Is Burning Man still dangerous?

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 11:44 am

But a ban on tiki torches is funny.

I was about a hundred feet away when that fire started in First Camp and radioed it into the Rangers. The guy had just arrived on a cold windy evening, dumped his gear downwind of a makeshift windbreak of straw bales, was using tiki torches to get settled, and one fell into the straw and lit it up. Helped him toss his nylon camping stuff away from the flames before the fire service arrived.

Note that the policy the following year extended to any open flame in the camping area without sufficient perimeter, not just tiki torches. Also that 55-gal drum stoves and public burn areas were provided along the Esplanade, which is generally downwind of the camping area, as an alternative to random fire rings in a high density area with poor firefighting access.

Safety wasn't the only concern -- note that straw bales were banned too in the wake of the post-rainstorm cleanup of 1998, in which straw, ashes, burn scars, human waste, road ruts, excavated generator pits, and mud-buried debris made a number of really bothersome camping issues apparent -- not the least of which was the mental health of those still scraping the residue of thousands of city people off the playa in November, at the same time they're preparing the permit application for the following year. Believe me, the fatigue of cleanup is a serious safety issue in itself.

Each ticketholder pays for roughly a 25x25-foot space in the camping area, if you divide it up evenly. Think about that. You really can't trust the people who attend the event not to do incredibly stupid shit in that amount of space, and that's absolutely proven over the years of doing the event. It may seem like an entirely different thing if you pull your own wilderness permits to travel the Sierra Nevada, but don't tell me the body of formal and informal rules of climbing, skiing & backpacking are any less pervasive in that environment, compared to Burning Man.

helitack · Post by **helitack** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 11:46 am

Corporations always have to "cover their asses". That is why the rules are as they are and the list will continue to grow. Because BM is being run as a business. For profit etc.
There is no such thing as ya pays your money and you takes your chances anymore.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:16 pm

I enjoy the random stupidity at burning man.
However, this does sound like the same old arguement in the racing world from fifty years ago. Most people are stunned when someone is killed in a race car now, but it happens even in amateur races. If you think extra risk is really essential, push around a friend in a wheelchair, who was wearing a helmet in a car with a rollcage when he got hurt. Then let us know how you feel. Or spend a few days in the med tent. Those people are the main reason risks at burning man aren't more serious. We're a long way from the hospital out there.

As much as I would rather see no rules, I think burning man is facing more of what the parks call disneyland syndrome. People routinely throw themselves off the edge of the grand canyon because they think it's safe- or they're stupid, take your pick. At Yellowstone, they have a flyer just to tell you not to interfere with bison, and how many people got killed last year doing just that. Still, I saw this stuff going on anyway. Why would you need to be told that being chased by 2,000 pounds of angry beefsteak might be unwise? At the canyon, I sat on the edge of a sheer dropoff, but I slid up to it and kept my weight on the solid side of eternity. If you want more danger, there's always our national park system. The closest I came to death at burning man was nearly being run down by a blm truck.

And don't forget-
Racing is life.
Everything else is just waiting.

Chai Guy · Post by **Chai Guy** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:17 pm

I thought hay bales weren't banned until 2000? At least the man was still on hay before then, right?

It may seem like an entirely different thing if you pull your own wilderness permits to travel the Sierra Nevada, but don't tell me the body of formal and informal rules of climbing, skiing & backpacking are any less pervasive in that environment, compared to Burning Man.

There is a one page document you basically have to just read and sign for a campfire permit which is good from Mexico to Canada on the PCT. One 1/2 page document (basically just give your name, expected start date and pay $5) for a "hiking permit" also good from Mexico to Canda, and a one page document (again basic stuff, name, dob, etc) to enter Canada on the trail (you don't even have to clear customs!).

Of course there are a lot of informal rules, and you're free to ignore them at your peril.

Compare that with a Theme Camp Registration form, which seems to grow larger every year. (I think it's gotta be what? 10-15 pages by now?, and I'm not even doing Pyro!) Last year I was contacted by one of Harley's assistants because I only listed one person as a contact (there were only 2 people in my camp!).

Oh, and I don't have to call the BLM Rangers "Hotties".

If you think extra risk is really essential

I don't think extra risk is essential, but tell me this? Why race cars? I mean couldn't you essentially do the same thing in a simulator? I saw a bunch of nascar simulators all connected together once. We could do all of our racing in a "virtual" environment and never have another injury or death!

But that takes some of the fun out of it huh?

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:31 pm

Would you invite 40,000 people on a backpacking trip and put your sole signature on the permit?

helitack · Post by **helitack** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 1:54 pm

GW Bush did. Afghanistan.

Rockdad · Post by **Rockdad** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 2:08 pm

helitack wrote:GW Bush did. Afghanistan.

LOL maybe Rummy co-signed?

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 2:31 pm

helitack wrote:Corporations always have to "cover their asses". That is why the rules are as they are and the list will continue to grow..

Agreed.

For profit

Cites? Because even with my quarrells with the LLC I still see them as actually existing for the benefit of the event, rather than having that worm turned. And they don't seem to make much if any profit. Break even every year, or just about.

And when you consider what coporate sponcership could bring in...

helitack · Post by **helitack** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 2:47 pm

OK let's assume 30,000 tickets at $150 each. That's 4.5 million dollars. That money pays insurance, BLM fees, JOTS, etc and pays some peoples salaries. That's business, even if it is break even or a loss, there are tax benefits for LLC shareholders. SOmeone is profiting from BMLLC. It's a business. Plain y simple. I don't think that is bad, I just wish they would admit that it is a business and stop the altruistic front.

Ugly Dougly · Post by **Ugly Dougly** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 3:06 pm

Every event like this (and I'm thinking of Ren Faires for instance) tend toward a kind of entropy, om which there's a drift towards formulas and safe choices, until the dream is drowned in its own juices.

Solution? Branch out. And invite me before it gets too big.

Zhust · Post by **Zhust** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 3:08 pm

Chai Guy wrote:
For instance, I'd hate to find out that someone was running propane through garden hose with no automatic shutoff.
...

Now no one is looking for the safety valve or the properly rated hose because they assume "Hey Burning Man checks these things to make sure they're safe!" The problem is they might not have checked THAT one.

Unfortunately I don't have domain knowledge in every field. I know a little about a lot of things, but I couldn't tell you whether a gas setup is pretty safe or not. I could tell for sure only if it looks very very unsafe.

I don't really care if there are inspectors that check everything, I just want to know that the people working with dangerous things have some understanding of what is safe and why. When the Burning Man organization asks people to fill out art site forms, it's basically to answer that question. There are no inspectors.

However, I think you're right. I guess. I think so.

I mean, I put my faith in humanity and in other people a whole heck of a lot out there. Theoretically, I could go ahead and give 100% faith -- no rules, no "BMOrg" -- and that would work for me.

I guess.

The trouble is that we have access to some really powerful stuff -- way more powerful than a hundred years ago -- and I don't think we (as a community) know enough respect for the power of those things. It is for that reason that I would like to see people asked, "do you know what you're doing?" and "are you trying not to hurt people?"

I have enough faith in people so just doing that is enough.

spectabillis · Post by **spectabillis** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 3:16 pm

only if you make it.

but more likely now to have a ranger, leo, or some self-appointed safety person at least make their presence known. that, and different means of rules and proceedures have a tendency to put a silenced hush over those things, for good or bad.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 3:46 pm

helitack wrote:OK let's assume 30,000 tickets at $150 each. That's 4.5 million dollars. That money pays insurance, BLM fees, JOTS, etc and pays some peoples salaries. That's business, even if it is break even or a loss, there are tax benefits for LLC shareholders. SOmeone is profiting from BMLLC. It's a business. Plain y simple.

Unresponsive. I already agreed that it's a corporation, but asked you to prove that it was a for-profit corporation. Perhaps I wasn't clear. I don't think that they are really running it for profit (although I know they are getting paid--heck I wish I could get paid to do something I dreamed up.) Your only proof is that it is a corporation. I'm not impressed.

Sean · Post by **Sean** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 4:15 pm

Who cares if Larry and friends make some cash? It was great idea and they do pull it off every year.

sputnik · Post by **sputnik** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 4:21 pm

Sean wrote:Who cares if Larry and friends make some cash? It was great idea and they do pull it off every year.

I don't think you'll find too many of the responders so far who disagree with that statement.

Desert Duck · Post by **Desert Duck** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 4:37 pm

Yeah. Actually, one of the pressures to make the event "safer" has been Insurance. The LLC has to carry a multimillion dollar policy for the event(actually costing a fraction of that), and in order to be able to acquire the policy, they have to make certain concessions-like the extra bit on the ticket, new rules for artcars, etc. And I agree, Larry started this thing as a party, didn't charge for tickets, kept it going, we enjoy it, it takes a lot of work to make it happen, so what if a few people get paid? I don't think ANYone is getting rich, and as long as that is so, then I'm O.K. with it.
I know that if I want to go out to the desert with 50 of my closest friends and burn some art and set up a drive-by shooting range, we'll probably get away with it. And I just might.

SED · Post by **SED** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 5:18 pm

As long as BM has no effective restrictions on alcohol, I would argue that it is intensely dangerous.

There are also more dangerous elements than fire at this event. As BM has grown, so has the risk of being raped and robbed, not to mention arrested for drug use and possesion.

On a more philosophical tack, the danger of boredom and leaving dissappointed and feeling ripped off have also risen dramtically, if only in my case.

So, hell yes. It's a dangerous event.

Desert Duck · Post by **Desert Duck** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 5:26 pm

oooohh.. danger of boredom. That's the WORST!!

Cabanasprings · Post by **Cabanasprings** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 5:27 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:
helitack wrote:OK let's assume 30,000 tickets at $150 each. That's 4.5 million dollars. That money pays insurance, BLM fees, JOTS, etc and pays some peoples salaries. That's business, even if it is break even or a loss, there are tax benefits for LLC shareholders. SOmeone is profiting from BMLLC. It's a business. Plain y simple.
Unresponsive. I already agreed that it's a corporation, but asked you to prove that it was a for-profit corporation. Perhaps I wasn't clear. I don't think that they are really running it for profit (although I know they are getting paid--heck I wish I could get paid to do something I dreamed up.) Your only proof is that it is a corporation. I'm not impressed.

I appologize at this time I must remind you that it is not a Corporation.
It is an LLC which is a Company. Taxed much differently than a Corporation. Consider that if the LLC never made a profit, it would have no capital basis and the only way it would be able to continue to exist is if it were to receive addtional contributions or loans. I doubt that Larry is borrowing money every year to pay for Burningman. Therefor, it makes sense that it is actually a profit making Company.

FWIW

spectabillis · Post by **spectabillis** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 5:32 pm

SED wrote:As BM has grown, so has the risk of being raped and robbed, not to mention arrested for drug use and possesion.

as a percentage, i am not sure thats true. they used to keep track of things like numbers arrested and such... but not sure if they do anymore.

SED · Post by **SED** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 5:36 pm

Regardless of its tax identity, the proof of profit is Burning Man's growth. No organization or organism can grow without taking in more than it expends. The source of the profit and its ultimate destiny can be debated.

Even non-profit organizations grow. In fact if they don't, they like all living things, die.

helitack · Post by **helitack** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 5:38 pm

LLC=A limited liability company provides the benefits of a corporation with the tax treatment of a partnership.

SED · Post by **SED** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 5:42 pm

Desert Duck wrote:oooohh.. danger of boredom. That's the WORST!!

With respect to your experience Mr. Duck, in my opinion, drunks, thieves and rapists might be more dangerous than boredom. On the other hand, it's difficult to say how much violent, anti-social behavior stems from simple boredom, so perhaps you're right.

Just go easy on me, please.

helitack · Post by **helitack** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 5:45 pm

Desert Duck · Post by **Desert Duck** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 5:47 pm

I think you're right about that. If you give a kid a lot of nothing to do, the kid is much more likely to find trouble.

SED · Post by **SED** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 5:59 pm

In my description of the potential hazards of BM I forgot to include the very real danger of pissing in the wind. It's a very, very windy place and there is lots and lots of piss.

While not as deadly as fire, blunt trauma and law enforcement, the risk presented by wind-borne piss can't be underestimated and should be talked about a whole lot.

For the love of God, won't somebody save us from our own piss?

Desert Duck · Post by **Desert Duck** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 6:06 pm

My special positive ventilation dome can save you from yourself. You'll have no need to bring anything and will be completely entertained and taken care of in this one of a kind self-contained living environment.

Zulegoona · Post by **Zulegoona** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 6:35 pm

I think something people have to keep in mind is how your perceptions about things have changed over the years. The first time you see naked people spinning fire, and people using home made propane cannons and flamethrowers, party barges tooling around with 30 really drunk people hanging off the roof, and so on, The over all impression is one of a relatively dangerous on the edge environment . In no time at all it begins to seem common place. I’m not saying rules haven't changed the event, Part of it has to be a response to the size of the event, with every additional person you get one more chance that he or she will find a way to do something stupid and not only kill themselves but take a bunch of people with them. A ban on tiki torches may seem silly, but it may have already saved thousands of people from being mummified in melting flaming nylon tents as a fire started by some drunk guy knocking over a torch races across the entire city.

I agree, I like every body else feels like they are responsible and can handle fire with out burning down the city , I can handle a shotgun without shooting somebody, and I know how to store and prepare food so I and people I give it to won’t get sick. But are every one of the 40,000 people around you as competent as you are? Can they handle the drugs they’re on , the mood swings people have on the playa and high powered rifles. I wouldn’t bet on it. All the rules in the world will never make BM a safe place, just like they will never make the rest of the world a safe place, but it does seem to make sense to try to limit the easy and obvious threats to the masses.

It can certainly be taken to an extreme, It kind of makes me sick to see what the “ think of the children” folks have done to ruin childhood by trying to make it “safe”. Though I know I only survived my childhood playing with homemade explosives and flammable gas filled balloons with an incredible amount of luck. I’m sure a lot of kids doing the same stuff ended up in burn wards. I had more luck than common sense, though at the time I’m sure every thing I did seemed totally reasonable to me. At Burning Man your gambling on the common sense or luck of a lot of other people.

Desert Duck · Post by **Desert Duck** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 6:45 pm

And THAT's why you need to BUY MY DOMES!! Totally self-contained, these domes feature a proprietary air filtration and ventilation system which prevents sun exposure, dehydration, playafoot, criminal activity AND boredom. THAT'S RIGHT. an AIR FILTER that PREVENTS BOREDOM!!!

Desert Duck · Post by **Desert Duck** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 6:47 pm

These domes contain a state-of-the-art entertainment system, climate control, and sexbots. NEVER leave your DOME AGAIN!!!

Is Burning Man still dangerous?

The Future-No Fun of Any Kind?

Except for liars, I guess