:39 pm

I hope PrincessCharming's outstanding post doesn't get lost in what really looks like an impending shitstorm. This thread has been very insightful and without getting into it very timely for me and I'm grateful for the serious posts. I hope they continue and overwhelm the rest of the crap that keeps flooding in here.

SED · Post by **SED** » Sun Mar 05, 2006 10:12 pm

The debate over whether it is justifiable to generalize seems pointless to me. Flaming and counter-flaming is just plain juvenile and tedius, and besides, that's what PMing is for. So take it outside, or get a room.

This thread is about coming to terms with sexuality in a way that doesn't supress desire or subject others to unwanted attention. Personally, I'm writing from the perspective of a man who hasn't had really good sex in a long time, but I'm using the momentum of that frustration to discover new territory, so to speak.

At BurningMan, I have found a way to stay sexually faithful to my wife, but still interact sensually with the many attractive women who want to go naked. It's the drums. I can make people dance with my drums. They keep my hands busy and in plain sight. If I stop or lose the beat, so does the dance. The better I play, the wilder the dance becomes.

There's something consistent in this, but don't mistake that remark for a generalization.

And those who do generalize have a right to the conclusions they draw from their experiences and observations. The only ones on this thread who I'll condemn are the hotheads and sleaze bags, and you know who you are . . .

the fire elf · Post by **the fire elf** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:05 am

PrincessCharming wrote:(and a lot of feathers being DELIBERATELY ruffled, Fire elf..)

once i was sitting naked by a stream, playing in the water under the shade of a bush on a beautiful summer afternoon...

a little crustacion came up to investigate my appendage...a murkey colored critter that blended into the murkey surroundings...

he gave me a little startle...

i decided to repay the favor, and wiggle my finger at him menacingly...

then he stood up, splayed his appendages and showed me the most beautifully colored belly i think i've seen...

the murkey collored critter transformed into a radiant display of color, and with that i decided that wiggling my finger menacingly and such made the world a more beautiful place...

the end...

PrincessCharming · Post by **PrincessCharming** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 2:51 pm

Well, I [i]think[/i] I see what you might be trying to say, Fire elf.. IF I stretch it a little bit.. that the gorgeous alchemy of life is in the interactions we participate in..? If so, what is it you are offering in these interactions? What I actually get from that story is that a little crab was innocently interested in taking a bite of your wienie, understandably startling you, and then went into "I'm big and scarey" mode when it thought you might hurt it, and you were impressed with its colours. So you concluded that you waggling your finger menacingly makes the world a more beautiful place..(?) I see this as different than delivering what seems at best to be an impish, elfish poke in the ribs, and at worst an insult.. There seems to me to be little or no thought behind your "menacing finger waggle", and your intention is unclear to me. Are you "waggling your finger" in (mock?) menace to women to make the world a more beautiful place? How so? By annoying women? Are you having delusions of grandeur? Please clarify. Please also understand this doesn't mean I don't love you..

What we are missing online is the context we get when we can look each other in the eye, register body language etc. I see that you declared you "love women", but not that you understand remotely who it is you are "loving" or what it is like to be one sometimes.. It almost sounds like you "love these [i]things[/i] called women". It is unclear to me what your understanding of women is.. you have referred to them as objects on more than one occasion (finger-warmers, attractive nervous systems). Forgive me if I have missed other posts where you communicate an understanding or acknowledgement of the personhood of a woman, or that the subjective experience of a woman matters to you, because I don't see that here on this thread.

Your comment about women being "excellent finger-warmers" really rubbed me the wrong way too (forgive the pun).. I've too often had the experience of a male letting me know I was, to him, at best a hole to be filled by him. I'm hoping that what you have been trying to communicate is that you think women are gorgeous and beautiful and sexy beings, and that you love to give them pleasure.. cause I'm down with that, and in full agreement-- making love to my wife is my absolute favorite thing to do, a downright spiritual experience.. what I don't get from you is that you have an understanding of what gives a woman pleasure or displeasure.. You have perhaps (unintentionally I hope?) displeased a few here through a lack of concern for the effect your words/actions may have, or perhaps a greater concern for your own amusement. And I realize that I have a choice to be displeased or not.. it's just that I also (choose to) care very much about my experience and those of other women, and if you do (as you say you do, in your "love of women"), it will matter to you that your words had an unintended negative outcome. Maybe you can joke with the women in your life that way, because hopefully they know you to be this super cool and awesome guy.. we just don't know you, so assuming it's okay to "joke" with us is like some clueless white guy assuming it's okay to "joke" with a black guy he doesn't know by calling him " bro," or worse..

Of all the women I know well, including myself, more than 3/4 have been sexually assaulted by a male at least once. Most, including myself, have been on several occasions (in my case, from a doctor to a tattoo artist to customers in a bar to a guy I was dating to some guy I passed on the street, to even a gay guy). When I refer to sexual assault, I'm including everything from rape to being groped or grabbed. These kinds of experiences are probably not something you grew up dealing with. If you did, then I'm sorry. I know a lot of males are assaulted too, but I think it's safe to "generalize" a wee bit here and acknowledge that while I know it does happen to men, it happens WAY more often to women. As a result, most girls grow up in a climate of some danger that is not often spoken of but nonetheless felt. It's weird.. once you hit puberty and sprout some breasts, there's all these male eyeballs all over you.. I know these are just my experiences and those of the women in my life, so I'm generalizing based on that. I'd be very happy to hear of other experiences unlike this, or to hear about what its like for men. Hey, yeah: What are men about, anyway?? I'd like to know..

Here's a story for you.. last year's burn, my girlfriend and I were just riding down the streets in our neighbourhood, and this art car rode up, young smiling guys on the top, playing music. We smiled back, said "Hey, nice art car, that's pretty cool!" They stopped the car and a couple of them climbed down to invite us for a ride.. one of them yelled down from the top "Oh yeah!! I want to be on top of that!!".. he was pointing at me. I had no idea what to say, and we just rode away, saying "No thanks.." After that, and we were polite (stupid fucking "nice girl" upbringing)..! Another day, we were checking out the Man, walking around the maze, etc. Some chump at the top was yelling "Hey vagina!! Vagina!! No, not you, the other one!! Vagina!!" I made sure not to look up at this loser, and was pleased to hear another male voice from up there say, "What're you doing..??" in this "you're an embarrassment to men everywhere" tone of voice. That shut him up. I again had no clever comeback or even any justified anger. Whenever I encounter that kind of thing, I'm so shocked I often just don't know what to say or do. An exception on the playa was when I told off the guy who made that giant head (not "the Dreamer") when he was totally disrespectful.. (see my post on "memorable moments/one-time experiences"). That time, I'd had a couple of Jagermeisters.. (good ol' German liquid courage!) but aside from that, including when I've been assaulted, I sometimes get sort of paralyzed, because it just doesn't factor in to the way my world is set up.. I'm planning on having kids sometime in the next few years, and I'm definitely planning on having some preparatory discussions with the wee ones. My parenting didn't include education about these sorts of events.

I was glad that a male had spoken up against that asshole.. If I had said something, would it have had any affect? If I or another woman had gotten mad, would he have laughed? Obviously, the dude had such severe issues, that he was walking around the world not even counting women among the human race.. there may not have been any point. Its like, to that giant (dick)head guy, I became a "bitch" because I didn't do what he told me to, and I didn't take kindly to his treatment of me. Same thing with those stupid guys who say "oh, she's a dyke/bitch" if a woman doesn't appreciate their advances.

So we're coming back to the playa this year. I know there will be more of the same shit.. I know there's likely to be more dosing, more sexual assaults, and more frat-boy crap, and I'll be doing whatever I can to watch out for this kind of thing. I just hope I can in the moment respond appropriately if someone's a total asshole again, instread of being rendered speechless. Any suggestions?

Hunh.. again I've written a friggin novel.. must go out and get a life now..

BC: back atcha.. and thanks, K-IV!

the fire elf · Post by **the fire elf** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 5:03 pm

we live in very different contexts...

my words leave my being in a light very different from the light that shines on them as they enter yours...

my intention is to spur deeper thought in your world...perhaps cause a growth spurt or two...

given the chasm that seperates our modes of experience, it looks like i've got my work cut out for me...

thank you for being soo charming about the whole thing...

taking a bite of your wienie

the 'wienie' was safely on the river bank, only the finger was at risk of a nibble...

nogganoodle · Post by **nogganoodle** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 5:09 pm

shit, blah, I dont know what. we are a mysterious race...

.

the fire elf · Post by **the fire elf** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 6:03 pm

PrincessCharming wrote: By annoying women? Are you having delusions of grandeur? Please clarify.

'generalizing'...

women are not a single homogenious entity...it's more of a spectrum...

some are annoyed by me, some are intrigued, some are afraid, some are condescending...

the same action can illicit as many different responses as individuals (or types of conditioned 'people') are present...

me having delusions of granduer?

you betcha...it's my favorite cup of tea...

what annoys me are all the delusions of insignificance that people live in while they find fault with me...

i'm selective with the women i like...

just as i imagine you are...

and i really don't mind pissing a few people off along the way...i'm beggining to enjoy it...

the fire elf · Post by **the fire elf** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 6:45 pm

PrincessCharming wrote: What we are missing online is the context we get when we can look each other in the eye, register body language etc.

you're right...that's not here...

but i'm not looking for that here...i look for that in my physical environ...

i consider this space as a bonus...something extra on top of all the eye contact, body language that exist in my reality...

this isn't a substitute for reality...

if you try to use it as such, or mistake it for reality in a fit of ignorance, well, WAKE UP...

PrincessCharming · Post by **PrincessCharming** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 9:24 pm

"my words leave my being in a light very different from the light that shines on them as they enter yours... "

Well, care to shed a little light? Because you seem pretty unconcerned with how your words might affect some women, which is contrary to your professed "love" for them. When you said, "I love women," I thought you were referring to all women, not just some.

"my intention is to spur deeper thought in your world...perhaps cause a growth spurt or two... "

Pardon me, but HAH!! That's hilarious.. this might happen, elf, if you had something insightful, intelligent or engaging to say. Referring to me as a "finger-warmer" isn't gonna do it. Go back to guru school.. have a great trip.. just don't trip TOO hard.. ;)

PrincessCharming · Post by **PrincessCharming** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 9:39 pm

"what annoys me are all the delusions of insignificance that people live in while they find fault with me... "

What's that supposed to mean? Is that you dismissing the perceptions of everyone who finds fault with you as insignificant? This is getting ridiculous.

Apologies all.. this is starting to feel pointless and stupid. That's what I get for taking this thread seriously.. ~slaps forehead, shakes head, walking away~

HughMungus · Post by **HughMungus** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 9:40 pm

BoxaRox wrote:To turn women to "them" when seeking understanding is no more productive than to try the same with men.

One at a time is difficult enough.

Exactly.

The reward comes in the mutual attempt.

Definitely.

uBeRpLaYa · Post by **uBeRpLaYa** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 9:46 pm

HughMungus wrote:
BoxaRox wrote:To turn women to "them" when seeking understanding is no more productive than to try the same with men.

One at a time is difficult enough.
Exactly.

The reward comes in the mutual attempt.
Definitely.

fRaT bOyS aNd F.O.M.

Mozy bonz · Post by **Mozy bonz** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:15 pm

PrincessCharming the name fits the person. I just read your post and I have much respect for your words.

HughMungus · Post by **HughMungus** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:28 pm

uBeRpLaYa wrote:
HughMungus wrote:
BoxaRox wrote:To turn women to "them" when seeking understanding is no more productive than to try the same with men.

One at a time is difficult enough.
Exactly.

The reward comes in the mutual attempt.
Definitely.
fRaT bOyS aNd F.O.M.

BigCock · Post by **BigCock** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:28 pm

PrincessCharming wrote:.. this is starting to feel pointless and stupid. That's what I get for taking this thread seriously.. ~slaps forehead, shakes head, walking away~

You're not bailing on the burn because of the vagina guy, so why bail on SED's thread because of the s-elf guy?
O well, it's not your job to be heard, although please know you definitely were.
Still, dauntlessness can be so beautiful if it transcends cynicism. I think there's a bit of that in the woman SED introduced. At least I'd love to think so.

SED · Post by **SED** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:47 pm

The subject of gender always triggers these responses. There will be twits and reactionaries. They must be mocked or ignored.

The subject remains as relevant, particularly as BM is largely about pushing boundaries and taking risks with sexuality. That's a great thing, but if the balance isn't carefully maintained, it'll disappear, or change into something loathesome, as represented by felfy.

Any more stories and observations about controlled sexuality?

can't sit still · Post by **can't sit still** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:49 pm

Princess charming wrote;
"instread of being rendered speechless. Any suggestions?"

I believe that life becomes simpler if one analyses motivation instead of content,,,for many situations.
If the guy yelled out his nasty salutation, he was maybe hoping to get lucky[sex] or he wanted to yank your chain for the perverse pleasure of pissing you off.
You've heard the reply "I won't dignify that question with a reply"
If you don't react at all,,,,you'll be ignoring HIM and yanking HIS chain.
Speechless is a pretty good start at turning the insult back to him and implying that he's too insignifigant to merit any reaction.

Nothing wrong with writing a novel if you've got something interesting to say.
Some people write in such a nebulous manner, that there is no obvious interpretation for what they really mean. They're hoping that you will mistake obfuscation for philisophical accumen. Unfortunately, the world is full of people with pitiful little lives who have learned, out of necessity, to thrive on disparaging attention,,,because that's the only kind that they ever get.
Dan

BigCock · Post by **BigCock** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 5:41 am

It reminds me of kids throwing things, teasing or shoulder punching, not to hurt but as an immature way to break ice and get attention.

SED wrote:Any more stories and observations about controlled sexuality?

Behind the barnyard veil, that's what Big Cock's all about. You SED it: "At BurningMan, I have found a way to stay sexually faithful to my wife, but still interact sensually with the many attractive women..." and not-so-attractive women, and incredibly hot men, and spicy, clever & weird women and men. "Nice cock!" Hmm, nice eyes, nice smile, nice tongue. I'm getting bigger just thinking about it.

Innuendo definitely puts the play into the playa.