Violent Sex

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Tue Oct 14, 2003 4:19 pm

whoa now, are you playing with me?

Certainly I did not pop out of nowhere, read this thread and then, based on six posts, construct my worldview. I have a general disdain for the cultishness of hipstersism. I don't dig it when I am told, or percieve the climate to be, 'you must do x,y, and z' in order to 'get' anything. So, having witnessed this trend of kink, I asked a question. Do you think I need kink in order to be a true burner? Please take notice of the first response to that question.

Also, I don't think monogomy and kink are opposed. Monogomy is just another kink perhaps.

PetsUntilEaten · Post by **PetsUntilEaten** » Tue Oct 14, 2003 4:28 pm

stuart - I have to say that though I find myself on the other side of the fence when it comes to most of your dialogs - I really enjoy what you bring up.

I know this sounds strange but - - - It makes me really happy that there are freaks doing all that stuff 'cause i'm afraid if someone weren't doing it then I'd have to do it myself just to make sure its happening somewhere.
So I'm with you - in that I choose not to do alot of that, but I'm happy it goes on.

I was reading a Kundera thing on Communism which I think can be applied to BM and sex in some ways: "Communism has nothing to do with Marx and his theories; it was simply that the period gave people a way to fullfill the most diverse psychological needs: the need to look non-conformist; or the need to obey; or the need to punish the wicked; or the need to be useful; or the need to have a big family around you."

stuart wrote:Well, I got a lot of that shit out of my system at a very young age. I do find that in the 'community' there seems to be a lot of very LOUD conversation about peoples sexual behavior. It seems like a lot of 'ME ME ME ME'.

On the sex front I think if your sexual world is peaceful - excellent. My experience tells me that partly you may not have gotten the hormone overdose that others contend with. I thought I was "maturing" and more patient. It was a relief. Then I totally lost my sex drive and all of the kind of talk in this thread sounded absolutely as arbitrary and ridiculious as the idea of having a gummy bear fetish. But when my sex drive came back - all hell broke loose and the things that seemed silly were suddenly wrought with meaning & passion. So much for maturing. Just consider yourself lucky, Stuart. The whole thing left me knowing how totally silly I am.

And I know this is heresy - but polyamory seems like a scarey bunch of trouble - but I'm happy to watch while others try it!

ok - now I'm off to pick up my slampiece at the airport!

TawnyGnosis · Post by **TawnyGnosis** » Tue Oct 14, 2003 4:36 pm

"I do find it interesting that these things often come in a single package."

Well actually they usually don't. I mean I did admit I like most of the things you mentioned in your description of a stereotypical burner but that's not the entire picture by any means.

There are so many parts to human beings that it would be impossible to label someone wholly a 'hipster' or a straight edge person. I'm not a single package at all so I find that statement a little problematic. For example while I do resonate with those things, I'm not wholly defined by them. If you saw me walking down the street on most days you probably wouldn't be astounded at the outfit I had on. I mean just because I like a lot of the elements in the counter culture image, I'm still a big nerd who studies classical music.

Sewing and creating, and loving in different ways are just conducive to what I believe burning man to be about. You know, that little thing called self expression. It doesn't really make sense to me to come to burning man and make no effort to expand your limits. I'm not saying that you don't, it's just that the things you listed as being the "package" all are about pushing personal limits. We could all stay here and go the gap if we wanted instead of getting dirty out there.

We arent all that different IMO and if I met a person who was really nothing more than the cookie cutter image of "burner chic" without any real substance behind it I would be annoyed too.

TawnyGnosis · Post by **TawnyGnosis** » Tue Oct 14, 2003 4:39 pm

Oh yeah and Stuart, I really appreciate the thoughtful prose in your posts. I love a good dialogue.

blyslv · Post by **blyslv** » Tue Oct 14, 2003 4:40 pm

stuart wrote: Do you think I need kink in order to be a true burner?

YES!

NO!

What is a true burner? Hah!

Maybe anyone who has gone, had fun and plans to go back? Maybe anyone who thinks that creating is more important than accumulating?
Do they pick their nose at stoplights? Strike up conversations with random strangers? Give for the joy of it? I don't know. Some burners make me uncomfortable, but it doesn't make them any less "true."

I agree, being branded sucks (unless that is your kink...). My brother gave a party this weekend and several newly deflowered virgins were there (I wasn't). Apparently the general consensus was that he had not yet come down, 'cuz all he could talk about was the burn. So now all those people think that "true burners" are one trick conversational ponies.

I'm not from the "anything that moves" school of sexuality, but I do like to "frighten the horse" every now and then. I went into a camp this year and felt the "jump my bones vibe" that made me uncomfortable.

(Setting new records for phrases set off by quotation marks, how cool is that?)

Ivy · Post by **Ivy** » Tue Oct 14, 2003 5:04 pm

Re: safewords

I'll admit it, I lke to use 'em. But only becuase I'm one of those annoying people to whom stop can mean go and yes can mean no. It's never been overly successful, anyway, though--even if there is a predetermined safeword, all actio usually stops at "no" anyway. Still working on that.

About the whole "burner" thing:
That put my lil head in a tizzy. I am still thinking a great deal about that. Feelings mixed. Must drink more and get back to y'all.

PJ · Post by PJ » Tue Oct 14, 2003 5:16 pm

stuart wrote:Monogomy is just another kink perhaps.

Probably the sickest one of all.

Speaking of "safe words," does it spoil the moment if your partner's forehead tattoo just happens to be your safe word?

alice · Post by **alice** » Tue Oct 14, 2003 5:17 pm

safe words are for retosexuals.

Lydia Love · Post by **Lydia Love** » Tue Oct 14, 2003 5:21 pm

LOUD conversation about peoples sexual behavior. It seems like a lot of 'ME ME ME ME'.

I wonder how many of those people yelling haven't had a place to talk about sex at all - much less in quiet civilized tones. I used to be the poster-child for the inhibited life. So at this point I want to scream about sex. Maybe alot. But It's certainly not meant to send the message that other tastes or desires are... uncool in some way.

My .02.

Flux · Post by **Flux** » Tue Oct 14, 2003 5:43 pm

Stuart wrote:What I don't like is the idea that being a burner is a branded lifestyle choice. I don't think I need to be a tattoed, pierced, branded, utilikilt wearin, polyamorous PBR pukin, own clothes makin, B&D lovin, jeep drivin money hater in order to 'get' Burning Man.

Woo hoo! Right on, Stuart! I'm quite a few of those things, to be sure, but I condemn the "branded lifestyle choice" wholeheartedly. There's nothing worse than a conformist bunch of non-comformists, or a bunch of people into radical self-expression as long as you're wearing an acceptable costume.

Flux · Post by **Flux** » Tue Oct 14, 2003 5:50 pm

Lydia Love wrote:I wonder how many of those people yelling haven't had a place to talk about sex at all - much less in quiet civilized tones. I used to be the poster-child for the inhibited life. So at this point I want to scream about sex. Maybe alot. But It's certainly not meant to send the message that other tastes or desires are... uncool in some way

Well said, Lydia. I may seem awfully focused on sex sometimes, even to myself, but the truth is that I was always awfully focused on it, and now I have found a little corner of the world where I don't have to pretend otherwise. Maybe it'll get out of my system eventually; I kind of hope so. Meanwhile, at least here, at least now, I can be myself, warts and sexual obsessions and all.

girlie · Post by **girlie** » Tue Oct 14, 2003 6:09 pm

stuart wrote:
>>I have a general disdain for the cultishness of hipstersism.

See, and here i thought that that kind of general disdain was the current
definition of the hipster attitude.

>> Do you think I need kink in order to be a true burner?

I would say wholeheartedly, no. The burning man community is large --
you'll find all manner of folks involved. I can't think of many attributes
that apply to them all.

Ivy · Post by **Ivy** » Tue Oct 14, 2003 7:21 pm

Lydia Love wrote:
I wonder how many of those people yelling haven't had a place to talk about sex at all - much less in quiet civilized tones. I used to be the poster-child for the inhibited life. So at this point I want to scream about sex. Maybe alot. But It's certainly not meant to send the message that other tastes or desires are... uncool in some way

Flux wrote:
Well said, Lydia. I may seem awfully focused on sex sometimes, even to myself, but the truth is that I was always awfully focused on it, and now I have found a little corner of the world where I don't have to pretend otherwise. Maybe it'll get out of my system eventually; I kind of hope so. Meanwhile, at least here, at least now, I can be myself, warts and sexual obsessions and all.

Hear, hear.

As a child (I almost typed "ass a child--Freudian slip?) I was very sexually inquisitive, but i was raised strict Catholic. I spent most of my "growing-up" years very repressed. It's only in the last few years that I've been able to speak freely about things I've always wanted to speak about. But wvwn now, still, there's times when I'll be talking with friends of mine and be thinking, "is this right? Is this okay? is this TMI?"

I know in the past I've been guilty of the "me me me, loko at me talk about sex" kind of thing (and I'm likely to be again), so I try to be sympathetic with posts of that nature. But sometimes it does seem a little too much. i think, like everything in life, there has to be balance.

Ivy · Post by **Ivy** » Tue Oct 14, 2003 7:31 pm

What I don't like is the idea that being a burner is a branded lifestyle choice.

I think this is the sentence that sits with me the most. I've noticed it crop up in several other discussion here--the whole aspect of "conformist non-conformity," the stuff we've been talking about LA.

Originally, when I was rejected by Suicide Girls (that story's around here somewhere), it was becuase I "didn't have a scene." A few people suggested to me that instead of "punk" or "goth" or what-have-you, that I use BM as my "scene." That threw me for a loop. First of all, I don't really want to be aprt of a "scene," and second, I would never feel right putting my self out there as a representative of the BM scene, i'e., a summation of what a burner is.

This, i think, is very intertwined with the whole" what are BM core vales" and "what makes a burner." There's never going to be one definition, and you know what? It's so much better that way. If, to some frat boys, the definition of BM is a big keg party, then so be it. I don't actually have a problem with that. That's not what it is for me--I'm not sure what it is for me and that's where my struggle lies.

I don't think you need a Traditional "kink" to be a burner any more than you have to partake of drugs or build a big wooden sculpture to burn. When I think about it and find common factors, the one I come up with is open-mindedness, and I can totally see how "alternative" forms of sex fall into that category, just as I can see polyamory or drug intake. But I also see creativity and tolerance. not everyone will be part of every subcategory.

PJ · Post by PJ » Tue Oct 14, 2003 8:01 pm

Ivy wrote:... i was raised strict Catholic. I spent most of my "growing-up" years very repressed...

It sounds like you could benefit from a session in my private confessional.

Absolution is guaranteed.

Penance is optional.

Ivy · Post by **Ivy** » Tue Oct 14, 2003 8:24 pm

Penance is optional.

Where's the fun in that?

PJ · Post by PJ » Wed Oct 15, 2003 7:36 am

Ivy wrote:
Penance is optional.
Where's the fun in that?

You get to beg for it until you're desparate.

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Wed Oct 15, 2003 7:58 am

Flux wrote:I condemn the "branded lifestyle choice" wholeheartedly. There's nothing worse than a conformist bunch of non-comformists, or a bunch of people into radical self-expression as long as you're wearing an acceptable costume.

this is more what I am getting at. Again, I want everyone to pursue what pleasures them.

It is not enough to think of this as a linear dichotomy, i.e., either you shop at the gap or you are into body mods and polyamory. It is about packaging and buying into an accepted definition without consciously making choices on a case by case basis. It is about avoiding in-group out-group politics alltogether by stepping off of the line that runs between those two polls.

I don't judge any of you for digging the rough stuff. If anything, I envy. I think I have too many body issues to really feel safe being unsafe. So, like the utilikilt issue, perhaps I am just bitter.

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Wed Oct 15, 2003 8:09 am

girlie wrote:stuart wrote:
>>I have a general disdain for the cultishness of hipstersism.

See, and here i thought that that kind of general disdain was the current
definition of the hipster attitude.

I disagree. I think it is more complex than that. I think a part of hipsterism is certainly disdain. That sense of shirking the cool. Geek chic and all that. But we all know the difference between a true geek and someone decked out in geek chic. That is the ironic/frustrating thing about it. The depserate search for authenticity ends with most of many of those searchers falling into lockstep. But I also see hipsterism growing out of fear and everyman worship. I heard someone say that the 2 things the hipster fears most are: 1, not being invited to the cool party 2, not looking like every other cool person there. Thankfully, this aspect often seems pretty well muted at BM. We all know where the party is, we are all invited, and peaple get their fuckin wacky on when they get there.

thanks to all who are wholeheartedly disagreeing without the use of the flame thrower. I promise, if you ever meet me, to be less abrasive than this. I am just fleshing out (heh, he said flesh) some ideas.

Alpha · Post by **Alpha** » Wed Oct 15, 2003 8:32 am

right on, stuart.. agree with you 100%

Don Muerto · Post by **Don Muerto** » Wed Oct 15, 2003 8:37 am

Stuart, I don't agree with everything you say, but I want you to know I appreciate the evident thoughtfulness that goes into your posts.

You are like the smart kid in class that blows the curve.

(oops, now its double thread drift)

blyslv · Post by **blyslv** » Wed Oct 15, 2003 8:43 am

PJ wrote: You get to beg for it until you're desparate.

Oldie but goodie alert:

What did the sadist say when the masochist asked for a whipping?

No.

I heard that when I was way to young and it wasn't until later that I figured out why it was funny.

Skyhawk · Post by **Skyhawk** » Wed Oct 15, 2003 11:36 am

The Masochism Tango
Tom Lehrer

I ache for the touch of your lips, Dear,
But much more for the touch of your whips, Dear.
You can raise welts like nobody else,
As we dance to the Masochism Tango.

Let our love be a flame, not an ember,
Say it's me that you want to dismember.
Blacken my eye, set fire to my tie,
As we dance to the Masochism Tango.

At your command, before you here I stand,
My heart is in my hand. Ecch!
It's here that I must be.
My heart entreats,
Just hear those savage beats,
And go put on your cleats
And come and trample me.
Your heart is hard as stone or mahogany,
That's why I'm in such exquisite agony.

My soul is on fire,
It's aflame with desire,
Which is why I perspire
When we tango.

You caught my nose
In your left castanet, Love,
I can feel the pain yet, Love,
Every time I hear drums.
And I envy the rose
That you held in your teeth, Love,
With the thorns underneath, Love,
Sticking into your gums.

Your eyes cast a spell that bewitches.
The last time I needed twenty stitches
To sew up the gash that you made with your lash,
As we danced to the Masochism Tango.

Bash in my brain,
And make me scream with pain,
Then kick me once again,
And say we'll never part.
I know too well I'm underneath your spell,
So, Darling, if you smell
Something burning, it's my heart.
Excuse me!

Take your cigarette from its holder,
And burn your initials in my shoulder.
Fracture my spine, and swear that you're mine,
As we dance to the Masochism Tango.

eli eli eli · Post by **eli eli eli** » Wed Oct 15, 2003 5:11 pm

sex should be primal
loose my reptillian self
all bets are off now

eli eli eli · Post by **eli eli eli** » Wed Oct 15, 2003 5:13 pm

no need to name it
i'll use whatever's at hand
so long as it works

blyslv · Post by **blyslv** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 9:15 am

sweet energy flow
toys are tools, means to an end
send me intensely

ramen · Post by **ramen** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 7:51 pm

Violent sex to me means a couple of scenarios. One is where you have a screaming, angry, bitch slap fight that turns into a savagely hot fuckfest.

Two is pain applied to amplify sexual pleasure.

Personally, I'd rather choose Plan A.

Ivy · Post by **Ivy** » Sat Oct 18, 2003 12:37 pm

I just wanted to warn everyone that I may show up at the decompression tomorrow with bite marks and bruises.

That's all. Thank you.

Flux · Post by **Flux** » Sat Oct 18, 2003 2:07 pm

Ivy wrote:I was rejected by Suicide Girls

They're damn fools for rejecting you!

Ivy also wrote:I may show up at the decompression tomorrow with bite marks and bruises

And I'm a damn fool for deciding not to go down to LA for tomorrow's party!

PJ · Post by PJ » Sat Oct 18, 2003 2:33 pm

Ivy wrote:I may show up at the decompression tomorrow with bite marks and bruises.

Can I offer you some lotion for that?