Afterburn Feedback 2k5 "our participants do not underst

Share your views on the policies, philosophies, and spirit of Burning Man.
User avatar
Ron
Posts: 620
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2004 9:21 pm

Post by Ron » Wed Apr 05, 2006 9:37 am

Burningman already does ask for final cut of video projects. Here's a different perspective.

I've no problem with the media being at the Burn. Any more than I have with folk who don't "participate," by making art on playa. Seems to me that it takes a dose of ego that even I don't posess to sit back and judge who is and isn't "participating," and what art does and does not rise to the level of actual "art." vs. "crap that I don't like." Just because you think the DT piece, the huge Mousetrap, or the naked guy pained blue with a toilet built around his face is crap and artless doesn't mean anything more than you've got an opinion. Good for you, that and $5 will buy you a cup of coffee. And the exact same thing can be said for me, just to be clear.

Some folk are making money off images they took at the burn? So what. I personally know many folk who make, or have made, money off their burn experience. Starting at the top there's plenty of staff who get a few dimes from the burn. I'm aware of many theme camp organizers and creaters of art who have their burn experience subsidized by by the org, in one case even profitably (if they are the glaring exception.) I myself came out of working the ice and coffee sales with lots of cool, monetary, tips as well as great gifts and affection. And the list of folk who have made professional networking contact while there that has lead to jobs is long, in my head. I've friends who had their major works (The Machine, the Gyrosphere, and others) covered by the press and found jobs waiting for them back in the real world based on that coverage. Lots of folk are making money off the burn, it's not something that gets my panties in a wad.

As the organizer of a major theme camp and the creator of a big piece of public art for the past few years I personally think art requires an audience. "Spectators," if you will. If no one came into my theme camp, I wouldn't build it. If no one relaxed on the grass, under the shade, there's no way in hell I'd sweat and bleed as much as I do to get it done. As an actor I've been in shows where the cast outnumbers the audience and it sucks. Big time. Without spectators we're all just masturbating, IMHO, and while there's nothing wrong with that I don't tend to get all dressed up for a night of solo love. See what I mean?

Frankly, I think the org's current media positions are a bit draconian and probably legally indefensible. While I'm not a lawyer I have made my money in media and publishing for a few years and have more than a brushing familitary with press law. To illustrate my point, imagine that for some strange reason the next Burn melts down into chaos akin to the second Woodstock. Assaults, robberies, rapes, folk fightin' in the muck around the portapotties and so on. CBS, NBC, and so on all flock to the scene, fly helicopters over, and so on. Can you imagine the org trying to restrict the broadcast of those images based on copyright and "private event," arguments? Nah, the courts are going to come down on the side of the broadcasters every time. Really all it's gonna take to remove the illusion of control we're currently enjoying, in regards to the press and images from the event being used outside the event, is a determined publisher willing to pay the legal fees to do as they will. Barring blantient copyright infringemnt (and simply using the name Burningman in a news article, opinion piece, memior, or so on isn't gonna rise to that level, IMHO) or issues with obscenity folk are going to be able to take and publish images at the burn. That's why we've got that little thing called the 1st Ammendment to our federal constitution.

So why allow cameras/media at all? Because taking pictures/images is art. It's also an important method of archiving what's happened and how folk reacted to those happenings. And, like it or not, the media plays an important role in the creation of community. Various members of BRC have learned about the event from the media and as a the carrier of cultural stories the press is one of the important inputs to our common, "real world," culture. As such we at BRC can choose to engage with them and have our oar included in that cultural rowing, or not. Either way they'll cover us, the question is just do we want to have an antagonistic or partnership based relationship.

Consider this; currently the org is able to get most folk with cameras and commerical intent to sign a contract giving the org final cut of anything published. The org can refuse to allow publication based on any reason they see fit, once this contract is signed, barring any unforseen legal conflict. That's only true because the org has chosen to engage and partner with those camera totin' folk. If they attempted to ban all "press," all they would do is drive everyone underground and lose the value those signed contracts provide. Just by way of one example.

So I'm all for having cameras and the press at the Burn. It'll help to propagate the memes (those we like, and those we don't) of the event beyond the borders of BRC. It'll add opportunities for the creation of both art and art's vital partner, audience. And it'll be closest to the legally defensible position in the larger context the org has to survive in. I think actiongrl and company have done as good or better a job as could be expected, when it comes to the question of press relations. If they are a bit more controlling than this freewheelin' guy accepts easily. ;)

Ron

User avatar
Chai Guy
Posts: 1818
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 1:37 am
Location: Los Angeles
Contact:

Post by Chai Guy » Wed Apr 05, 2006 10:09 am

Hey Ron,

Let me try to clear a few things up that I learned during my interview with Andi, which I highly suggest checking out if you are at all interested in Burning Man and the Media.

http://nospectators.com/burncasts/Burncast_1.m4a



First, all those "legitimate" news outfits like CNN, and the local news crews, they pay for their tickets to attend the event, but they give no % or site fee to the LLC. They are also not required to clear their images/stories with the LLC as that would be a violation of the first amendment.

The org can refuse to allow publication based on any reason they see fit, once this contract is signed, barring any unforseen legal conflict. That's only true because the org has chosen to engage and partner with those camera totin' folk. If they attempted to ban all "press," all they would do is drive everyone underground and lose the value those signed contracts provide. Just by way of one example.
Actually, the org enters into a contract with people filming "documentaries" the contract just specifies certain things like, you can't film people using drugs, or having sex and you can't show naked people unless you have a signed waiver from that person, etc. The LLC can only make people adhere to those standards, they don't have any editorial control over what is filmed. Andi made this VERY clear during out talk.

Also, they have a weird payment structure set up. Say you ask permission to film a straight to DVD documentary. The standard contract asks for 10% of each DVD sold. Discovery on the other hand was only asked to pay a flat "site fee" that was equal to an indpendent artist selling 1,000 videos. Now the Discovery Channel will realize hundreds of thousands of dollars in ad revenue from the Burning Man episode of "Only in America", but they'll end up paying less than the independently produced straight to DVD documentary. I don't get it? Why not ask Discovery to fork over 10% of their ad revenue then? Or, why not ask the independent producer to pay the same site fee as Discovery and make it a one time deal for them as well?


Some folk are making money off images they took at the burn? So what.
I have a problem with people making money from my and other people's art. If I paint a painting and somebody takes a photo of it without my permission and then uses that photo to create a calendar and sells a million copies is that right? I have no problem with people making money from images of art they created, or when they obtain permission from the artist who's art is featured in their work.

User avatar
geekster
Posts: 4865
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 2:53 pm
Location: Hospice For The Terminally Breathing
Contact:

Post by geekster » Wed Apr 05, 2006 10:10 am

To illustrate my point, imagine that for some strange reason the next Burn melts down into chaos akin to the second Woodstock. Assaults, robberies, rapes, folk fightin' in the muck around the portapotties and so on. CBS, NBC, and so on all flock to the scene, fly helicopters over, and so on. Can you imagine the org trying to restrict the broadcast of those images based on copyright and "private event," arguments? Nah, the courts are going to come down on the side of the broadcasters every time.
I believe there are some clearly decided precidents when it comes to things that a reasonable person would consider "news" and a riot or mass criminal activity would be considered by most reasonable people to be news.

Using your logic, I should be able to film a concert performance too.
Pabst Blue Ribbon - The beer that made Gerlach famous.

actiongrl
Posts: 643
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2003 12:22 pm

Post by actiongrl » Wed Apr 05, 2006 1:30 pm

The Discovery piece was the most poorly written, horribly edited, and atrociously produced piece of crap ever televised about the event
Oh! That's the one thing I didn't get to do when y'all were here was show you "Strange Universe" from 1999. I daresay it'd change your mind about the above statement.

Short answer on why we allow the press? Because Burning Man can (and in my humble opinion, should) affect more minds than will ever make it out to the desert. Private party, or a new way of looking at life? I prefer the latter.

User avatar
Chai Guy
Posts: 1818
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 1:37 am
Location: Los Angeles
Contact:

Post by Chai Guy » Wed Apr 05, 2006 1:50 pm

Fair enough.

Please edit to add: "That I've ever seen" to my above statement.

User avatar
geekster
Posts: 4865
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 2:53 pm
Location: Hospice For The Terminally Breathing
Contact:

Post by geekster » Wed Apr 05, 2006 2:42 pm

So, going on the assumption (because it's been what I have been hearing, not sure what the official numbers are) that about half the participants are virgins and lets say a general rounding of the past few years where there have been, lets say, 35,000 people participating the last three events. That means that half of the 35,000 that participated in 03 won't be coming back, and the same with 04 and 05. So for 06, at least 50,000 people that have actually been to the event in that past 3 years won't be there and 17,500 will be people that have attended the event at some past point in their life.

Sounds to me like the Burning Man event itself is a better way to affect these minds than a documentary. I am not sure how many unique individuals have been through the gates but it must be something between a whole bunch and a shipload. I don't know the actual viewing numbers for the documentary but I would guess that more have actually been to the event before than watched it. I also have to wonder how many that watched it have participated in the past, so in effect it is "preaching to the chior". Burners watching burners on the TV. Just sounds weird to me.

Because Burning Man can (and in my humble opinion, should) affect more minds than will ever make it out to the desert.
Yeah, that comes through loud and clear ... but WHY is it important to affect minds by showing the event? There are a lot of ways to get the principles of Burning Man across to a community than to have them watch people in furry coats burn a man.

To attempt to draw a parallel, would showing a worship service get across the values of a religion? Does showing a ritual get across the aims of a community? Not in my opinion, one has to actually participate to get that. What showing does, in my opinion, is say "see, we aren't scary, don't be afraid of us, please don't oppose our permit process or think bad things about a regional group that might be in your area" and maybe a certain amount of that kind of PR is required.

I actually can't put the finger on the source of my discomfort but it feels like the org is almost being defensive or trying to explain themselves when I don't think they need to. Either that or the money is nice to have. It just looks like it is one or the other or both the way it comes across to me. There are enough people out there in the world that have been to the event for many people to have heard about it if they are paying attention to popular culture. If they are curious, let them go to the event or a regional burn and see for themselves. I have seen the event mentioned on ER, Malcom in the Middle, and American Dad. It has been mentioned on The Simpsons, Jeopardy!, and probably lots of other places too. Information about the event is much more accessable than it was, say, 5 years ago.

Stuff like what people did in Mississippi goes a lot further to having people "get it" and affect their minds than any documentary. It's more about the doing than the posing and the showing.
Pabst Blue Ribbon - The beer that made Gerlach famous.

User avatar
Chai Guy
Posts: 1818
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 1:37 am
Location: Los Angeles
Contact:

Post by Chai Guy » Wed Apr 05, 2006 3:07 pm

Just remember Geekster, that any negative feelings or opinions regarding Media at the event are simply born from your own personal ignorance. Perhaps we could interest you in enlightenment through a volunteer position working for our For-Profit Limited Liability Company?

User avatar
geekster
Posts: 4865
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 2:53 pm
Location: Hospice For The Terminally Breathing
Contact:

Post by geekster » Wed Apr 05, 2006 7:57 pm

I am not against documentaries, just would rather see fifty of them by no-name participants than one by a major production outfit. I am having trouble getting succinct in describing exactly what my discomfort is so until I can, I am gonna bail from this thread.

I think the event is widely known enough so that people know where to find it if they want to go. I don't think the event needs to explain itself to people. And even if you watch it, you still aren't going to have any idea of what it's like until you actually go. Enough people seem to be upset by their contribution to the event being used to line the pockets of a major corporation, even if BMORG does get 10% (of what, subscriber fees, advertizing revenue ... what? I don't really want an answer to that, just showing some of the thoughts that eat their way through this skull) that one has to wonder what the real cost is for the org.

It doesn't really matter in the end because I suppose I have no "need to know". The event is either worth it to me or not. At this point in time, it is still worth it so I guess the rest of the stuff can be delt with by those who are paid to deal with them.
Pabst Blue Ribbon - The beer that made Gerlach famous.

User avatar
Ron
Posts: 620
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2004 9:21 pm

Post by Ron » Thu Apr 06, 2006 2:26 pm

Chai Guy wrote:....


First, all those "legitimate" news outfits like CNN, and the local news crews, they pay for their tickets to attend the event, but they give no % or site fee to the LLC. They are also not required to clear their images/stories with the LLC as that would be a violation of the first amendment.
Hey, man, good to hear from you. Of course they aren't asked to sign the contracts. They wouldn't do so and they have the legal resources to know that they wouldn't have to. That's kind of my point. :)

Chai Guy wrote:.......

Actually, the org enters into a contract with people filming "documentaries" the contract just specifies certain things like, you can't film people using drugs, or having sex and you can't show naked people unless you have a signed waiver from that person, etc.
If so that's a different contract than the one that I was asked to sign, as a documentary producer, back in 2003. That one gave them final cut with no listed reasoning. I asked to add a side bar with the kind of language you suggest above and was told in no uncertain terms that couldn't be done. Furthermore, the 'using drugs,' thing is an interesting line.

I'd been shooting for over six weeks, at that point, following the pre-playa work for a major art project. It was a collective of experienced burners who were playing with some major construction tools, always with a beer in one hand or near by. So, while standing in the media tent looking at the contract and talking with the "person of authority," I asked if my pre-existing footage would be a problem for the org. "People drinking and using power tools?" he asked, "Yeah, we couldn't have that going out there. That would be reason to recut."

Naturally enough I didn't sign the contract. :)

Now things may very well have changed, and that's all to the good. But the contract I was given to sign, and the conversation I had with the person I was told could make decisions, was not that way back in 2003.

Chai Guy wrote:....
I don't get it? Why not ask Discovery to fork over 10% of their ad revenue then?
'Cause Discovery wouldn't do it. The world isn't fair, Chai Guy, and when contracts, dollars, and organizations come into play different actors will be treated differently while doing the same acting. Push Discovery hard enough and they'll take advantage of their Best Alternative to A Negotiated Settlement (as it was called back in my negotiations class) and come film gorilla. Or so it seems to me. But I'll own my ignorance, being outside of the actual process and just guessing based on what I know of the law, industry, and my own experiences with the org.
Chai Guy wrote:....
I have a problem with people making money from my and other people's art.
But only a selective problem, seems to me. Unless you're just as bothered (or more) by the actual money currenty being made by the org off your art as you are by the theortical money being made by your calandar publisher. Ask yourself this, if everyone stopped brining art to the playa, would anyone buy tickets to go?

BMORG is currently making money off your art. Mine too. Everyone's on playa. Furthermore, they are not the only ones. I'm OK with that, but I can be kind of weird, it's true. :)

Ron

User avatar
Chai Guy
Posts: 1818
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 1:37 am
Location: Los Angeles
Contact:

Post by Chai Guy » Thu Apr 06, 2006 6:24 pm

They wouldn't do so and they have the legal resources to know that they wouldn't have to. That's kind of my point. :)
Understood, my argument has always been that the Discovery Channel piece wasn't protected under the first amendment as it pertains to Journalism. It's more akin to shooting an episode of "Seinfeld" at Yankee Stadium.
The world isn't fair, Chai Guy,
Well that just sucks!
But only a selective problem, seems to me. Unless you're just as bothered (or more) by the actual money currenty being made by the org off your art as you are by the theortical money being made by your calandar publisher. Ask yourself this, if everyone stopped brining art to the playa, would anyone buy tickets to go?
I liken Bmorg to an art gallery that hosts aritst's work for a fee. You pay your fee (ticket) and you get some space to hang some art. They rent the space, keep the toilets clean and deal with local government and all the regulations and permits that go along with such a thing. The organization (Burning Man) ends up making some money, as do the guys who clean the toilets etc. Maybe even some artists are able to sell their work or get jobs because of the showing after it's all over. I've got no problem with any of that. What I do have a problem with is when the Organization allows a film crew in to video tape art that they don't own so they can sell more tickets. I especially have a problem when that footage ends up being used to sell products, and when the supposedly commercial free event begins to appear to have sponsorship in the form of corporate advertising.

User avatar
ibdave
Posts: 3520
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2003 4:09 pm
Burning Since: 1998

Post by ibdave » Tue Apr 18, 2006 5:38 pm

Anybody know when the 2005 afterburn report will be released??


I'll hang up now and listen for your reply.
I was Born OK the 1st Time....

Don't bring defaultia to Burning Man, take Burning Man to defaultia...... graidawg

User avatar
ibdave
Posts: 3520
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2003 4:09 pm
Burning Since: 1998

Post by ibdave » Sun Apr 30, 2006 9:27 pm

Bump, Still looking for the 2005 after burn report
I was Born OK the 1st Time....

Don't bring defaultia to Burning Man, take Burning Man to defaultia...... graidawg

User avatar
Rockdad
Posts: 3022
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 9:38 am
Location: Central Valley, Ca
Contact:

Post by Rockdad » Sun Apr 30, 2006 9:39 pm

2nd the motion looked today for it? maybe by Aug?
Eplaya Bar Camp 2006 "What will it be"

[url=http://eplayabar.blogspot.com/]The Eplaya Bar Camp Blog[/url]

User avatar
Rockdad
Posts: 3022
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 9:38 am
Location: Central Valley, Ca
Contact:

Post by Rockdad » Wed May 03, 2006 6:10 pm

Eplaya Bar Camp 2006 "What will it be"

[url=http://eplayabar.blogspot.com/]The Eplaya Bar Camp Blog[/url]

Post Reply

Return to “Philosophical Center”