V Camp for Virgins w/Vaginas (maybe Veterans w/Vulvas too!)

Xta_G · Post by **Xta_G** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 2:40 pm

Some of us have been discussing what we would like to create for our personal comfort during our first visits to Burning Man, when we aren't affiliated with an existing Camp.

V Camp is.... whatever we want it to be, really, but so far in our discussions we've established a few things:

V Camp is not a political statement about feminism, but a place where we can create a space where we feel safe and supported, especially in our first Burning Man experience.

Men are absolutely welcome to visit V Camp when accompanied by women (or to pass through V Camp quickly with a woman, on their way into a V Camper's tent for some Burning of the Sheets)

V Camp is not a theme camp that will require its members to work shifts or build attractions for fellow Burners - we will individually find ways to gift the greater community, while leaving ourselves free to experience the wonder that is Burning Man, and eventually figuring out what sort of group projects we might like to initiate for 2007.

And... for more discussions on the Vision of V Camp, please join us at tribes.tribe.net/vcamp !

X.

hunter S · Post by **hunter S** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 4:05 pm

Great idea! but why don't you save time, money, and grief for all of us and just watch it on a video on discovery channel...( little snarky I know!) Instead of looking at the male community in BRC as dangerous or intrusive why don't you come as a group of virgins, with your own self esteem and trust that you will be welcome and possibly have one of the most mind opening experience's of your life. I just don't see the need for a camp that puts up "women only" "men only" "gay only" "straight only" some how it just goes against the idea of community to me.

helitack · Post by **helitack** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 4:17 pm

Well fuck me runnin'

or

not

thisisthatwhichis · Post by **thisisthatwhichis** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 6:11 pm

V-campers, Welcome Home!

Serving up E-cocktails at the Eplaya bar, if anyone is interested.

Xta_G · Post by **Xta_G** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 1:03 am

Hunter, thanks for your thoughtful reply.. (and thanks to the rest of you for supporting the idea!)

I've been molested or otherwise sexually assaulted at least six times through my life, from being a six-year old sitting on the knee of a crossing guard, to being an adult walking through a semi-crowded nightclub and having someone do a full-on grab and squeeze of my breast... plus some nasty stuff between, too.

My current game plan does not include travelling with anyone from Vancouver (home)... I haven't met anyone yet who is going this year, and while I am taking steps to make those connections, I don't want to count on someone else's organization to take care of me.

I haven't been to Burning Man yet to experience the community, only what I've seen/heard/read on this forum, and on Tribe. Lots of comments about nudity and sex, some of which are happy and playful and consensual, other comments or shared experiences that are not. A group of people are organizing something called BED - about preventing unpleasant experiences, educating folk about communicating desires clearly, etc... and since these are experienced Burners, it shows that shit happens on the Playa... and realisticly, I knew that it would.

With the sheer number of people, so many of them being first-timers every year, there is no way to guarantee that one or ten or one hundred of them are hoping to get some illicit action, and get their kicks out of doing it in a non-consensual way.

I'd like to limit my exposure to these people. One of the ways that I can do this is by camping with people that I already know. Since that isn't in the books right now, I'm approaching it another way, by creating a group of like-minded women who are very much men-friendly, but want to exercise caution in planning out our private spaces.

I'm not trying to suggest that only men act inappropriately... so far, all of my nasty experiences have been caused by men (excessive verbal abuse by a woman is the exception), but I work really hard at avoiding painting ALL men with that negative paintbrush. I'm looking forward to meeting some yummy men (and women) to invite back to my tent, to get to know them better and play and cuddle and do whatever else I choose to do, and they agree to.

I'm also looking forward to having some input into the people who camp around me, to maximize my first experience at Burning Man (and theirs!) and hopefully minimize any problems that would keep me from returning another year.

Hope that helps you see it from my point of view, and that you'll still welcome me into the greater community that is Burning Man.

X.

Isotopia · Post by **Isotopia** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 1:21 am

I've been molested or otherwise sexually assaulted at least six times through my life, from being a six-year old sitting on the knee of a crossing guard, to being an adult walking through a semi-crowded nightclub and having someone do a full-on grab and squeeze of my breast... plus some nasty stuff between, too.

TMI for a first paragraph intro.

Suggestion: rather than make your first experience to the event one in which you come set to isolate yourself among 30+ thousand strangers in order to 'have a good time' maybe consider taking a class or two to learn how to punch someone in the throat who invades your personal space.

scotto · Post by **scotto** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 6:49 am

Xta_G wrote: A group of people are organizing something called BED - about preventing unpleasant experiences, educating folk about communicating desires clearly, etc... X.

http://www.bureauoferoticdiscourse.org/

M-Files · Post by **M-Files** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 7:53 am

Xta_G wrote: I'm also looking forward to having some input into the people who camp around me, to maximize my first experience at Burning Man (and theirs!) and hopefully minimize any problems that would keep me from returning another year.
X.

If you expect the worst, you'll probably find the worst.

As a 4x single female Burner, let me offer some advice.

The last thing the playa needs (besides another megaphone) is another "women only" camp. Rarely do they offer the "safe space" they promise, but are often infested by lecherous wives sniffing out single females to offer up as a playa treat for their horny husbands. Ick. Please don't encourage this unfortunate trend and don't assume that only single men are a threat. Many single women will tell you that the opposite is true.

Don't confuse Burning Man with Spring Break. Sure, sex and nudity will always make the 6:00 news and all the on-line forums. But the fact is that most Burners who come to the playa without a partner simply do not have sex at Burning Man. Nope, that's not as exciting as the exotic orgiastic tales many would prefer to hear, but those are the stats.

You say you're from Vancouver. If you mean Vancouver, BC - note that that city sends thousands and thousands of Burners to the playa each year. You have no reason to travel alone, camp alone or even feel alone.

Sure, join B.E.D. Be prepared. But for heaven's sakes don't pretend that isolating yourself will somehow protect you from gawd-knows-what on the playa. As a victim of sexual assault, you should know that the most dangerous place for a woman is in her home, i.e. what's supposed to be her "safe space".

Remember: you have nothing to fear but fear itself.

Hugs,
m-files
Single Burner Female since 2001

hunter S · Post by **hunter S** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 9:32 am

M-files, you nailed it again! imho I just don't see isolation at BRC as an answer to X's concern. I think a better solution would be as M-files suggests, hook up with some local burners. then get to the playa and spend some good quality time meeting the neighbors in your camp area, if you don't feel safe then go down the road until you find people that fit. you will be very pleased I think to find so many people that will be willing to help you, keep an eye out for possible problems not just for you but for themselves too, After all it's [b]OUR HOME[/b] for a week.

If you really think about it a "all V camp" Wow like shootin fish in a barrel for some perp. I know from experience as a single guy that when I enter a group of new people, mixed sexes I spend a lot of time assessing who's with who? don't want to be steppin on my dick! My second burn I was visually attracted to a woman camped across the road with another guy, I assumed they were a couple wasn't until the last day or two I learned these two camp mates lived in different states & had been camping the burn together for years. They kept an eye on each other and shared great experience's over the years.

Not trying to be cruel, but Xta_G maybe so many bad past exsp. have come your way from thinkin like a target? Look forward to your first burn, just don't mind fuck it! it's just a camping trip! Hunter

Lassen Forge · Post by **Lassen Forge** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 10:25 am

I agree... the one advantage a woman has at home over BRC (thanks to BLM agreement with the org) IS the ability to defend herself - if she's willing to do some prep work, gather the necessary tools, and remember the serenity prayer...

God, grant me the serenity to steady my hand
the wisdom to acquire a good sight picture, and
the knowledge to pull the trigger before the SOB
gets close enough....

in solidarity...

bb

Rockdad · Post by **Rockdad** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 11:57 am

From the first Paragraph of the BM theme camp page

"Theme camps are the interactive core of Burning Man." Harley K. DuBois, Burning Man's Director of Community Services & Playa Safety Council, hesitated a second. "I hate to call this a rule, but if I have to have one it's simple: A theme camp must be participatory." It's a playful challenge to the vast reductive desert landscape, an expansion of the infectious celebratory nature of the event. "The camps keep getting bigger and better, more thought-out and polished. But," she spoke firmly now, "you always welcome anybody and everybody." We offer some guidelines to help you plan your project.

Men are absolutely welcome to visit V Camp when accompanied by women (or to pass through V Camp quickly with a woman, on their way into a V Camper's tent for some Burning of the Sheets)

Just like the supposed sex camps another exclusive camp idea! First men are welcome but then only if escorted or passing thru? You could change it to read "Black men are absolutely welcome to visit KKK Camp when accompanied by a White man or to pass through KKK Camp quickly with a White man" sounds very discriminatory but just like so many supposed PC ideas men especially white men are fair game.

My two cents you would be safer with guys in the camp guys tend to become very protective of the flock!

Another 2 cents: Bottom line sounds like you would be better off staying home you’re not emotionally/psychologically ready for Burning Man.

Dr. Pyro · Post by **Dr. Pyro** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 12:59 pm

I agree with Rockdad's last 2 cents worth note. But hay, I think it's really part of the Burning Man experience to be ostricized, segregated, and immediately distrusted because I am a male! I can just imagine what kind of names I would rightly be called if 1) I said I had never been to Burning Man and 2) any unaccompanied females need not come by for a glass of wine. This is P camp Goddamn it, you Vulvans need not apply. Somebody please shoot me.

Cabanasprings · Post by **Cabanasprings** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 1:33 pm

First me gonna start fire and invent wheel. Then me gonna hunt Vagina so that me can pull Vagina by hair back to camp to make pokey pokey.

Then me gonna invent guitar so Vagina can sign Angry Lesbian song.

Uuggg!!!

Xta_G · Post by **Xta_G** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 2:11 pm

Wow.. didn't expect this. Strange how the response on this forum is so far away from what is showing up on both Burning Women tribe and the Burning Virgins tribe.

Isotopia: Sorry, I'll try to remember to pop a warning in next time, "Personal Information Follows This Line". Your suggestion of taking a SelfDefense course isn't a bad one, but the way I'm approaching this is the same way I worked as a lifeguard: I'd rather take a few steps in advance to prevent things from happening, rather than have to use my training in reaction to preventable events.

Scotto: Thanks tons for that link. I'd seen the discussion, but hadn't seen the site.

M-Files: I don't see my plan as equivalent to "expecting the worst"... I look at it as hoping for the best, and being mindfully cautious. I don't have your four years of experience to know that some burners hold such disdain for female-positive camps... I guess I'll find that out on Playa, or maybe I'll find out that there is as much support for it as against it.. <shrug> As I said previously, I have not YET met other Vancouverites heading to BM this year... on the other hand, I HAVE bought my ticket, and am being pro-active in meeting like-minded campers to share space with, whether or not they come from my home-town, and yet I agree with you again about the high incidents of women being assaulted by someone they know.. so travelling with BurningVan crew wouldn't necessarily lessen that. And, I'm not confusing Burning Man with Spring Break. The pictures of that event make me pretty uncomfortable, whereas the pics from Burning Man keep me revved with excitement about going! (with the exception of Titty Man's Theme Camp - why is his face covered when the women's are not?)

Hunter: I find getting to know people online as effective as meeting people at local events... though I've already been able to make connections with other Burning Virgins and Burning Women through Tribe.net, and I haven't been able to get to the major Burning Vancouver events here due to work committments. The plan is, get to the playa, set up tents and shade and cooking area, and then head out and meet the city! I was talking about Burning Man with a friend, and said that I expected to be safer at BM than here in Vancouver, because if anyone calls for help at BM, people will come running, while in Vancouver it is 50/50 if someone will respond.. I'm a responder myself, and pack around gloves and a face shield so I don't have to hesitate to offer first aid to someone in distress.. and I'm quite happy knowing that the community at BM will respond in the same way. I appreciate most of the tone of your reponse, but I gotta say: your last line about "bad experiences coming your way because you think like a target" IS pretty offensive... do you really mean that? Is my interpretation of "wow, he just said that it was my fault that those things happened to me" wrong? Would you like to rephrase that, or leave it as it stands?

Bay Bridge Sue: thanks, that reminds me of something my sister would say.. but with more curse words :)

Rockdad: If you visited the V Camp tribe, you'd actually see that I've already contacted the guy who organizes theme camps, and he's quite supportive of V Camp.. when I asked about us not meeting that traditional rule, his reply included that they do support theme camps whose main intention is to provide a sense of safety to its participants. I'm not sure why you're bringing race into this discussion, so far we've only been talking about gender... and your suggestion that we'd be safer with men kinda translates as only men are strong enough to protect defenceless women... and all of that content leads me to be pretty dismissive of your opinion of my readiness to attend Burning Man.

Dr. Pyro: I don't get bitter about seeing men-only events, with the exception of things that are tax-payer funded.. that legislation in the States that forces schools to spend as much on sports for girls as for boys is a great thing! And, once the pendulum for Equal Opportunity swings too far in the women's side, I'll be very supportive of hauling it back to centre for a better power balance. I don't immediately distrust males... I did a fair amount of counselling work in my early 20s to get over that, actually, since it bothered me that I could feel it happening. If you show up at my camp entrance to say hello (in a genuinely friendly way, rather than the bitterness I'm reading here), I'll be more than happy to invite you in to sit and chat... my funding and planning don't include serving cocktails to the masses, so an offer of wine will not be forthcoming, sorry. if you want to create a camp for Pristine Penises, I'll cheer, and send solo males to check in with you and see if it is something that clicks with them when they imagine their first visit to Burning Man.

I'm curious about something, and maybe y'all could leave the personal stuff directed at me out of this for a moment, and try to provide a thoughtful response to this question:

Does it bother you to see people grouping themselves by gender more than it does to see them grouping themselves in another way? If so, why?

Thanks for the discussion!

X.

Cabanasprings · Post by **Cabanasprings** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 2:19 pm

I'm curious about something, and maybe y'all could leave the personal stuff directed at me out of this for a moment, and try to provide a thoughtful response to this question:

How do you feel comfortable asking us to leave the personal stuff out when you are such an obvious bigot?

HughMungus · Post by **HughMungus** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 2:51 pm

Xta_G wrote:Rockdad: If you visited the V Camp tribe, you'd actually see that I've already contacted the guy who organizes theme camps, and he's quite supportive of V Camp.. when I asked about us not meeting that traditional rule, his reply included that they do support theme camps whose main intention is to provide a sense of safety to its participants. I'm not sure why you're bringing race into this discussion, so far we've only been talking about gender... and your suggestion that we'd be safer with men kinda translates as only men are strong enough to protect defenceless women... and all of that content leads me to be pretty dismissive of your opinion of my readiness to attend Burning Man.

Ignore him. Anything that gets in the way of Rockdad doing whatever he wants is somehow a civil rights issue to him.

I'm curious about something, and maybe y'all could leave the personal stuff directed at me out of this for a moment

Please ignore the morons who weigh in with personal attacks.

Does it bother you to see people grouping themselves by gender more than it does to see them grouping themselves in another way? If so, why?

There already are some gender-restricted events at Burning Man so don't worry about doing a gender-restricted camp. Just like anyone else, you and your campmates want a certain level of control over your environment so don't let anyone tell you you're wrong to want that for your own camp. I know that it's not just about personal safety but you can't expect some of the people who are not you and your campmates to understand why you want to do this. And by the way -- you're not obligated to explain yourselves to anyone.

PrincessCharming · Post by **PrincessCharming** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 3:09 pm

Whoa.. all kinds of feathers getting ruffled here for some silly reason. And you guys are making some pretty rediculous comparisons (KKK? Har! really now, don't go waxin so dramatic on us..). Many of the above responses from men seem kinda elmentary-school type to me. I don't understand why it is so hard for so many guys, especially if they are as highly-evolved and as "down with the women" as they purport to be, to recognize and respect the value of a woman-oriented space, especially at an event where sexual assaults occur as often as they do. What the fuck.

Still more juvenile reactions after she explained and shared what had happened to her. What is this: "oh, she's obviously too emotionally and psychologically fragile to come to Burning Man" crap?? And even some of the classic "let's blame the victim" bullshit. I really would have expected better from burners, but thanks for the uh.. enlightenment.

I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around this. At an event where everyone is invited to get their freak on and celebrate themselves and each other in whatsoever way that they choose, why come down so hard on a woman for choosing to set up a chill, safe space for women? She's already said respectful men are welcome to come by, and that she would be inviting menof her choosing in. Wouldn't the same be the case for your own camp? And surely you're aware that there are sexual predators at the event. ...Duh??

Xta-G, I think your camp idea is awesome idea and will pop by to say hi. My partner and I are in Victoria and are driving down with her Mom and a friend. Send me a PM if you'd like.

The rest of ya's.. I can only guess that your responses area result of:

A) total ignorance (and maybe even disinterest/disregard?) as to what it can be like to be a woman on the playa and

B) you somehow feel prejudiced against and lumped in with the kind of men that attack women.. although.. some of you did just kind of jump all over her, hysterical-like.. so.. wtf...?

Rockdad · Post by **Rockdad** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 3:16 pm

Xta_G wrote:
Rockdad: If you visited the V Camp tribe, you'd actually see that I've already contacted the guy who organizes theme camps, and he's quite supportive of V Camp.. when I asked about us not meeting that traditional rule, his reply included that they do support theme camps whose main intention is to provide a sense of safety to its participants. I'm not sure why you're bringing race into this discussion, so far we've only been talking about gender... and your suggestion that we'd be safer with men kinda translates as only men are strong enough to protect defenceless women... and all of that content leads me to be pretty dismissive of your opinion of my readiness to attend Burning Man.

X.

Ok well I already spent four cents on this so here is another two cents I do not want to spend more than a dime on this crap:

I'm not sure why you're bringing race into this discussion, so far we've only been talking about gender

It was obviously a parallel example bias is bias gender or race it is still discrimination...and yes some women are able to protect themselves just fine (example: Isotopia?) but Men are generally bigger, stronger, more intimidating(situation control) and more aggressive and most of the time have more experience in the arts of self defense like it or not I still stand by what I said.
I have four baby sisters who do think they are going to call when the boogie man shows up? Hell who do think they call when a growling dog shows up?
I also find it curious how you posted your terrible experiences of having your Tittie squeezed? Damn guess I have been sexually assaulted too. I have had my butt grabbed, nipples twisted, crotch cupped, head rubbed etc.
It seems you have diminished the women who have really truly suffered from horrible assaults and rape
Another point you mention first responder! Are you big enough to crawl thru a burning house and carrying my 205 lbs out unconscious from my bed? If not leave it to the men, just stay out of the way while you’re refilling SCBA bottles a real fire ground is not a classroom discussion on gender bias on the real world fire scene real strength is required.
I have administered skills test for Firefighters not one woman could crawl over the six foot fence, not one woman could load the extension ladder on the side of the rig within the time limit, what did HR do? Tell me to give them a break and then remove the real world test’s the next year! Because they had hiring goals!
These are real world abilities used daily but now you do you think loads the ladder on the rig? Or jumps the fence? By the way it a physical deference not strength per se between women’s bodies and men’s bodies for getting over that fence with a hose and nozzle we are built differently… get over it!
With that said I really admire some female wildland firefighters I know those girls kick ass but they do not fool themselves into thinking men and women are physical strength equals

I put women on a pedestal guess you can not teach this dog new tricks! I still open doors for ladies and want to pick-up the tab and if the boat is sinking women and children first!

M-Files · Post by **M-Files** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 3:40 pm

Xta_G wrote: I don't have your four years of experience to know that some burners hold such disdain for female-positive camps...

Disdain? You mentioned a concern about unwanted sexual attention and I pointed out a possible source of concern that you apparently hadn't considered - and you consider that "disdain"?

Fair enough. One's safety and security is 90% above the neck. If you truly feel "safer" in a women-only zone, then you probably really will be "safer" there. While isolating yourself may deny you part of the BM experience, you're better off in your own security blanket, whatever it may be.

Xta_G wrote:Hunter: I appreciate most of the tone of your reponse, but I gotta say: your last line about "bad experiences coming your way because you think like a target" IS pretty offensive... do you really mean that?

Sorry if Hunter's response offended you, X - but unfortunately, he's telling the truth. The sad reality for women is that if you think like a victim, you will be a victim, plain and simple. This is the truth for women whether they're in downtown Manhatten, downtown Vancouver or downtown Black Rock City.

You don't have to believe Hunter because he is a man or believe me because I'm a veteran single female Burner who has worked with survivors of sexual and and other physical assault. But I strongly recommend that you have a meeting with your local chapter of Women Against Violence Against Women (WAVAW) before your trip to the playa. They will reiterate their first rule of advice: Do Not Think Like a Target! Empower yourself with positive thinking!

Enjoy your trip and I sincerely hope that all the advice here and your playa experiences enrich your life.

'til then,
m-files

M-Files · Post by **M-Files** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 3:49 pm

PrincessCharming wrote: The rest of ya's.. I can only guess that your responses area result of:

A) total ignorance (and maybe even disinterest/disregard?) as to what it can be like to be a woman on the playa and

On the contrary, maybe our responses are a result of genuine concern about X's well-being on the playa.

The men in this discussion made a valid point: Setting up a camp that in effect advertises "SINGLE FEMALE VIRGINS ARE CAMPED HERE!" will more than likely attract just the attention which X is trying to avoid.

As the men and myself have advised her (and she was seeking advice), she may find the protection she desires in a mixed group of friends whom she trusts.

If X, or other women, or the lovely boys at Jiffy Lube feel "safe" in their own gender-exclusive camps, so be it. It's their playa experience, however they wish to experience it - with gender-isolation or otherwise.

'til later,
m-files

hunter S · Post by **hunter S** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 4:00 pm

Xta_g, Yea your right about my last line, it didn't come out as to what I was leading to!

SORRY!!! Let me try again? I know all of the BRC community welcome you and your ideas, but speaking for myself and maybe a few others (based on some of the post's) the feeling that separation of, or exclusion towards any group hurts our community as a whole. I know things happen on the playa not only to women but to men. By letting our family separate into "safety groups" we choose to break ourselves into a "Gated community" we risk becoming a little more like the default wold! No one in this thread wants to see a segregated BRC. I know from past years on the playa that our community is very in-er dependent on each other, we have to be! Radical self-reliance works for individual health but one of the things that makes our "community" is being able to feel a connection. I think we all want....creativity, joy, art, comradery,security...to feel that we are all connected by the pure joy of living in an more "Ideal" society! (I know kinda high horse) We all choose to be in BRC together at our own personal expense, for many it's over whelming, we endure dust, wind, each other! but we also take responsibility for our community as well as our selves.

It's not Utopia! but we all hurt a little when someone, gets hurt, rapped, falsely accused.

If you can imagine how bent burners get over some yae-hoo dropping moop or flashing pictures without permission. You gotta guess how "most" 99% maybe? of the community would feel about serious personal rights violation like rape! We do police our own! doesnt mean bad shit don't happen but if you empower yourself with community...Babe we got your back!

When you hit the playa, meet the neighbors, ask for a little help (you keep an eye on mine & I'll do the same) look around ( their are 6-8 hot young guys 300 cases of beer, econo size box of condoms & 6 cans of spam, collage logos on everything! good chance you got a problem!) nothing wrong with spam!

Xta_G · Post by **Xta_G** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 4:21 pm

CabanaSprings: http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/bigot

Hughmungus: thanks! I've actually enjoyed reading your posts over the last few months, while pondering whether or not this would be my year to go to BM.. I appreciate hearing your view, and having your support.

PrincessCharming: thanks! I look forward to meeting you on the playa, if not sooner :)

Rockdad: "Men are generally bigger, stronger, more intimidating(situation control) and more aggressive" Right. And me wanting a camp of women is a bad thing? If you go back to my last post, you'd notice that I glossed over the UGLIER things that happened between the kiddie assault and the tit rubbing... but I know that I've gotten off fairly light, compared to many women. Should I consider myself lucky? That's not quite the correct response... As to your question about my physical abilities: with a rush of adrenelin, I'm sure I could get you out of your burning house. Without the adrenelin, I could get you up off the bottom of a 5.2m pool and up onto the deck by myself. I'm 5'10 and somewhere around 200lbs and play competetive waterpolo on a co-ed team where I'm usually matched up against the guys (a bunch of ex-national players from European countries, if you know anything about waterpolo). I've dated a trainer for firefighters here in BC, and he seemed to think that with some training, I would do quite well going through the exams, if I ever wanted to try it. However, considering the sexual harrassment case up against a Fire Department here in BC, placed by all the women who work there.. I think I would choose to avoid that line of work for now. (much appreciation for the women who are taking a stand, trying to do the job, and fighting for a healthy workplace)

M-Files: sorry, I was actually refering to the disdain coming from the other posters, not that I was getting that vibe from your post. I should have thanked you for the heads-up about other types of prowling folk. I am quite aware that sexual assault and harrassment can come from women as well as men, but in my experience and that of the other women talking about V Camp, it is less of a concern. Hopefully none of us get a rude awakening. Regarding me presenting myself as a victim: I will accept one of my assaults as something that I could have stopped (even though all the people who counsel about date-rape would tell me that I shouldn't blame myself). Every single other incident was not of my making, related to the way I present myself, or in response to my actions. I would think WAVAW would see V Camp as a good thing, not as a bunch of women who are only presenting themselves as a group to be victimized together. "SINGLE FEMALE VIRGINS ARE CAMPED HERE" - Sure, I see what you're saying.. but don't you think it will also hold the message "with the intention of keeping each other safe"?

Hunter: thanks so much for the re-phrase, that helps a lot, and I'll bring up your points with the folks on the VCamp tribe as a good point for pondering!

Gratitude for those of you willing to keep this as a positive, helpful discussion!

X.

Rockdad · Post by **Rockdad** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 4:51 pm

Xta_G wrote:CabanaSprings: http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/bigot

Hughmungus: thanks! I've actually enjoyed reading your posts over the last few months, while pondering whether or not this would be my year to go to BM.. I appreciate hearing your view, and having your support.

PrincessCharming: thanks! I look forward to meeting you on the playa, if not sooner

Rockdad: "Men are generally bigger, stronger, more intimidating(situation control) and more aggressive" Right. And me wanting a camp of women is a bad thing? If you go back to my last post, you'd notice that I glossed over the UGLIER things that happened between the kiddie assault and the tit rubbing... but I know that I've gotten off fairly light, compared to many women. Should I consider myself lucky? That's not quite the correct response... As to your question about my physical abilities: with a rush of adrenelin, I'm sure I could get you out of your burning house. Without the adrenelin, I could get you up off the bottom of a 5.2m pool and up onto the deck by myself. I'm 5'10 and somewhere around 200lbs and play competetive waterpolo on a co-ed team where I'm usually matched up against the guys (a bunch of ex-national players from European countries, if you know anything about waterpolo). I've dated a trainer for firefighters here in BC, and he seemed to think that with some training, I would do quite well going through the exams, if I ever wanted to try it. However, considering the sexual harrassment case up against a Fire Department here in BC, placed by all the women who work there.. I think I would choose to avoid that line of work for now. (much appreciation for the women who are taking a stand, trying to do the job, and fighting for a healthy workplace)

M-Files: sorry, I was actually refering to the disdain coming from the other posters, not that I was getting that vibe from your post. I should have thanked you for the heads-up about other types of prowling folk. I am quite aware that sexual assault and harrassment can come from women as well as men, but in my experience and that of the other women talking about V Camp, it is less of a concern. Hopefully none of us get a rude awakening. Regarding me presenting myself as a victim: I will accept one of my assaults as something that I could have stopped (even though all the people who counsel about date-rape would tell me that I shouldn't blame myself). Every single other incident was not of my making, related to the way I present myself, or in response to my actions. I would think WAVAW would see V Camp as a good thing, not as a bunch of women who are only presenting themselves as a group to be victimized together. "SINGLE FEMALE VIRGINS ARE CAMPED HERE" - Sure, I see what you're saying.. but don't you think it will also hold the message "with the intention of keeping each other safe"?

Hunter: thanks so much for the re-phrase, that helps a lot, and I'll bring up your points with the folks on the VCamp tribe as a good point for pondering!

Gratitude for those of you willing to keep this as a positive, helpful discussion!

X.

Ok I am up too eight cents now...
If you appreciate HM post's we will never see eye to eye I have him on ignore for good logical reasons..
.

"Men are generally bigger, stronger, more intimidating(situation control) and more aggressive" Right. And me wanting a camp of women is a bad thing?

Yes I think it is you want everything equal but not!
But at least you acknowledge the differences between the sexes
Notice the truth starting to emerge now... so the women firefighters have a problem up in BC? I wonder why? Maybe because they can't cut it so they file a lawsuit? Maybe fires should be more women friendly?
Bottom line I smell an agenda whether you’re willing to admit it or not! So if you need me to carry sandbags and razor wire over to your BM scared O' men bunker let me know I would be willing to help..
By the way I love water polo was a competitive swimmer myself and have drinking buddies that were on our U.S. gold medal team years ago..
If you are a Water Polo player than your fit and have stamina but at 5'10" 200 pounds? Not exactly a classic swimmers body?
But hell we are breaking stereotypes today are we not!
And I notice you spread the love around with everyone that agrees with you!
So much for radical inclusion I love ya anyhow…

By the way do you know that they torture Barbie dolls at Burning Man?

M-Files · Post by **M-Files** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 5:39 pm

Xta_G wrote: I'm 5'10 and somewhere around 200lbs

I don't get it. I'm barely more than 1/2 your size but have not been victimized the way you describe. Maybe I'm lucky. Maybe size really doesn't matter.

Xta_G wrote: "SINGLE FEMALE VIRGINS ARE CAMPED HERE" - Sure, I see what you're saying.. but don't you think it will also hold the message "with the intention of keeping each other safe"?

Sure, it would say that to me - but I'm not a rapist nor do I have any desire to bring my partner to check out the camp filled with available virgin females.

Rather than set up TIMID LITTLE WAIF CAMP - oops, sorry, couldn't resist

- here's a better idea: Why not hook up with the thousands of other Burners from your home town?

Click here: http://www.burningvan.org . That's the site of Vancouver BC's extensive Burner community. There are lots of pre-playa events presenting countless opportunities for you to form new friendships and hook up with mixed gender camps filled with new male and female friends (some coupled, others not) with whom you'll feel comfortable.

You've got 4 1/2 months until playa departure. Good luck! You've already taken some big steps to overcome your past and look positively to the future. Congratulations!

m-files

HughMungus · Post by **HughMungus** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 5:45 pm

hunter S wrote:By letting our family separate into "safety groups" we choose to break ourselves into a "Gated community" we risk becoming a little more like the default wold! No one in this thread wants to see a segregated BRC.

Not to speak for the original poster, but, we're talking about their camp, their place where they sleep, should be able to relax, etc. For example, our rule in our camp was "No strangers in the RV" because that was OUR space where we wanted to feel safe, relaxed, etc. etc. I doubt that whoever is camped at V Camp will be staying only in their camp and i doubt they will miss much.

hunter S · Post by **hunter S** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 6:09 pm

HM, huuhh? I think you missed my whole point? but I'm really not sure of your either? just to clairife for you my point was/is in general the idea of becoming a community of isolated groups limiting interaction is probably not what we would want BM to become.

If your trying to say...we can all set our own camp rules, I'm good with that! but I would hope we are still trying to effect a more interactive roll in community. I fail to see a BRC of isolated spectators being a good thing to aspire to. maybe I missed your point?

HughMungus · Post by **HughMungus** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 7:08 pm

hunter S wrote:HM, huuhh? I think you missed my whole point? but I'm really not sure of your either? just to clairife for you my point was/is in general the idea of becoming a community of isolated groups limiting interaction is probably not what we would want BM to become.

If your trying to say...we can all set our own camp rules, I'm good with that! but I would hope we are still trying to effect a more interactive roll in community. I fail to see a BRC of isolated spectators being a good thing to aspire to. maybe I missed your point?

All I'm saying is that as far as their camp goes, I think it's OK for them to have restrictions on who they want in their camp. It's their "home" for the week and I think they should restrict it however they want to feel safe. Everyone does it to varying degrees. The thing is that I doubt that Burning Man in general will go the way of groups camping in isolation from each other. Even the women in V Camp DO restrict their camp to women only, they'll all still be getting out of their camp to visit other camps so I doubt they'll stay isolated.

Oh and like I touched on earlier, it's not just about feeling safe. Just like I was saying about CT being "for women", there are very good reasons for women to have women-only events.

PrincessCharming · Post by **PrincessCharming** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 7:15 pm

Hi Again..

M-files, I was addressing the men that were attacking in their posts.
Although, I'm unclear as to your point about "thinking like a victim".. Hunter S took back his remark when he realised it sounded like he was saying Xta-G had made herself a victim by "acting like a target" or something (ie: "it was her fault", somehow). I'm hoping your point re: "thinking like a victim" differs from that.. I think you said: expecting the worst will bring it about.. As I see it, "expecting" and "taking preventative measures against the possibility" aren't quite the same thing. It just sounds like she's interested in looking out for herself and her friends, and for it to be a fresh experience they can all share as virgins. You said that you've supported victims of sexual assault for a few years now, and stated that "if you think like a victim, you will be one".. Could you explain what you mean by that?

As for V-Camp being a "sitting duck camp" or "timid little waif camp" I disagree.. I think that perspective both "expects the worst" of the men that attend and assumes the ladies don't know how to take care of themselves and each other if there is an issue. It sounds like the vision is to set it up so they are empowered and have each other's backs.. I agree it would be a good idea to go about and make friends with the neighbours.. the more people watching out, the better.. And, if some of the neighbours turn out to be creepy, you'll have a larger network of backup. M-files I'm guessing you were joking (?) but a 5'10" 200 lb water polo player doesn't like like a "waif" to me.. sounds like she could kick some serious ass if need be.. Why assume these ladies can't take care of themselves??

And Rockdad, dude, relax.. Are you of the mentality that women should not be working in male-dominated fields, and if they choose to, serves 'em right if they get harassed? It kinda seems like this is the case.. Lots of other, old-school, "boys club" type people feel the same, I'm sure. Have I misunderstood you? Please excuse me if so, but all the same, I think I'll step down off the pedestal here and look you square in the eye, brother. If you're interested at all in learning a little about the kind of sexual harassment female firefighters have been experiencing here in BC, rent the movie "North Country".. it's Hollywood, but it's got a few things going for it: it's based very closely on the true story of how women were sexually harrassed at a mine somewhere in the states, and it's really well-acted. Peace..

hunter S · Post by **hunter S** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 7:24 pm

Hugh, Thanks point noted. I think their is a good start to a thread here, more appropriate in philosophy/politics. thanks Hunter

Kinetic IV · Post by **Kinetic IV** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 7:34 pm

Protecting your inner camp as in your immediate living and sleeping space is one thing. One has every right to say who comes and goes in that space. But...if you setup as a theme camp the expectation should be one of inclusion, not exclusion. IMHO excluding people kinda flies in the face of what BM is all about, about building an experimental COMMUNITY. Now there are certain circumstances where exclusion is a must such as keeping minors out of adult themed camps and doing things to comply with State and Federal laws. But beyond that...if you choose to exclude should you really be coming to Burning Man to begin with? The whole exclusion concept just strikes me as cliquish and odd.
(/soapbox)

V Camp for Virgins w/Vaginas (maybe Veterans w/Vulvas too!)

V Camp for Virgins w/Vaginas (maybe Veterans w/Vulvas too!)

Bureau of Erotic Discourse (B.E.D.)

Keeping the playa a safe, isolation-free zone.