Is Burning Man still dangerous?

All things outside of Burning Man.
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Zhust
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Calm down, it's rhetorical ...

Post by Zhust » Fri Mar 31, 2006 9:56 am

DoctorIknow wrote:What bugs me is the less easily definable feeling I have that its my responsibility to make others feel safe, secure, non-threatened, and I don’t mean by harming them physically.
DoctorIknow wrote:There used to be a guy with a powered amp in a RadioFlyer strolling down the streets at sunrise, every morning, hurling nasty insults to all sleepers.
So you want others to tolerate actions that annoy them but you don't want others to do things that annoy you?

Is this hypocrisy? If not, how?
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Re: Ain't what it used to be

Post by Rob the Wop » Fri Mar 31, 2006 10:44 am

jaycerochester wrote: What I mean is, pull a 22-year-old from the suburbs who's been told what to do all his life, put him in a situation where he can do whatever he wants, and hand him a gun, and a few of them are going to wonder "hey, what's it like to kill someone?" and then act on it.
You don't need a gun to kill someone. I simply hate seeing people blaming a piece of steel for today's issues.

If they truely wanted to kill someone, there are tons of bladed weapons and blunt objects that are more effective in close ranges. Should we ban any knife with a blade over x inches? Search for axes and poisons?

I run 'cute shoots' in the Cacophony Society up in Oregon and I've never had someone new to guns freak out. If there is an idiot handing loaded guns to drug addled strangers at a desert party and urging them to kill- then they are the problem. When there were 15,000 people and guns were around- there wasn't problems. I don't think we need to worry about your scenario. Besides, if someone really wanted to do that- they could bring their own guns in without any problem. Simply having a gun around is NOT an automatic catalyst for violence.

Moot point anyway since they banned guns.
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Re: Calm down, it's rhetorical ...

Post by DoctorIknow » Fri Mar 31, 2006 11:55 am

[quote="jaycerochester"][quote="DoctorIknow"]What bugs me is the less easily definable feeling I have that its my responsibility to make others feel safe, secure, non-threatened, and I don’t mean by harming them physically.[/quote]

[quote="DoctorIknow"]There used to be a guy with a powered amp in a RadioFlyer strolling down the streets at sunrise, every morning, hurling nasty insults to all sleepers.[/quote]

So you want others to tolerate actions that annoy them but you don't want others to do things that annoy you?

Is this hypocrisy? If not, how?[/quote]

Sorry, I didn't articulate well enough.

I was trying to say I miss my perception that people could do outrageous and uncomfortable (to me) things without considering my feelings. My current perception is that individuals are expressing their need to feel safe, and many are pandering to this idea. BM has become a breeding ground for conservatives as far as I can see it....

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Post by geekster » Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:07 pm

American society as a whole is much less violent that it was only 10 years ago according to law enforcement statistics. Violent crime is now about 50% less than it was at it's peak only around 10 years ago. Teen crime is down 75%. Our culture hasn't quite caught up with it yet and violent cop shows are still a big part of our entertainment diet but overall on a per capita basis, our society is about as violent now as it was in the early 1960's. Part of the "problem" is with how news is reported. When there is some particularly heinous incident, everyone hears about instantly and continues hearing about it over and over again until the trial which they hear about over and over, night after night for weeks and then it gets embellished with all sorts of speculation and a crime becomes bigger than it really is. We tend to distort things. If something also touches what is a political hot button for people, it gets all the more distortion, discussion, speculation and proportion enhancement. Firearms are an example. Controlling access to them is a major political issue for some so anything involving the misuse of one is not only reported for what it is, but it also becomes infused into a larger political debate and so grows a second set of legs used for a completely different purpose. An example of something being drawn out ad nauseum might be the tragic case of the high school senior in Aruba. In the past week there have been officials in Aruba speculating that the cause of death might have been alcohol poisoning even though they have found no body and no toxicology tests can be performed. It is just more news to keep the story alive making it larger than life.

Danger is something writers love. It causes people to read what they have written. The media loves things you can't taste, hear, touch, smell, or see but can kill you beacause people are going to want to read about it to learn how they might avoid it. When something like SARS comes around, the media plays it up. West Nile virus is the latest instance. California is spending millions on an information program for a disease that kills fewer people than the flu ... by orders of magnitude. In California there were 8 deaths from West Nile in 2005.

It has nothing to do with REAL danger or real risk of death or injury, it is about perception but more about priority. If someone is shot, they are much "deader" than someone who was intentionally run over by a car. Deaths by intentional running over with a car disappear quickly because people are very used to hearing of fatalities happening when a motor vehicle is involved and there is little outrage and no political agenda associated with it. Had that person used a different weapon to perform the deed such as a firearm or an art car at Burning Man, it would be huge news and there would be much debate and wringing of hands and gnashing of teeth. The person is still just as dead, the murderer just as guilty, but if someone runs someone down in Peoria, you probably aren't going to hear about it in Bakersfield.

Bottom line is that certain things SEEM to happen more often because you hear about every single instance of certain types of things and do not hear about the same things done in different ways so you aren't given the proper context from which a good perspective can be developed. Basically, blather is bad. Don't judge the danger of your surroundings based on dangers reported from other surroundings because chances are you aren't getting the complete picture and can't come to an intelligent conclusion.
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Re: Ain't what it used to be

Post by Niacin » Fri Mar 31, 2006 1:24 pm

jaycerochester wrote:In an environment with a defacto gift economy, it never dawned on me to hoard Burning Man itself.
This is a good point for the burnier-than-thou types.

The Org is trying a very fine balance between mitigating danger enough to keep having the Burn and Nerf Man. Look at it this way: if footage of Hellco burning with a man on a zip line is shown on Fox News with the subtitle "So-Called 'Fire Art' Kills 2, Maims 40 at Nevada Festival", there won't be a Burn at all.
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Post by Niacin » Fri Mar 31, 2006 1:27 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:
CLARKcon wrote:That doesn't sound like "The Happiest Place on Earth"...
Well, duh. It's like the streets in suburbs--named after things that aren't actually there.
"The suburbs are where they pave over the trees and name the streets after the trees".
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Post by gyre » Sat Apr 01, 2006 9:28 am

Shouldn't the run with scissors race be a figure eight?
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Post by SED » Sat Apr 01, 2006 10:55 am

Figure eight with some electrified barbed wire hurdles.

How's this concept?

Hot Bocci

Contestants play the game of Bocci using iron balls in place of the traditional plastic or marble.

When a player loses a point or a round, or is subject to any penalty, his/her balls are place on a glowing hot hibachi for a set length of time. They are then required to contunie play without the aid of gloves.


See this item on my latest thread, How to Make Burning Man More Dangerous
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The bigger picture

Post by Zhust » Sat Apr 01, 2006 3:12 pm

Although we've been dickering about the merits and dangers of such things as guns and fire, I think there's a more general topic that encompasses all these ideas.

What is the basis for authority?

I've been taking in what everyone has been stating and I think that the crux of the whole argument is that there is no natural precedent for "authority." That is, there is no set of rules to define what should or should not be allowed, and there are no people who are inherently more qualified than anybody else to tell someone what to do.

Authority is an artificial construct that we as a community have created to, theoretically, bring order to a chaotic world. However, all it does is make some people feel like they're better than everybody else.

But then again, there is something to be said for knowledge. It's quite the paradox, though, that the only people who can accurately identify an expert is someone who is an expert. Everybody else can be fooled by someone claiming to be an expert.

So why give anybody any authority at all? The only people who should be allowed to tell other people what to do are those who have expertise, but the reality is that it is also people who can feign expertise.

As for Burning Man, I appreciate the idea that nobody has authority. Unfortunately, the event is held in a place where there are people who assume jurisdiction and responsibility -- and whose authority is simply assumed to be proper by virtually all the rest of the population.

The "real" question is not whether [X] should be banned from Burning Man, but why do we allow somoene to have the right to make that decision?

P.S. April Fool! I had you there for a minute, didn't I? I don't really believe any of that crap ... if it weren't for authority, who would keep our children safe? You can't possibly argue that you don't want children to be safe, now can you?
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Post by geekster » Sat Apr 01, 2006 3:23 pm

Oh, I see you have never received a sternly worded letter from The Council of Mommies. I expect to be getting one soon for my Great Scissors Relay suggestion. They are constantly on the lookout for unsafe activities. Their reasoning is that Burning Man is a family friendly event and by holding such activities you are setting a bad example and undermining their efforts to teach their children how to behave. Imagine telling your child not to run with scissors after they have witnessed such an event! That is why I suggested midnight. This is an ADULTS ONLY scissors race.

The Council of Mommies writes very sternly worded non-binding demands under threat of uttering harsh words behind your back, glaring at you in public, and telling their kids that you are a major meanie. I am hoping that with all the activity surrounding their contract work at the UN in assisting the security council with sternly worded letters to Iran that they won't notice.
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Post by Zulegoona » Sat Apr 01, 2006 3:28 pm

Oh Man Geekster, your in Sooo much trouble for even mentioning the Council of you know what, in a public forum , you better get like a can of peaches or something and hang out in the garage for awhile.

Good luck man

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Post by geekster » Sat Apr 01, 2006 3:35 pm

Well, I am about -> <- (that) close to creating The Council of Meanies to balance The Council of Mommies. It would be our manifesto that the words "you risk injury or death" should have real meaning and not be simply a nod to days of yore. Rather than sternly worded letters, we would express our conclusions with mass moonings, gigawatt sound systems playing endless loops of In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida, flame belching in your general direction and possibly even (gasp) very loud explosive noises!

Oh, and I almost forgot, we would hand out whistles to all participants under age 8.
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Post by Zulegoona » Sat Apr 01, 2006 3:41 pm

Bet your just saying that because everybody knows playa chicks go for the bad boys,....

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Post by geekster » Sat Apr 01, 2006 3:44 pm

Yeah, DPW gets all the hot chicks
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Post by Zulegoona » Sat Apr 01, 2006 3:47 pm

yeah and most of DPW chicks are tougher than both of us put together

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Post by geekster » Sat Apr 01, 2006 4:04 pm

Oh that is such crap, I hear Playa Info can kick DPW's ass with half their computers tied behind their backs.
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Post by Zulegoona » Sat Apr 01, 2006 4:14 pm

Hey, your onto something there, organize the figure eight race “ RUNNING WITH SCISSORS” between the DPW and Playa Information. and after the race there would be bound to be more hot chicks available.

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A tad off topic

Post by scruffyboy » Sat Apr 01, 2006 7:37 pm

I worked in Yosemite for a year and heard complaints from some "lessor" abled persons that there was not enough being done to provide access. Shortly afterwards a parapeligic ranger completed a climb up Half Dome.
When interviewed on the subject about access he replied (and I'm paraphrasing here) There's nothing wrong with acccess here or in any of teh National Parks.
Just goes to show where there's a will there's a way.







I miss the drive-by shooting range!

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Post by geekster » Sat Apr 01, 2006 7:56 pm

*sigh*

I have just been informed by at least one member of The Council of Mommies that the Scissors Relay has not escaped their notice. They intend to produce informational posters warning of the danger and will likely have participants at the scissors relay picketing the race. Damn.

An alternative idea might be something like the temple burn, only completely different. Rather than placing a burden or a sorrow or a guilt into the temple for incineration, all that have had some problem with the org over the past year can gather for a mass mooning of First Camp. Pyrotechnics can be involved but people would be responsible for providing their own gas supply and ignition source.
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an alternate BRC timeline (just in time for April Fools Day)

Post by Tiahaar » Sat Apr 01, 2006 10:30 pm

Thanks to Phil over in another thread pointing the way to this wonderful bit of work, and many thanks to author Greg X. Presley (who will likely be ok with posting this in the forum but might be pissed if I printed up T-shirts and sold them to finance my theme camp):

Yes, Virginia, there is a Burning OSHA
This news report is provided by Greg X. Presley

Here's a look back from the future at the trend toward increased personal safety which is, of course, now the main focus of the Burning Man Festival.

[dateline 2008] Yes, Virginia, there is a Burning OSHA.

1991-1994 - the Dark Years. No rules, no limits, no concern for safety. Drive-by Shooting Gallery. The Exploding Man. Uncontrolled fires in many camps. Daredevils jump over the still-burning remains of the Man.

1995 - Uncontrolled rave camps flourish. Numerous vehicles bury themselves in the mud of Lake Lahontan. Helicopter evacuations of injured/ill participants occur daily. BLM and County Sheriffs step up presence in response to increasing threats to public safety. Black Rock Rangers formed as internal safety force. First crowd control efforts instituted during the Burn. Central First-Aid facilities established.

1996 - First Burning Man-associated fatality. Multiple serious injuries caused by reckless driving. Fire installations produce sheets of flame up to 100' high. HellCo theme panned as 'deeply disturbing'. First fence erected, to catch wind-blown trash. Pets prohibited after playa environment deemed too hostile for animals.

1997 - Move to Hualapai Playa. First restrictions on vehicle ingress and egress. Rave camps are banned. Uncontained fires prohibited in campsites. Restrictions on use of fire as part of art installations; 50 firefighters kept on standby alert. The Man ignited by professional pyrotechnicians. Fencing erected across playa, to catch trespassers.

1998 - Return to Black Rock Desert. Tiki torches banned as unsafe. Vehicle use within camp prohibited, except for ingress and egress. Re-entry fee first imposed. Mobile units added to First-Aid resources. First appearance of a 'Vehicle-Free' camp district. Fencing erected around entire event, to protect the environment.

1999 - Water installations no longer supported due to Health Dep't. concerns. The Man burns on Saturday night to avoid a post-Burn traffic jam. All BBQ's declared banned after the CMR Ranch uses one to explode a propane tank. Fencing is erected around The Man after a rogue attempt to burn him prematurely almost succeeds.

2000 - First 'Survival-Preparedness' inspections at gate. All fires banned except for The Man himself. Pedal Camp becomes the first Theme Camp denied placement because of an 'unsafe attitude'. Fencing is erected between 'Loud' and 'Quiet' sides of Black Rock City at request of a committee of safety-conscious participants. Separate tickets required to attend Burn Night, in response to continuing crowd-control problems.

2001 - Black Rock City declared an alcohol-and-drug-free zone. Loud noises banned after midnight. The Man burns on Monday night after concerns over crowd safety force a two-day delay. First City-wide pre-assigned camping. Fencing erected around those Theme Camps deemed unsafe by the new Safety Committee.

2002 - First appearance of Gated Theme Camps. Background checks run on ticket purchasers as a safety-prevention measure. All amplified noise is prohibited; drums used after midnight are confiscated. 'Snitch-on-a-Freak' program is instituted after rumors of an anti-safety backlash surface. Black Rock Rangers issued sidearms for their own protection. The Man burns but is doused with water immediately afterwards.

2003 - 'Survival' theme is abandoned as too hazardous; concessionaires brought in to ensure every participants' comfort and security. All private vehicles prohibited; the Black Rock Travel Agency provides shuttle service from Gerlach. Theme Camps required to provide their own Environmental Impact Statements. Public nudity banned as unsafe in the arid desert environment. A 10pm curfew is instituted city-wide after a Blue Light District party gets out of hand. Black Rock Rangers enforce the new 'No Unscheduled Events' rule. The Man emits colorful sparks but is not burned for safety reasons.

2004 - Black Rock City moves to Palm Springs after OSHA expresses grave concerns over the safety of the remote Black Rock Desert location. Black Rock Rangers become paid employees and acquire their first uniforms. The first event dress code is imposed. All Theme Camps required to be bonded and insured. The Man is built entirely from non-combustible materials; $250K is spent on special effects to simulate his being engulfed by flame.

2005 - Disney buys the rights to Burning Man(tm) and announces plans to erect 'Black Rock City World'. Chairman Michael Eisner dismisses safety concerns as belonging 'to another time, another place', and vows to make safety his #1 priority.

2006 - Howard Johnson's opens new 2800 room 'Burning Man' complex in Palm Springs, complete with mud baths and costumed employees. First package tours offered as 'The Safest Way to Enjoy Burning'. Theme for the Festival is "A Decade Without A Fatality".

2007 - Republican Party votes to hold 2008 National Convention in Black Rock City.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks to Greg X. Presley.
Copyright © 1999 Greg X. Presley. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED
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Re: Is Burning Man still dangerous?

Post by Tiahaar » Sat Apr 01, 2006 10:41 pm

Chai Guy wrote:Is Burning Man still dangerous?

This is a question that was introduced in another thread, and it's something I've been thinking about lately. Maybe it's just my perception, but it seems to me that when I first started attending the prevailing sentiment was that you were responsible for your own survival and safety. Since that time (and in fact, even before I began attending) there has been a gradual increase in the institution of rules, regulations, and bureaucracy designed to protect us from not only each other, but from ourselves.

There was a time when I took the words "YOU VOLUNTARILY ASSUME THE RISK OF SERIOUS INJURY OR DEATH BY ATTENDING." printed on the back of the ticket seriously, now I realize that it's just marketing hype.

What do you think?
Chai Guy, wake up, wake up, you were having a nightmare, its not really like that above afterall. Black Rock City is still the wild crazy fun amazing place to love and come back to. Oh yeah there are many risks (just driving there can be the most dangerous) but the great thing is that still most folks look out for each other so there can be crazy adventure done in a way you can survive and thrive.

(edited to credit http://www.cieux.com/bm/bmtoc.html with an EXCELLENT BurningMan website where the BRC OSHA file was found)
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Post by Bob » Mon Apr 03, 2006 4:22 pm

re: http://www.cieux.com/bm/bmtoc.html

FWIW, I think some of the dates are off, and the list does little to explain the true evolution of various rules or taboos, but there's always going to be confusion among people who do Burning Man for only a week on differentiating safety, environmental, Darwinian, & plain-old BLM permit compliance concerns. Hierarchically, I think the basic common rules that might affect ticketholders are:

- Human mortality due to natural causes
- Ditto, due to unnatural causes
- Anything that really pisses off the Black Rock Rangers
- The Law
- Permit compliance issues
- Whatever else might be in the Survival Guide.

Take fires, for instance. For those setting up the event, it's largely a simple matter of complying in a reasonable way with the permitting agencies in providing efficient vehicle access to places where fires & pyro displays, either intentional or accidental, might occur. And keeping debris from known fire locations as contained as possible to localize possible playa damage and aid cleanup. Nothing will stop individuals running straight into a fire, of course. And if to the casual ticketholder it all looks like seemingly petty ad hoc rules against tiki torches, that's fine with me, because it preserves the sense of irony that has always been central to the event.

I used to "inspect" theme camp structures on behalf of the theme camp crew. Mostly it was just to suggest a few extra stakes and guy lines here or there, because people would try to pin three-tier scaffold with six-inch stakes and suchlike. Only a couple times did we ever "red-tag" anything, and only because a) any reasonable person could see a real hazard and b) the campers beligerantly refused to do anything about it. You couldn't boil it down to a set of rules, though, because you can't possibly predict what kind of fresh hell people are going to bring to the playa.
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Post by Hedy » Thu Apr 06, 2006 1:30 pm

[Chai quote] Case in point: People have stolen the street signs the night of the burn every year that I've attended. It's only been in the last few years however that I've heard people complain about it as a safety issue.

I think the main problem is, that it really IS "too big" now. Back in the days of the infamous drive by shooting gallery, the population was a fraction of what it is now. There was more of a probability that those folks were more of a like mind. You had a "small group" people who pretty much agreed upon the same thing.

Now, as the population grows to the tens of thousands, the probability now increases that NOT everyone is going to be of a like mind - someone's idea of fun is someone elses' idea of mortal danger.

And they are going to COMPLAIN about it. Like Chai said above, no one said anything about the missing street signs back then, but now people actually complain about it.

Burning Man will continue to gentrify... there's no going back now.

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Post by geekster » Thu Apr 06, 2006 1:33 pm

What was the population during the shooting gallery days?

What was the population last year on Monday?
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Post by HughMungus » Thu Apr 06, 2006 1:35 pm

I haven't read the whole thread but could you post an example of the LLC restricting behavior that protects only individuals and can't possibly affect other people (or affect the LLC such that they have to save someone's dumb ass, risking the event's ability to continue due to cost of emergency services)?
It's what you make it.

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Post by geekster » Thu Apr 06, 2006 2:11 pm

Have no insurance or emergency services until Tuesday.
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Post by Bob » Thu Apr 06, 2006 2:18 pm

Hedy wrote:And they are going to COMPLAIN about it. Like Chai said above, no one said anything about the missing street signs back then, but now people actually complain about it.

Burning Man will continue to gentrify... there's no going back now.
If some people brag online about stealing or changing street signs during the event, and somebody like myself responds online that it's harmful to do so for a number of reasons (including safety), how does that represent gentrification?

It does represent depersonalization, and the adolescent attitude many Americans have with regard to city services they take for granted, not to mention city workers. But gentrification? How?

BTW back in the day, there were no street signs, but on burn night people would burn anything flammable that looked like art, whether the artist wanted it burned or not. And couches and shit. I'd admit things have become somewhat gentrified since then.
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Post by Chai Guy » Thu Apr 06, 2006 4:05 pm

I don't see it as "gentrification" I see it as the gradual and increasing migration from "radical self reliance" to "radical reliance on services provided by the project".

At one time the prevailing attitude seemed to be, "You might want to be sure you know what you're doing with that flame thrower, as the nearest hospital is two hours away" now it's "Don't steal the street signs because we might need to send an ambulance to rescue someone".

You might as well hold the event in a parking lot in Reno.

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Post by geekster » Thu Apr 06, 2006 4:48 pm

If I had the money to pull it off, I would like to do the ultimate in sarcastic "couch potato" burning man experiances. First I go to the black rock desert in June or something and get a pickup load of playa dust and haul it home where I dump in in the back yard. Then I build a "chill dome". At the event in August there is an identical chill dome linked to the one in my back yard with a satellite audio/visual link. I invite some of my friends over for a burning man experiance. We hang out in our dome at home. Just outside the door of the home dome is a screen that projects what is recorded by a camera at the playa dome. We see people walking by the dome at BRC and can interact with them. A person on the street at BRC would see a dome with an open door and inside is a curved screen almost like an IMAX screen. Someone could pop their head in and see us, we could see them and we could talk and stuff. They could even sit down on a pillow a virtually chill with us for a while.

If I want to take a walk around the city, I have a robot with a camera and a TV screen. The TV screen shows my face and I can see people as the robot tools around town. I can interact with people, they can interact with me. But there is a BIG difference ... at some point, someone in our dome picks up their cell phone and orders pizza which is then delivered and we chow down, then go inside for a hot shower and come back out dressed in our playa best before we send the robot out to check out the burn.

ADDED: Or maybe the "remote dome" won't be at home. Maybe it will be someplace else on the playa outside the trash fence and when someone looks inside the playa dome, they see us all sitting around with our gun rack, car hood for playa surfing, and other assorted stuff you can't do anymore.
Pabst Blue Ribbon - The beer that made Gerlach famous.

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Hedy
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Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 10:51 am
Location: Philadelphia

Post by Hedy » Thu Apr 06, 2006 8:17 pm

uummm.. misuse of the word "gentrification" on my part. LOL, I'm an artist, not a writer! I thought it meant to take something wild, and tone it down.

What I meant to say was, that I think with more people attending, there are more opinions on what is dangerous or not dangerous, and people will voice them. The organization seems compelled to address these concerns and institute rules and regs to keep people "safe." From a ban on tiki torches to a 5mph speed limit... whether a large rule or a small rule.

I'm just saying that it doesn't seem like there will be a return to the no-holds barred "wild" days. It's the nature of things to change and evolve.

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