Why are you an atheist?

Atar · Post by **Atar** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 9:10 am

I dunno, I think some of you might have a wrong idea about how christianity works. I hope I can explain: You are forgiven no matter what if you see Jesus as your saviour. Past, present and future sins are forgiven and there's nothing to keep you from having a relationship with God but yourself. So there are no rules and there is no pre-set script in the way I experience my life, just a longing to better myself and to live my life the way Jesus would've lived it. I'm still human so I fail often, but I try and focus myself in him. I'm no co-pilot either. I'm a firm believer that I am in control of my life aswell. I just choose to live it this way.

And incidentally, while I was waiting for my son to be born and subsequently die halfway through his term, I found myself extremely comforted by the fact that there's no god. If there were a god, it would mean that the events of the universe, and the terribly painful events of those few days in my life, are governed by a horrible, cruel motherfucker; a child with a magnifying glass over the anthill of our lives. It must rob one's life of so much meaning to think that he is a pawn in the greater plan of a much greater being, who manipulates all the events in our lives to his own ends, apparently completely indifferent to the plight of his toys.

I'm honestly sorry for your loss. Can't imagine what must be like to loose a child.

As I said above I don't think thats the idea behind the message Jesus Christ told us at all though. Maybe religion as a whole has twisted this idea to put pressure on people or regulate ordinary life as they did in europe during the middle-ages.
If you read the bible you will find a different message (especially in the new testament

). God made us, mankind, as individual beings he could communicate with. But other than the angels he gave them a mind of their own, they can choose to folow him and choose against him or not choose at all. This choice made them able to love him, something which he wanted to be genuine. If there's not choice for the individual that person is an automaton. The fact so many choose against him and go blowing eachother up doesn't mean he's a cruel god or a child with a magnifying glass over the anthill of our lives. It just means us humans are murdorous sons of bitches when not in direct contact with their maker. Christians might explain him like you do at times, most often to guild-trick you into going to church. In my opinion this is WRONG. In my opinion God is a loving father that does NOT manipulate your ways or lets you follow a preset path. That would make you an automaton and make no sense at all religiously.
Now this is from my point of view, I hope that it made sense.

But anyway, I haven't seen anyone but Bringer try to explain how they'd think something like that could occur. Would most of you want to cut Emiel up just to see if he really was cured?

Rob the Wop · Post by **Rob the Wop** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 9:26 am

Oh I've spent time reading the Bible. Part of my life was in St. Ann's Catholic school during my junior high years. And as an Italian in a Roman Catholic (mostly) family, I understand your stance.

But many people try and interpret the Bible in different ways. It's sad really, a number of them use it for political means. This has been the way of religion throughout the ages. I'm sure you're aware of the Red Menace era and 'Kill a commie for Christ'. Still happening for that matter, just a different enemy. Weird too, as Mohammed specifically taught tolerance towards Christians and Jews. Just another example of politics twisting good teachings towards evil means.

The one of the main issues I've had with religion is the perception that an atheist cannot have good morals. I cannot (do not) seek divine forgiveness for my actions. Instead, I live with my mistakes and try to seek reparations.

The way I see it- if it works for you, and you don't try to force it upon me, then it's all good.

the fire elf · Post by **the fire elf** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 11:20 am

Atar wrote:I hope I can explain: You are forgiven no matter what if you see Jesus as your saviour.

if your sight is less than pure, your experience of jesus (here-after reffered to as 'some-guy') is less than pure...it may be clouded with any assortment of falsehoods, even the insidious one: that you are authentically experiencing salvation from some-guy when in fact you are not...

Atar wrote:So there are no rules and there is no pre-set script in the way I experience my life, just a longing to better myself and to live my life the way Jesus would've lived it.

some-guy walked around and told people to give away all their wealth and come walk around with him...if you were in the crew, you might have even gotten your feet washed after walking around with some-guy...wine, prostitutes, rogues and theives...sounds like a good time...

Atar wrote:I'm a firm believer that I am in control of my life aswell.

firm trees snap in a storm...snapping can be part of a healthy growth process...only when all sense of 'self' breaks down and falls away does true peace begin...bring on the storm...

Atar wrote:I'm honestly sorry for your loss. Can't imagine what must be like to loose a child.

sorrow?...some-guy you purport to fashion your life after told you to let the dead bury the dead...

Atar wrote:As I said above I don't think thats the idea behind the message Jesus Christ told us at all though. Maybe religion as a whole has twisted this idea to put pressure on people or regulate ordinary life as they did in europe during the middle-ages.

squeeze a watermelon seed firmly between two fingers, and the seed goes shooting off...

Atar wrote:But other than the angels he gave them a mind of their own, they can choose to folow him and choose against him or not choose at all.

angels had a choice...serve in heaven or rule in hell...

Atar wrote:The fact so many choose against him and go blowing eachother up doesn't mean he's a cruel god or a child with a magnifying glass over the anthill of our lives. It just means us humans are murdorous sons of bitches when not in direct contact with their maker.

being part and parcel of your maker, you are ever in direct contact, nes-pas? whether you play the part of a sock-puppet on the arm of a manipulative father of some-guy, or a child seeking to surpass the glory of the father, or some-other-guy who decides the garden needs weeding

Atar wrote:Now this is from my point of view, I hope that it made sense.

from my point of view, i hope i didn't offend

Atar wrote:Would most of you want to cut Emiel up just to see if he really was cured?

naw...curing the sick may seem to contradict the unfathomable wisdom that gifted them sickness in the first place...

but cutting someone up sounds like moop...all their bits and peices are best left undisturbed...

HughMungus · Post by **HughMungus** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 12:19 pm

Ranger Genius wrote:If there were a god, it would mean that the events of the universe, and the terribly painful events of those few days in my life, are governed by a horrible, cruel motherfucker

Based on your very narrow definition, yes. Based on the realm of possibilities of god's nature, no. Funny that you insist that your definition is the only one that is possible and, therefore, impossible to you.

HughMungus · Post by **HughMungus** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 12:20 pm

bringer wrote:I don't play that game with you.
Why do you play it with me?

Read the book. Re-read the thread.

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 12:51 pm

If there were a god, it would mean that the events of the universe, and the terribly painful events of those few days in my life, are governed by a horrible, cruel motherfucker

I hear stuff like that a lot. The way I like to think about it is that a universe was created, who knows how, where any number of outcomes are possible. We have choices, all of us together have choices and someonetimes one choice impacts the existance of another ... maybe a "butterfly wings" thing. So it isn't so much about God's will in a micro sense in that the outcome of every single thing that happens is predetermined as it is in a macro sense that we have the opportunity to do the right thing in any situation if we choose to. Sometimes bad things happen that aren't a result of our actions, but even these things present an opportunity to do the right thing. Many times we don't always do exactly what is right and that needs to happen sometimes too. If it didn't, there would be no such thing as forgiveness or repentance. It isn't about believing literally in exactly what is written, it is more about abstracting from that writing lessons on how to be true to what is right and being able to change and being able to forgive others of their mistakes and giving them the chance to change. And it is also about not giving up and losing your faith in what is right. Basically, it is about giving a set of stories that when meditated upon, act to build a conscience. Taking things too literally is, in my opinion, a recipie for disaster and one is bound to turn themselves into what it is they would want to be against though hatred and intolerance.

My religious beliefs are kinda unique to me, I tend to borrow concepts as needed from various religions I have explored. I wouldn't say I am athiest but I wouldn't say I believe in God in a traditional, conventional sense either.

helitack · Post by **helitack** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 1:10 pm

I am wondering if hugh wins this unwinnable argument, what is the prize or the freekin point to this? Are you going to wear a sandwich board on the playa that states, in big bold letters, "I am Hugh, the argument King", or what?

HughMungus · Post by **HughMungus** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 1:22 pm

helitack wrote:I am wondering if hugh wins this unwinnable argument, what is the prize or the freekin point to this? Are you going to wear a sandwich board on the playa that states, in big bold letters, "I am Hugh, the argument King", or what?

It's not to be won. I'm agnostic so I'm not trying to get anyone to believe that there is (or isn't) a god. I just don't understand how someone can believe as fact that "there is no god" when it can't be proven or disproven. Why not just be agnostic?

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 1:24 pm

Arguing with people about religion is really dangerous for lots of reasons. One is that some people have based a lot of life decisions on a foundation that is their religion. If you start to call that into question, you start calling into question these decisions and they life they have built. They get defensive and it becomes not so much defending their religion as it is defending their own life choices. Someone might make a choide that causes them daily grief but they endure it because of faith. Start to tell them that their foundation is hollow and they might begin to question a whole set of decisions and their life comes flying apart like shingles off a roof in a windstorm.

helitack · Post by **helitack** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 1:25 pm

Why not, for the sake of argument, quit wondering why people, who are not you, believe what they do, because what they believe, is not what you believe, and makes no matter whatsoever in this, or any other, place.

Because, nobody really gives a shit.

HughMungus · Post by **HughMungus** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 1:37 pm

helitack wrote:Why not, for the sake of argument, quit wondering why people, who are not you, believe what they do, because what they believe, is not what you believe, and makes no matter whatsoever in this, or any other, place.

What I believe doesn't matter. I'm trying to quantify someone else's belief, not qualify it.

helitack · Post by **helitack** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 1:41 pm

Would you hold my second camera while I photograph critical tits then?

bringer · Post by **bringer** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 1:41 pm

HughMungus wrote:What I believe doesn't matter. I'm trying to quantify someone else's belief, not qualify it.

Nah.
You're trying to qualify it.
Admit it:

You're a qualifier.

What you believe doesn't matter?
How sad for you.

Rob the Wop · Post by **Rob the Wop** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 1:43 pm

geekster wrote:Arguing with people about religion is really dangerous for lots of reasons. One is that some people have based a lot of life decisions on a foundation that is their religion. If you start to call that into question, you start calling into question these decisions and they life they have built. They get defensive and it becomes not so much defending their religion as it is defending their own life choices. Someone might make a choide that causes them daily grief but they endure it because of faith. Start to tell them that their foundation is hollow and they might begin to question a whole set of decisions and their life comes flying apart like shingles off a roof in a windstorm.

Oh jeez no. I don't mind someone asking me why I made my choices. It just bothers me when they don't accept the answer. Had I known Hugh had the demeanor of a rabid crusading Evangelist, I would not have answered the question. A structured and logical debate takes two people capable of such. I was fooled into thinking that this was a serious question instead of some bizzarro world attempt at converting others to agnosticism by playground debate tactics.

EvilDustBooger · Post by **EvilDustBooger** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 1:43 pm

I think that "Beliefs" are a wonderful topic for discussion, though religion
usually is a testy subject best fought over by the truly intrepid.
...and between the blatant misinterpretations, word posturing and mambi-pambi personal stuff,...
... this thread has produced some well thought out and nicely articulated views and opinions. (a few)

Kudos to those posters who clearly stated and shared views, opinions & ideas in spite of the idiotic proceedings....

and now stay tuned for more turds flying....

helitack · Post by **helitack** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 1:45 pm

New Name:

nevermind

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 2:05 pm

I don't mind someone asking me why I made my choices. It just bothers me when they don't accept the answer.

Yeah, bothers me too when I run into that. It isn't just religion either, often there are other issues such as politics where people's opinions are so intertwined in their personal identity that any debate feels like a personal attack and gets defended vigorously. A giveaway is when someone expresses an opinion and someone else goes all ad hominem in their response. When people attack the messenger rather than the message, chances are they have felt attacked or invalidated personally. People tend to respond to what they perceive as a personal attack with a return personal attack. It becomes easier to discredit the person bearing the information to somehow make the information itself less valid rather than to debate what is said directly. It is really difficult to have a constructive discussion with people like that because at that point they are on a crusade of personal validation and their mind can close up faster than batfink's wings of steel in a reflexive protective response. Another common technique is to simply ignore what was said and continue "talking past" the other person as if they never said anything at all. Other indications are: Answering questions with questions. Answering with unrelated information (trying to derail the uncomfortable conversation). Making rote statements of doctrine with no additional substance. When I see stuff like that, I get tempted to give up and say "have a nice day".

Just a shame that people really need their own conclusions to be validated by others in order to somehow feel personally validated. I agree with you, Rob. If I have a differing opinion, I don't mind sharing it and even telling why I reached that conclusion and we can discuss how each of us reached out own conclusions and exchange insights and ideas but to simply say "read the book" it tells me that there won't be a whole lot of thinking going on beyond that point. Sorry, I'm not going to allow anyone to script my spiritual being for me.

Rob the Wop · Post by **Rob the Wop** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 2:24 pm

geekster wrote:If I have a differing opinion, I don't mind sharing it and even telling why I reached that conclusion and we can discuss how each of us reached out own conclusions and exchange insights and ideas but to simply say "read the book" it tells me that there won't be a whole lot of thinking going on beyond that point. Sorry, I'm not going to allow anyone to script my spiritual being for me.

Did you read up on where I first said that? It was in response to my statement that "prove there is no X" is logically invalid. It's a simple proof, but requires a basis of logic to understand. Both me and RG tried to point that out. I personally gave a link to a logic primer. At about this point I changed from trying to engage in discussion, to simply being abusive. The full statement is "read a book on the basics of logic, then reread the thread (specifically the portion detailing why proving the non-existance of a member of an infinite set is invalid). But after numerous attempts at civilly trying to point that out using different examples- I gave up.

HughMungus · Post by **HughMungus** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 8:03 pm

bringer wrote:What you believe doesn't matter?

I agree.

How sad for you.

Not at all. Just trying to understand.

HughMungus · Post by **HughMungus** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 8:04 pm

Rob the Wop wrote:
geekster wrote:Arguing with people about religion is really dangerous for lots of reasons. One is that some people have based a lot of life decisions on a foundation that is their religion. If you start to call that into question, you start calling into question these decisions and they life they have built. They get defensive and it becomes not so much defending their religion as it is defending their own life choices. Someone might make a choide that causes them daily grief but they endure it because of faith. Start to tell them that their foundation is hollow and they might begin to question a whole set of decisions and their life comes flying apart like shingles off a roof in a windstorm.
Oh jeez no. I don't mind someone asking me why I made my choices. Had I known Hugh had the demeanor of a rabid crusading Evangelist, I would not have answered the question. A structured and logical debate takes two people capable of such. I was fooled into thinking that this was a serious question instead of some bizzarro world attempt at converting others to agnosticism by playground debate tactics.

A logical, reasonable argument doesn't rely on external information ("Read the book").

It just bothers me when they don't accept the answer.

It's not for me to accept or not accept. What is for me to accept or not accept is whether you've convinced me that your belief that god doesn't exist is supported by a logical argument. It's not.

HughMungus · Post by **HughMungus** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 8:10 pm

Rob the Wop wrote:
geekster wrote:If I have a differing opinion, I don't mind sharing it and even telling why I reached that conclusion and we can discuss how each of us reached out own conclusions and exchange insights and ideas but to simply say "read the book" it tells me that there won't be a whole lot of thinking going on beyond that point. Sorry, I'm not going to allow anyone to script my spiritual being for me.
Did you read up on where I first said that? It was in response to my statement that "prove there is no X" is logically invalid. It's a simple proof, but requires a basis of logic to understand. Both me and RG tried to point that out. I personally gave a link to a logic primer.

Which brings us back to the same question as before: If you can't prove there is no god, how can you be an atheist?

At about this point I changed from trying to engage in discussion, to simply being abusive.

That's obvious.

The full statement is "read a book on the basics of logic

Again, if you can't disprove the existence of god, since it's logically impossible, how can you believe that there is no god? Could you just answer that one question?

helitack · Post by **helitack** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 8:20 pm

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Now, will you hold my second camera while I photograph CT? Cumon Hugh, it'll be fun.

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 8:24 pm

I hadn't read the whole thread, still haven't, but in general a book on logic should be read at least once in a person's lifetime, along with a book on semantics (not saying anything about semantics here, just sayin, it is handy to know that semantics IS important and can add subtle shadings that can completely change meanings and in the sense discourse analysis) so now I can understand Rob's consternation. He was trying to explain that something was illogical, pointed out a reference so that the other involved in the debate might read it and re-phrase their argument and they refused. If that is what went on, yeah, that would tend to end any meaningful debate with me too.

HughMungus · Post by **HughMungus** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 9:10 pm

geekster wrote:I hadn't read the whole thread, still haven't, but in general a book on logic should be read at least once in a person's lifetime, along with a book on semantics (not saying anything about semantics here, just sayin, it is handy to know that semantics IS important and can add subtle shadings that can completely change meanings and in the sense discourse analysis) so now I can understand Rob's consternation. He was trying to explain that something was illogical, pointed out a reference so that the other involved in the debate might read it and re-phrase their argument and they refused. If that is what went on, yeah, that would tend to end any meaningful debate with me too.

Yes, if you refuse to answer a simple question that destroys your whole premise.

Ranger Genius · Post by **Ranger Genius** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 12:02 am

Or, more to the point, if you answer it repeatedly to a respondent who has the intellectual capacity of a houseplant.

Your imbecilic question has been answered, again and again, by several different posters, in probably a dozen different ways, succinctly and at great length, but still you just repeat it like a defective (and particularly dense) see-n-say.

My plonk list is getting dangerously close to doubling. The fire elf will have good company.

Rockdad · Post by **Rockdad** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 12:10 am

Ranger Genius wrote:Or, more to the point, if you answer it repeatedly to a respondent who has the intellectual capacity of a houseplant.

Your imbecilic question has been answered, again and again, by several different posters, in probably a dozen different ways, succinctly and at great length, but still you just repeat it like a defective (and particularly dense) see-n-say.

My plonk list is getting dangerously close to doubling. The fire elf will have good company.

ROTFL Fuck it hurts! houseplant see-n-say!

helitack · Post by **helitack** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 7:27 am

Hugh! Try this!!!!

Blah Blah Blah

now repeat

ad infinitum

Sounds just like you, amazing.

Kinetic IV · Post by **Kinetic IV** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 7:34 am

Speaking of houseplants, with some plants like daffodils remember that a tipple of gin is like the equivalent of herbal viagra. It keeps the plants standing up tall! So next time you pour a drink for yourself make sure and give your plants a shot too!
Cite:
http://www.channeloklahoma.com/houseand ... etail.html

We now return to the never ending argument......

BigCock · Post by **BigCock** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 8:09 am

Wow, I can't believe this has gone on for 14 pages. I'm afraid I don't have an hour to read the whole thread. But just going from the topic title and first post - why be an athiest and does that acknowledge that God exists - athiests have explained to me that they think living in reference to a God is a really bad idea. The actual existence or non-existence of God is beside the point. What non-athiests have explained to me is this: God is a word that describes the great oneness of the cosmos. The creation story is the story of humanity's awakening to this great oneness - it's like a birth. Living in awareness and harmony with this oneness and believing that it matters is believing in God.

In either case, I think the notion that God is either an all-powerful, all-controlling, active player or non-existent is a pretty extreme and limiting dichotomy.

Rockdad · Post by **Rockdad** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 8:12 am

Kinetic IV wrote:Speaking of houseplants, with some plants like daffodils remember that a tipple of gin is like the equivalent of herbal viagra. It keeps the plants standing up tall! So next time you pour a drink for yourself make sure and give your plants a shot too!
Cite:
http://www.channeloklahoma.com/houseand ... etail.html

We now return to the never ending argument......

Speaking of Tipples

World's earliest tipple discovered in China
22:00 06 December 2004
NewScientist.com news service
Jeff Hecht

Fermented beverages made from honey, grapes and hawthorn fruit were stored in vessels sometimes found at burial sites

Chemical tests on ancient fragments of broken pottery show that Chinese villagers were brewing alcoholic drinks as far back as 7000 BC. That beats the previous record for the oldest evidence of brewing, found in Iran and dated at about 5400 BC.

The oldest known Chinese texts, from the Shang dynasty period of 1200 BC to 1046 BC, mention three types of alcoholic drink. Archaeologists had suspected that fermented drinks had been developed much earlier because older bronze vessels and pottery resembled those used for the Shang dynasty drinks.

However, solid evidence had been lacking until a Chinese-American team studied potsherds - radiocarbon-dated at 7000 BC to 6600 BC - from the oldest portion of Jiahu, a village from the Neolithic period in Henan province. This cultural period is characterised by primitive crop growing and the use of flint tools and weapons.

The team compared residues extracted from the potsherds with liquids remaining in tightly sealed vessels dated to the Shang dynasty. Their analysis of the Jiahu residues revealed traces of compounds found in rice, as well as the ancient Shang dynasty wines.

They found that 13 of the 16 potsherds tested had contained the same material. It was "a consistently processed beverage made from rice, honey and a fruit", say the researchers.

Tartrate source
The analysis revealed tartrates – a chemical concentrated in the seeds of grapes and hawthorn trees which are common in China. And indeed the only fruit seeds excavators reported finding at the Jiahu site came from these plants.

Although fermentation can occur naturally, wines must be sealed in containers to keep bacteria from converting the alcohol to vinegar. Jiahu is the oldest Chinese site with pottery - wood or leather containers would not have survived and so alcoholic beverage production could have gone even further back into Chinese history.

Patrick McGovern at the University of Pennsylvania Museum in Philadelphia, US, who led the study believes that honey, grapes and hawthorn fruit gave the Jiahu brewers the sugar and yeast they needed to start fermentation. Later Chinese brewers developed a technique called mould saccharification, which breaks the complex carbohydrates of rice into simple sugars that can be fermented. That process yielded more specialised drinks including ancient and modern rice wines.

Why brewing developed nearly simultaneously in east Asia and the middle east is something “we haven't resolved yet", McGovern told New Scientist. "The expanse of central Asia in between would seem to preclude any direct connection," he says, but more research may show links - or a common origin.

Well unless you were talking about

tipple (1)

SYLLABICATION: tip·ple
PRONUNCIATION: tpl
TRANSITIVE & INTRANSITIVE VERB: Inflected forms: tip·pled, tip·pling, tip·ples
To drink (alcoholic liquor) or engage in such drinking, especially habitually or to excess.
NOUN: Alcoholic liquor.
ETYMOLOGY: Perhaps back-formation from Middle English tipeler, bartender.
OTHER FORMS: tippler —NOUN

Tipple (2)

SYLLABICATION: tip·ple
PRONUNCIATION: tpl
NOUN: 1a. An apparatus for unloading freight cars by tipping them. b. The place where this is done. 2. A place for screening coal and loading it into trucks or railroad cars.
ETYMOLOGY: From dialectal tipple, to overturn, frequentative of tip2.

Either way thats a hell of a lot of Gin!