The age of enlightenment was propelled by the oppression served out by organised religions. Now the mainstream isn't organised religion and hasn't been so for a while. Rationality doesn't have a reason for existing just by itself so the new age stuff and religious right is becoming pervasive.
Any thoughts?
Is the age of enlightenment dead?
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joel the ornery
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Whelp, the Rennisaunce(sp?) came about while organized religion was still a major player, not just a minor afterthot as it is today (mostly, Islamofascists excluded 
). Thusly, blaming religion for enlightenment, or the lack thereof, seems to me faulty.
). Thusly, blaming religion for enlightenment, or the lack thereof, seems to me faulty."All the great villainies of history have been perpetrated by sober men, and chiefly by teetotalers"
H.L.Mencken
H.L.Mencken
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thisisthatwhichis
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Enlightenment is only relevant to the individual. It is based upon overcoming Fear…..Of the Unknown, Of Death, Of Oppression, Of Social Morays, etc..
Because it is based on fear, most “Enlightened” individuals seek comfort with other similarly “Enlightened’ individuals…. Resulting in Religious, New Age, Atheist, etc… Cults of people clinging to a common belief system.
Those within these groups feel threatened (fear) when confronted with “Enlightenment” outside of their established comfort zone and react with anger over the conflicting view, resulting in death, destruction, and mayhem.
True Enlightenment comes from understanding this fear as one that we all face individually. Comfort can only come from accepting ones fear and opening your eyes to the incredible beauty that is now…..It’s all we really have.
Most people have difficulty with this though, and have since the “dawn of man/woman”, so odds are, this dilemma will perpetuate into eternity……..
OK, Joel, I’ll take that beer, now….. Meet you in the Bar………
Because it is based on fear, most “Enlightened” individuals seek comfort with other similarly “Enlightened’ individuals…. Resulting in Religious, New Age, Atheist, etc… Cults of people clinging to a common belief system.
Those within these groups feel threatened (fear) when confronted with “Enlightenment” outside of their established comfort zone and react with anger over the conflicting view, resulting in death, destruction, and mayhem.
True Enlightenment comes from understanding this fear as one that we all face individually. Comfort can only come from accepting ones fear and opening your eyes to the incredible beauty that is now…..It’s all we really have.
Most people have difficulty with this though, and have since the “dawn of man/woman”, so odds are, this dilemma will perpetuate into eternity……..
OK, Joel, I’ll take that beer, now….. Meet you in the Bar………
TITWI
To be on the wire is life. The rest is waiting.
It's show time, folks.....Joe Gideon
To be on the wire is life. The rest is waiting.
It's show time, folks.....Joe Gideon
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diane o'thirst
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I don't think it's dead, I think the meme morphed. The First Age of Enlightment came about from theocratic oppression; but today, the oppressor is Industry. We're still in the Industrial Age.
Take a look: basic infrastructure hasn't fundamentally changed since the 1800s. The chimney stacks pour out less smoke but they're still there. For a business to prosper, it must mechanize; we're still dumping raw and treated sewage into the ocean and rivers. It doesn't happen here, by law, but foreign countries still make use of child labour [*cough* China *cough* North Korea *cough* Liberia *cough* *cough*]. Modes of transportation are still predominantly relying on the internal combustion engine and even the hydrocell technology is an upgrade on the steam engine.
No, we don't have scenarios like we read about in "The Jungle" and children aren't getting scrunched while picking out woolcotts if they aren't fast enough to avoid the press. They at least put you to sleep before cutting your septic arm off and they sterilize the saw, but we're paying a bigger price in that our environment is LOADED down with carcinogens. If you don't have any tumours now...don't worry, you will. It's in the water, it's in the air, the soil. The FDA is considering raising the levels of acceptable arsenic in rural aquifers, which grow our vegetables, fruits, eggs and meat. People are starting to backlash against pre-packaged and mass-produced food, which in itself is a kind of Enlightenment. But in the aggregate, it probably won't matter whether you pop baby carrots or guzzle Milk Duds, you'll still grow what the doctors call a malignant neoplasm.
Take a look: basic infrastructure hasn't fundamentally changed since the 1800s. The chimney stacks pour out less smoke but they're still there. For a business to prosper, it must mechanize; we're still dumping raw and treated sewage into the ocean and rivers. It doesn't happen here, by law, but foreign countries still make use of child labour [*cough* China *cough* North Korea *cough* Liberia *cough* *cough*]. Modes of transportation are still predominantly relying on the internal combustion engine and even the hydrocell technology is an upgrade on the steam engine.
No, we don't have scenarios like we read about in "The Jungle" and children aren't getting scrunched while picking out woolcotts if they aren't fast enough to avoid the press. They at least put you to sleep before cutting your septic arm off and they sterilize the saw, but we're paying a bigger price in that our environment is LOADED down with carcinogens. If you don't have any tumours now...don't worry, you will. It's in the water, it's in the air, the soil. The FDA is considering raising the levels of acceptable arsenic in rural aquifers, which grow our vegetables, fruits, eggs and meat. People are starting to backlash against pre-packaged and mass-produced food, which in itself is a kind of Enlightenment. But in the aggregate, it probably won't matter whether you pop baby carrots or guzzle Milk Duds, you'll still grow what the doctors call a malignant neoplasm.
[url=http://tinyurl.com/245sagf][img]http://tinyurl.com/2bbr28j/.gif[/img][/url][url=http://tinyurl.com/23753ws][img]http://tinyurl.com/2auqebj/.gif[/img][/url][url=http://tinyurl.com/m4y82q][img]http://tinyurl.com/l56rdn/.gif[/img][/url]
Magikal - I was really thinking more specifically about 'The Age of Enlightenment' starting in the 18th century rather than the Renaissance from the 15th century. However, that's just a quibble. You're right that religion was a major player at the time. The Age of Enlightenment partially came into being as a reaction to the strength of religion that existed in the 18th century. And I may blame religion for many things but the Age of Enlightenment isn't one of them.
TITWI - I think we are talking about different things. Have a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_enlightenment for the thing I'm talking about.
DO'T - Interesting point. I hadn't had that take on it.
However, industry (and politics) has a cloak of rationalism. It looks to me that people are protesting it based on irrational ideas. But that may be my misunderstanding. I'll have to think about that a bit.
I guess that I feel the Age of Enlightenment was a turning point/watershed in Western culture. Rationality is a powerful tool that allows you to build solid, testable conceptual frameworks. I'd hate to lose it to return to a murky world where people are burnt at the stake as heretics or witches. I look around today and see the pervasiveness of the religious right and the new age ideas moving into the mainstream. Homeopathy as a medical cure for <pick diety of choice> sake! That's the sort of thing that makes me feel like we might be at the end of the Age of Enlightenment.
And it's almost always time for a beer. Or whiskey. Somehow philosophy and whiskey are a natural.
TITWI - I think we are talking about different things. Have a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_enlightenment for the thing I'm talking about.
DO'T - Interesting point. I hadn't had that take on it.
However, industry (and politics) has a cloak of rationalism. It looks to me that people are protesting it based on irrational ideas. But that may be my misunderstanding. I'll have to think about that a bit.
I guess that I feel the Age of Enlightenment was a turning point/watershed in Western culture. Rationality is a powerful tool that allows you to build solid, testable conceptual frameworks. I'd hate to lose it to return to a murky world where people are burnt at the stake as heretics or witches. I look around today and see the pervasiveness of the religious right and the new age ideas moving into the mainstream. Homeopathy as a medical cure for <pick diety of choice> sake! That's the sort of thing that makes me feel like we might be at the end of the Age of Enlightenment.
And it's almost always time for a beer. Or whiskey. Somehow philosophy and whiskey are a natural.
My rock is very comfortable, plenty of shade. And, you're welcome any time.
It's true there is a lot of religious influence around today in western culture but its a a few magnitudes less than it was. We don't live in a world where a pope decides if a king (or president) should rule. We don't live in a world where people take it as unshakeable belief that diseases are caused by demonic possesion or moral laxity. We don't have the Spanish Inquisition or where a General/Archibishop can say (and do, and believe) "Kill them all and let God sort them out".
Oh, and I forgot to add Intelligent Design as another signifier of 'the end'. That's a beauty. Very sneaky too.
It's true there is a lot of religious influence around today in western culture but its a a few magnitudes less than it was. We don't live in a world where a pope decides if a king (or president) should rule. We don't live in a world where people take it as unshakeable belief that diseases are caused by demonic possesion or moral laxity. We don't have the Spanish Inquisition or where a General/Archibishop can say (and do, and believe) "Kill them all and let God sort them out".
Oh, and I forgot to add Intelligent Design as another signifier of 'the end'. That's a beauty. Very sneaky too.
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thisisthatwhichis
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rob easy wrote: TITWI - I think we are talking about different things. Have a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_enlightenment for the thing I'm talking about.
DO'T - Interesting point. I hadn't had that take on it.
However, industry (and politics) has a cloak of rationalism. It looks to me that people are protesting it based on irrational ideas. But that may be my misunderstanding. I'll have to think about that a bit.
I guess that I feel the Age of Enlightenment was a turning point/watershed in Western culture. Rationality is a powerful tool that allows you to build solid, testable conceptual frameworks. I'd hate to lose it to return to a murky world where people are burnt at the stake as heretics or witches. I look around today and see the pervasiveness of the religious right and the new age ideas moving into the mainstream. Homeopathy as a medical cure for <pick diety of choice> sake! That's the sort of thing that makes me feel like we might be at the end of the Age of Enlightenment.
And it's almost always time for a beer. Or whiskey. Somehow philosophy and whiskey are a natural.
Unless we want to discuss history, then I will concede. If we want to talk about modern day philosophy, then my point stands, and I thank you for helping me make it.
BTW, I love the idea of your shady rock.... gets hot on the playa. I'll bring cold beers and whiskey!
TITWI
To be on the wire is life. The rest is waiting.
It's show time, folks.....Joe Gideon
To be on the wire is life. The rest is waiting.
It's show time, folks.....Joe Gideon
Have You seen the New York Times Best Seller List Recently?It's true there is a lot of religious influence around today in western culture but its a a few magnitudes less than it was.
NY Times Hardcover Non-Fiction List:
5. Misquoting Jesus : The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why
9. Left To Tell : Discovering God Amidst the Rwandan Holocaust
12. What Jesus Meant: A fresh look into the life of Jesus of Nazareth
Ever been to Iran? Lebanon? Utah?We don't live in a world where a pope decides if a king (or president) should rule.
We don't live in a world where people take it as unshakeable belief that diseases are caused by demonic possesion or moral laxity
Uh-huh.
We don't have the Spanish Inquisition
Right
or where a General/Archibishop can say (and do, and believe) "Kill them all and let God sort them out".
Bring it On!
Yep, that's all true.
And it can get worse.
Are we going back to a time when scientific invention and philosophical thought are not possible because of these things? I don't think we are there yet. But I can see that place from here. That's what I'm talking about. In the past the fight against those types of things has relied on rationality. Where is that now?
And it can get worse.
Are we going back to a time when scientific invention and philosophical thought are not possible because of these things? I don't think we are there yet. But I can see that place from here. That's what I'm talking about. In the past the fight against those types of things has relied on rationality. Where is that now?
I'm hoping that we eventually emerge from the current world views into a more "enlightened" philosophy as stated by TITWI. However, history can be viewed as a pendulum swing. We spent 500 years swinging toward the Empirical Paradigm. Starting with the humanist movement that started the Renaissance and continuing through the 1960's-70's we saw an increasing reliance on the supremacy of rationality such that any belief not founded on empiricism was considered to be a mental defect. See Ranger Genius' comments on the atheism thread for an example of this sot of extremist thought.
It seems fairly apparent that people in the aggregate need a spiritual or religious belief system, whether this is due to the presence of a soul or simply part of the human psyche. Starting in the 70's we saw an explosion of new age spiritualism that proliferated throughout the 80's and in the nineties there was a serious growth in movements within established religions that emphasized the non rational. I think these reactionary movements are a natural consequence of a belief system becoming so powerful and extreme that they no longer allow for individual thought to find a balance. If you look at the end of the age of Enlightenment (as traditionally described by historians) you will see a similar wave of reactionary movements. The two that I’m most familiar with would be the Mormons, based primarily on Masonic metaphysical teachings, and the Baha’i which came out of Islamic prophetic traditions.
I’m fairly hopeful that eventually people will start to abandon both extremes in order to adopt a more balanced view. In the meantime your rock sounds like the most comfortable place to be.
My $.02 for what it’s worth
Robert
It seems fairly apparent that people in the aggregate need a spiritual or religious belief system, whether this is due to the presence of a soul or simply part of the human psyche. Starting in the 70's we saw an explosion of new age spiritualism that proliferated throughout the 80's and in the nineties there was a serious growth in movements within established religions that emphasized the non rational. I think these reactionary movements are a natural consequence of a belief system becoming so powerful and extreme that they no longer allow for individual thought to find a balance. If you look at the end of the age of Enlightenment (as traditionally described by historians) you will see a similar wave of reactionary movements. The two that I’m most familiar with would be the Mormons, based primarily on Masonic metaphysical teachings, and the Baha’i which came out of Islamic prophetic traditions.
I’m fairly hopeful that eventually people will start to abandon both extremes in order to adopt a more balanced view. In the meantime your rock sounds like the most comfortable place to be.
My $.02 for what it’s worth
Robert
Happiness or misery is a choice that's always available to us.
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diane o'thirst
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I don't think they'll abandon/ban science. It's proven too useful for that. What I do see is a scenario similar to that in the book/film "The Handmaid's Tale." We're not quite up to that in so many words, but the cornerstones are being put in place.
We had an interesting lead story in today's Register-Guard op-ed section stating the three pillars of the Republican Party: Oil, Debt and God. The writer, Kevin Phillips for the Washington Post, claims that the American Theocracy has already reared its hideous head in the form of today's GOP and traces its roots back to the Sun Belt/Bible Belt states, suggesting that it's the legended Second Rise of the South.
Just so this doesn't devolve into the 24/7 Politics thread, I'll suggest that those interested in reading the article Google on "Oil, debt and God, Kevin Phillips, Washington Post."
We had an interesting lead story in today's Register-Guard op-ed section stating the three pillars of the Republican Party: Oil, Debt and God. The writer, Kevin Phillips for the Washington Post, claims that the American Theocracy has already reared its hideous head in the form of today's GOP and traces its roots back to the Sun Belt/Bible Belt states, suggesting that it's the legended Second Rise of the South.
Just so this doesn't devolve into the 24/7 Politics thread, I'll suggest that those interested in reading the article Google on "Oil, debt and God, Kevin Phillips, Washington Post."
[url=http://tinyurl.com/245sagf][img]http://tinyurl.com/2bbr28j/.gif[/img][/url][url=http://tinyurl.com/23753ws][img]http://tinyurl.com/2auqebj/.gif[/img][/url][url=http://tinyurl.com/m4y82q][img]http://tinyurl.com/l56rdn/.gif[/img][/url]
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joel the ornery
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diane o'thirst wrote:I don't think they'll abandon/ban science. It's proven too useful for that. What I do see is a scenario similar to that in the book/film "The Handmaid's Tale." We're not quite up to that in so many words, but the cornerstones are being put in place.
We had an interesting lead story in today's Register-Guard op-ed section stating the three pillars of the Republican Party: Oil, Debt and God. The writer, Kevin Phillips for the Washington Post, claims that the American Theocracy has already reared its hideous head in the form of today's GOP and traces its roots back to the Sun Belt/Bible Belt states, suggesting that it's the legended Second Rise of the South.
Just so this doesn't devolve into the 24/7 Politics thread, I'll suggest that those interested in reading the article Google on "Oil, debt and God, Kevin Phillips, Washington Post."
DoT
you forgot to mention the sky is falling.