Surviving police encounters

Questions, answers, tips & tricks for newbies and veterans alike
psilence
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Surviving police encounters

Post by psilence » Tue Mar 21, 2006 7:28 pm

I thought that it would be a word to the wise to be well read on the law when it comes to police action in regards to traffic stops and searches of private property. Some people may be stopped along the few hundred or few thousand mile long road when headed to BRC, and it only seems right to spread the good word for their sake.
Why We Do What We Do

The need for people to understand, appreciate, and assert their constitutional rights has grown more urgent as these very rights have been eroded.

Over recent decades, police agencies have adopted increasingly invasive and controversial police tactics, which turn innocent citizens into suspects. Concurrently, the Supreme Court has usually ruled in favor of expanding the scope of police power -- especially for the purpose of fighting illegal drugs.

One of the most disturbing consequences of this apparent "drug exception to the Constitution" has been the use of racial profiling to determine which drivers will be stopped for minor traffic offenses in order to be searched for contraband.

In 2001, Congress's hasty passage of the USA Patriot Act further eroded constitutional protections of the people's privacy and liberty.

Sustaining the erosion of traditional constitutional rights is a complicit citizenry, which has become dangerously permissive of everyday abuses of police power. For example, most people during the course of a traffic stop are likely to waive their rights without even knowing it.

Fortunately, these trends are neither inevitable nor irreversible.

Just as regular physical exercise strengthens muscles atrophied from underuse, innocent citizens must "flex" their constitutional rights in order to keep them strong and secure. Moreover, the simple and knowledgeable assertion of these rights is a citizen's first and best protection from the indignity and inconvenience of improper police searches and arrests.
http://www.flexyourrights.org/traffic_stop_scenario
http://www.flexyourrights.org/street_stop_scenario

Also pertinent;

http://www.flexyourrights.org/illegal_police_searches
The exclusionary rule is a critical remedy against improper searches, and can be used as an effective protection by citizens who know their rights. The reality is that police officers on the street consider it their primary duty to identify and arrest criminals, and often consider the procedural guidelines which restrict their authority as a secondary concern or even a hindrance. In this context, it is understandable that police sometimes perform searches when they shouldn't. Here's what you should know about illegally seized evidence:

1. Consenting to a search automatically makes the evidence admissible in court. Don't consent to warrantless searches!

2. A search is legal if the officer has probable cause to believe you may be engaged in criminal activity.

3. Police officers are quick to conclude that probable cause has been established. Don't try to be clever, just keep your mouth shut.

4. If you feel that police have seized evidence from you illegally, don't discuss it with the arresting officer. Get a lawyer!
Just for the fellow brave hearts.

-Joe

[EDIT 1: Syntax]
[EDIT 2: Added 'Illegal Searches' link and quote]

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HughMungus
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Post by HughMungus » Tue Mar 21, 2006 7:40 pm

Has anyone ever had a cop request to search a vehicle and once told "No" they have let it go at that? I thought the next step was always to call in the drug-sniffing dogs.
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Chai Guy
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Post by Chai Guy » Tue Mar 21, 2006 7:56 pm

The point of saying "NO" isn't so much to prevent LEO from searching your car/house/person whatever, because LEO is going to search what they want to search. The point of saying "NO" is so that when you go to court, the Prosecution has to prove "probable cause".

I've seen first hand several cases get thrown out of court, or never made it to court because of a weak or non existent probable cause. If you say "yes" then it doesn’t matter and you'll pay the price for whatever they find.

http://www.aclu.org/FilesPDFs/dwb%20bust%20card7_04.pdf

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Post by HughMungus » Tue Mar 21, 2006 8:13 pm

Chai Guy wrote:The point of saying "NO" isn't so much to prevent LEO from searching your car/house/person whatever, because LEO is going to search what they want to search. The point of saying "NO" is so that when you go to court, the Prosecution has to prove "probable cause".

I've seen first hand several cases get thrown out of court, or never made it to court because of a weak or non existent probable cause. If you say "yes" then it doesn’t matter and you'll pay the price for whatever they find.

http://www.aclu.org/FilesPDFs/dwb%20bust%20card7_04.pdf
Oh right. I used to be inclined, if they asked, to just say "Yes" (since I assumed they'd just go get a dog and that I'd get busted no matter what so why fuck around waiting 2 hours to get busted?).

Still, has anyone ever said "No" and been let go without them calling the dogs?
It's what you make it.

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Post by spectabillis » Tue Mar 21, 2006 8:15 pm

HughMungus wrote:Still, has anyone ever said "No" and been let go without them calling the dogs?
yep, remember a couple of reports around that, but dont remember the source.

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Post by HughMungus » Tue Mar 21, 2006 8:27 pm

spectabillis wrote:
HughMungus wrote:Still, has anyone ever said "No" and been let go without them calling the dogs?
yep, remember a couple of reports around that, but dont remember the source.
Cool. The probable cause thing is enough for me now. I always knew it was a bad idea to consent to a search but like I said always figured they would find whatever there was anyway so why waste hours waiting for it to happen. Now I know better. Thank you ePlaya!!!
It's what you make it.

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Rockdad
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Just say no to consent

Post by Rockdad » Tue Mar 21, 2006 9:51 pm

Great useful thread psilence

What is really important for protection of our civil rights is for everyone to refuse consent even if you’re clean as a whistle in fact especially if you’re clean as a whistle! that will work to begin to erode that stupid police thought process that leads to the next question "what are you hiding?" that follows anytime anyone stands up for their rights! "If you have nothing to hide why do care if I just look" I care because I love my country and love the bill of rights and I try to exercise the constitution regularly to keep it healthy. Besides that who knows maybe they will plant something? little towns need the revenue and you need all the protection you can get.

If you’re not clean as a whistle it is still a smart move and your lawyer will appreciate it!

They have time limits on how long they can delay you at a traffic stop without probable cause so insist politely on getting on the road without delay and keep track of time.

Much like our current erosion of civil rights with the Patriot act and thru the use of illegal NSA wire taps the fascist right wing will argue "They can tap my phone I have nothing to hide" which is so much self righteous and selfish bullshit and in my eyes traitorous to the country

You should worry because someday soon you may need your civil rights more than ever!
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spectabillis
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Post by spectabillis » Tue Mar 21, 2006 10:12 pm

Aw fuckstick Phil, so sorry.

I accidently tried to quote phil's post and did not know i used the 'edit' button instead. I could not remember what the original post was so I could not return it, so I deleted my change and that deleted the comment.

I forgot our privleges were expanded and wasn't watching.

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phil
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Post by phil » Tue Mar 21, 2006 10:13 pm

spectabillis wrote:Aw fuckstick Phil, so sorry.

I accidently tried to quote phil's post and did not know i used the 'edit' button instead. I could not remember what the original post was so I could not return it, so I deleted my change and that deleted the comment.

I forgot our privleges were expanded and wasn't watching.
C'est la vie. No problem.

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Post by psilence » Tue Mar 21, 2006 10:32 pm

http://eplaya.burningman.org/viewtopic. ... ice+search
phil wrote: One of my friends was on the Jersey Turnpike years and years ago coming home to the Philly area from law school at UMass when he was pulled over for speeding. The trooper asked for permission to search his car, and being a snippy lawschoolstudent, he declined. So he sat there for several hours while the trooper radioed in and got a search warrant delivered to him roadside, then searched the car. My friend said it wasn't worth it.
Something like that, spectabillis.

-Joe

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Rockdad
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Post by Rockdad » Tue Mar 21, 2006 10:33 pm

spectabillis wrote:Aw fuckstick Phil, so sorry.

I accidently tried to quote phil's post and did not know i used the 'edit' button instead. I could not remember what the original post was so I could not return it, so I deleted my change and that deleted the comment.

I forgot our privleges were expanded and wasn't watching.
Ouch! But Happy you guy's got the needed changes..
Your playing with a loaded gun now don't shot yourself in the foot
And try the back button next time it should be there cut it and save it and if needed then paste it works for me!
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Rockdad
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smoking a fatty chronic?

Post by Rockdad » Tue Mar 21, 2006 10:58 pm

phil wrote:

One of my friends was on the Jersey Turnpike years and years ago coming home to the Philly area from law school at UMass when he was pulled over for speeding. The trooper asked for permission to search his car, and being a snippy lawschoolstudent, he declined. So he sat there for several hours while the trooper radioed in and got a search warrant delivered to him roadside, then searched the car. My friend said it wasn't worth it.
I pretty sure the courts have ruled that unlawful detention! arrest me now or let me go. And to get a search warrant requires probable cause so maybe your friend was smoking a fatty chronic?

On that note I was pulled over on the way to BRC last year 40 in a 25 radar. Happened right where you make the left turn and start heading into the desert. I pulled over right away at the Indian Taco stand I was polite and he let me go with no ticket and even told me where the NHP was setup ahead on the road.
They are not all bad!
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Post by spectabillis » Wed Mar 22, 2006 12:14 am

phil wrote:C'est la vie. No problem.
Cool, thanks.

I was more worried if it might be abused. I guess the good thing is the timestamp of the change with the person's name who changed it, just like a normal edit, so at least everyone will know it cant be abused.

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Chai Guy
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Post by Chai Guy » Wed Mar 22, 2006 10:25 am

I pretty sure the courts have ruled that unlawful detention!


No, the police are allowed to detain you in order to await a search warrant from a judge or to bring in a K9 unit. They need only "reasonable suspicion".

Also, lest anyone think otherwise, Burning Man isn't the "Rainbow Gathering" (though you'd think it might be since we stole their stupid hippie slogan "Welcome Home"). The police on the roads into the event aren't specifically looking to toss the contents of your vehicle in search of contraband. They are incredibly diligent about ticketing people who speed, and there are some weird speed limits on 447 believe me. Watch those signs and keep your speed in check.

As the event has grown, so has the sophistication level of enforcement. I have heard reports of LEO driving around in an Art Car and asking people to share their illicit substances, when someone offers, they are then detained and ticketed. I've heard of LEO posing as participants and asking people to "trade" one type of illicit substance for another type. When the person agrees, they are detained and ticketed.

There are all kinds of stories about clumsy undercover cops without a clue, these may be true, but for everyone of those stories, there's another one about someone getting caught. Trust me, the LEO at this event has been doing this thing longer than you have, they have better costumes, and better art cars than you.

Did you know that gifting someone drugs is illegal?
Did you know that trading one kind of drug for another is illegal?
Did you know that telling someone where to procure drugs is illegal?
Did you know that smoking pot is illegal?

I promise you, that sometime during the week someone will ask you where they can buy drugs, or if you have drugs for them. I've been collecting some responses and I'll share them with you now (please note, some of these I've gleaned from friends):

No, I'm sorry officer, I "just say no" to drugs.

Acid? Do I have any Acid? Oh, you mean LSD, yeah well you know LSD was first synthesized in 1938 by a chemist working for Sandoz Laboratories in Switzerland. His name was Dr. Albert Hofmann, not to be confused with the 60's counter-culture radical "Abbie Hoffman", entirely different guy, but he did a fuckton of Acid, from what I understand, I mean Abbie Hoffman, not the Dr. who invented it, but hell, Dr. Hofmann must have at least tried the stuff right? anyway yeah, So alot of people don't know this but LSD was initially developed as a circulatory and respiratory stimulant.... HEY WHERE ARE YOU GOING????

"I'm high on LIFE!"


Drugs? No, I'm a Scientologist. L. Ron Hubbard, among his significant discoveries found that residues from drugs and other toxins lodge in the fatty tissues of the body and stay there, even years after they have been ingested, and these residues can continue to affect the individual adversely long after the effect of the drug has apparently worn off. Maybe you'd like to come with me back to my camp and take a "Personality Test"??... HEY WHERE ARE YOU GOING????

"Drugs are bad Mmmmmmkay??"

Drugs, oh, I don't use them myself, but I hear that if you go to Center Camp and start walking towards the man, that first camp there on your left, yep on the Esplanade there where all the trailers are, the one with the large wooden observation deck, yeah that one. You just walk in there and start shouting real loud like "WHERE'S MY FUCKING GIFT?" that's like the "code", it means you’re cool and someone will come out and hook you up... HEY WHERE ARE YOU GOING?????

Do I have any…. Hey, I really like your hat, that is sooo cool! Did you make that? Wow, I can totally see your aura right now. It’s like all green and fuzzy with purple dinosaurs. Can you see mine? What’s your Playa-name? I’m hungry. Wow, look at thing over there, what is that? That wasn’t there yesterday! How many years have you been coming here? Wow, my feet are really dirty huh? HEY WHERE ARE YOU GOING????

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Post by Kinetic IV » Wed Mar 22, 2006 11:08 am

(tangent)
Driving to Burning Man and coming through Kansas? Don't get stopped by the KHP, you may be asked for a license and a fingerprint sample. Seriously. And it looks like you can't do diddly squat about it either.

http://blogs.kansascity.com/crime_scene ... s_out.html

This may be coming to a cop near you sooner than you think.
(/tangent)
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Post by Chai Guy » Wed Mar 22, 2006 11:22 am

For years now in California, I've been providing a thumb print along with having my photo taken for my driver's license.

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/dl/dl_info.htm

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Post by Kinetic IV » Wed Mar 22, 2006 11:29 am

The fingerprint when getting a license is one thing. This is giving fingerprints as you sit alongside I-70 waiting on the KHP trooper to finish his ticket.

That link I just posted has got picked up by the Drudge Report in the past 10 minutes....I'm starting the stopwatch to see how long it takes for the firestorm to erupt.
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Post by Chai Guy » Wed Mar 22, 2006 11:31 am

I'm confused. Are you against the cops having your fingerprints prior to you being charged with a crime, or are you against waiting for them to take your fingerprints?

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Post by Kinetic IV » Wed Mar 22, 2006 11:39 am

I have a couple of issues with this.
1: I don't mind giving up my ID but asking for fingerprints should be done after someone is charged with a crime. Not before.
2: Today it's fingerprints, tomorrow it's going to be DNA. This slippery slope is already illuminated and the path we'll all slide down is obvious.
3: I am against anything that makes the stop run any longer than necessary. Do your basic checks, don't go on fishing expeditions and move on.
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Post by HughMungus » Wed Mar 22, 2006 11:42 am

Kinetic IV wrote:I have a couple of issues with this.
1: I don't mind giving up my ID but asking for fingerprints should be done after someone is charged with a crime. Not before.
2: Today it's fingerprints, tomorrow it's going to be DNA. This slippery slope is already illuminated and the path we'll all slide down is obvious.
3: I am against anything that makes the stop run any longer than necessary. Do your basic checks, don't go on fishing expeditions and move on.
I have no problem giving fingerprints or DNA if it will help prevent crime.

Let the flaming begin.
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Post by Chai Guy » Wed Mar 22, 2006 11:45 am

Fingerprinting is a pretty common form of identification, I have to do it all the time, for certain security background checks on jobs, to cashing checks over a certain amount. I personally don't find it very invasive.

I do think it's pretty silly to do one at a traffic stop, unless there is serious doubt as to the id of the person holding the license.

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Post by Kinetic IV » Wed Mar 22, 2006 11:52 am

Missouri has seen several troopers killed in traffic stops this year, one of them is someone I knew quite well. I want the officers to be safe out there and I understand having access to good info is critical. But sheesh, the officer has to go up to the driver and hold on to some scanning machine and wait for the thing to connect to Topeka or wherever and do the check...meanwhile he's got both hands tied up so if someone tried to pull a weapon...they have an advantage over him. It also leaves him exposed to oncoming traffic....it's just one of those things where I can't see that the benefits outweigh the risks. And there are many risks out there....
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Post by HughMungus » Wed Mar 22, 2006 12:03 pm

Kinetic IV wrote:Missouri has seen several troopers killed in traffic stops this year, one of them is someone I knew quite well. I want the officers to be safe out there and I understand having access to good info is critical. But sheesh, the officer has to go up to the driver and hold on to some scanning machine and wait for the thing to connect to Topeka or wherever and do the check...meanwhile he's got both hands tied up so if someone tried to pull a weapon...they have an advantage over him. It also leaves him exposed to oncoming traffic....it's just one of those things where I can't see that the benefits outweigh the risks. And there are many risks out there....
Oh I definitely agree with that. I thought you were not liking the privacy invasion aspect. I'm personally leery of any organization asking for information like that (companies wanting my fingerprint, SSN, etc.) but the way I see it is that if giving up my fingerprint or DNA helps prevent crime and helps catch criminals that it's a huge upside compared to any privacy concerns (which, under current laws, I can't imagine being a problem for me, personally).
It's what you make it.

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Post by Kinetic IV » Wed Mar 22, 2006 12:11 pm

I don't like the privacy aspects either. But your odds of fighting that are much worse than approaching it from a safety aspect...at least in my biased opinion. Also the states out here are having trouble keeping good officers as is...dogpiling them with more and more crap sure won't help their retention rates. If the rank and file officers come out on the record as saying they want this...that's one thing. Otherwise....this should never go beyond the trial run stage.
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Post by gyre » Wed Mar 22, 2006 12:29 pm

I was stopped by a state trooper on a fishing expedition who asked to search my car. I had locked the car as I got out, of course. I told him no, but I would be happy to sit there and wait for a warrant with him. I tried to be polite and we got into a discussion about cars and I ended up showing him the detailing on the fairly uncommon car I was in. He ended up giving me a warning and directions. Cops get bored too. The only reason to say yes to a search is if you have something to hide and they know it.
A very good atty told me to try to use emotion first before a technical arguement in court as a way of avoiding confrontation. On the street, save the fight for later, then file a complaint.
The first time I used her approach on a traffic ticket, I was polite, reasonable, told a sob story, started with "Two years ago..." which alarmed them, told some basics and just stopped. The judge and prosecutor looked at each other and then the pros. looked over my papers so he looked good. Then case dismissed. They were afraid to ask me anything else because I seemed like I was ready to keep going. I never even got to mention my innocence. There are limits, but she was right. I never gave the pros. a fight or he would have tried harder. No confrontation. Everybody had a graceful way out. I gave the trooper a graceful way out too and tried to entertain him a little.

On the other hand, I had a cop search my car without even asking and claim he'd seen something in plain sight-a lie. After an unfortunate encounter with a home invader involving anxiety and an ambulance, the police searched my house and then tried to force me to sign permission to search afterward. After I had been sitting in a car in the heat I passed out and a cop kicked me. "Get up asshole." The least of that case, by the way.

I once refused permission to search to the Texas Drug Interdiction squad. Talked a while. Looked relaxed and ready to wait for a warrant for a day or two. Finally he asked if I would open the trunk. I did just to get done but I didn't give him permission to search. I was on a trip to buy a car, so I had cash in the trunk so it was a risk. He had a chance to do his job and look in the trunk. Try to be interesting but not interesting enough for a warrant. Might be harder with green hair. He let me go. I filed a complaint with Gov George Bush's office later.

The next time a police art car is spotted, it would be amusing if the classic street approach to unmarked cars is used. Someone arranges a distraction like two girls fighting, at b man endless possibilities avail. Then someone tags the car, usually 'police car' or the retro 'pig' or 'narc'. If it happens, take pictures and distribute them.
It is easy to spot the police agent art cars. They're the ones that ask for drugs for a ride. Be careful.
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UNCONSTITUTIONALthemovie

Post by gyre » Wed Mar 22, 2006 12:35 pm

There's a movie that might interest anyone who still likes democracy-Unconstitutional. Saw it on sundance. Webhouse-Unconstitutionalthemovie.org I think.
A lot about rights in everyday life suspended in the patriot act.
"Everything is more wonderful when you do it with a car, don't you think?"
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It would be a shame if I had to resort to self-deception to preserve my faith in objective reality.

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Post by HughMungus » Wed Mar 22, 2006 1:12 pm

Just heard about this on NPR.

High Court Limits Searches — Sort Of

The Supreme Court ruled Wednesday that police without a warrant cannot search a home when one resident says to come in but another tells them to go away, and the court's new leader complained that the ruling could hamper investigations of domestic abuse.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/03/ ... 9976.shtml
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Post by capjbadger » Wed Mar 22, 2006 1:23 pm

I heard that too on the radio on the way to work. I'm curious to see if it will have any effect on vehicle searches.

And can you leave a posted sign saying to dis-allow any searches in your home (even if the roomate at the door says ok), or do you have to be there with the cop in person telling them no?
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Post by HughMungus » Wed Mar 22, 2006 1:46 pm

capjbadger wrote:I heard that too on the radio on the way to work. I'm curious to see if it will have any effect on vehicle searches.

And can you leave a posted sign saying to dis-allow any searches in your home (even if the roomate at the door says ok), or do you have to be there with the cop in person telling them no?
You have to be there. They said that if he hadn't been there that they could have done the search with her consent.
It's what you make it.

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Post by Rockdad » Wed Mar 22, 2006 2:17 pm

Chai Guy wrote:
I pretty sure the courts have ruled that unlawful detention!


No, the police are allowed to detain you in order to await a search warrant from a judge or to bring in a K9 unit. They need only "reasonable suspicion".
Chai I think you may be confusing the reason for the stop with the right to search. I stand by what I said and have been Googling this and find a lot of cites for my position that it requires probable cause for a drug search. if you get out of the car during a stop the courts have allowed a quick weapons search of vehicle not a crime search

Under the Fourth Amendment, government officials may
conduct an investigatory stop of a vehicle only if they possess
"reasonable suspicion: a particularized and objective basis for
suspecting the particular person stopped of criminal activity."
United States v. Thomas, 211 F.3d 1186, 1189 (9th Cir. 2000)
(quotations omitted); see United States v. Lopez-Soto, 205
F.3d 1101, 1105 (9th Cir. 2000) (Fourth Amendment requires
reasonable suspicion, not probable cause, for traffic stop); see
also United States v. Wallace, 213 F.3d 1216, 1219 n.3 (9th
Cir. 2000) (as amended) (probable cause will also support
traffic stop). Such reasonable suspicion "requires specific,
articulable facts which, together with objective and reasonable
inferences, form a basis for suspecting that a particular person
is engaged in criminal conduct." Thomas, 211 F.3d at 1189
(quotations omitted). This court reviews de novo a district
court's finding of reasonable suspicion. Id.


And then probable cause for search

Probable Cause


"The Fourth Amendment of the Constitution guarantees “the right of the people to be secure in their persons . . . and effects against unreasonable searches and seizures.” In order for a search to be reasonable in the absence of consent, the officer must have probable cause to believe that a crime has been, is being, or will be committed.

Drivers should be familiar with two important probable-cause rules. The first is the plain-sight rule, which says that anything in the car’s cabin that the officer can plainly see from outside is fair game. The second is the furtive-gesture rule, which means that an officer’s observance of actions inside the car that can be reasonably perceived as attempts to destroy or remove evidence gives the officer permission to search.

Another common source of probable cause is odor. If an officer smells alcohol or marijuana smoke, he will probably question the driver about it. This line of questioning often results in field sobriety tests.

Federal and state Supreme Court opinions from 2005 explore the boundaries of probable cause and police searches."
Eplaya Bar Camp 2006 "What will it be"

[url=http://eplayabar.blogspot.com/]The Eplaya Bar Camp Blog[/url]

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