Why are you an atheist?

Gingher · Post by **Gingher** » Thu May 04, 2006 3:56 pm

I was dead once for like 30 seconds in the hospital and I didn't see heaven or hell, I was looking down on the scene while my Mom screamed and a doctor came in and shoved a needle in my body and then I came "back". The one thing I knew was that I was still me when I was dead, didn't care about the body lying there--but I was still me.

So--my experience says that I don't cease to exist when I die. I'll let you know on the heaven and hell thing....

Space Cowgirl

Monkeypoo · Post by **Monkeypoo** » Thu May 04, 2006 4:18 pm

Gingher wrote:I was dead once for like 30 seconds in the hospital and I didn't see heaven or hell, I was looking down on the scene while my Mom screamed and a doctor came in and shoved a needle in my body and then I came "back". The one thing I knew was that I was still me when I was dead, didn't care about the body lying there--but I was still me.

I did that once. I was 14, stupidly OD'd on valiums. On the way to the hospital, I was sitting on top of the ambulance. The paramedics were making me drink something. I saw myself throw up. I sat on top of that ambulance for a longtime, looking down, smiling at my body and I could feel the breeze hitting my face and going through my hair. I felt freedom...and no worries. I was happy. I woke up in a hospital bed vomiting my guts up.

Oh well. It was fun while it lasted. Not the vomiting, that sucked. But the ride on top of the ambulance was fun. I felt happy.

Ugly Dougly · Post by **Ugly Dougly** » Fri May 05, 2006 9:48 am

Jesus made me smoke crack.

Monkeypoo · Post by **Monkeypoo** » Fri May 05, 2006 9:58 am

WWJDOTP ?? What Would Jesus Do On The Playa?

* Since the lakebed is dry and He wouldn't be able to walk on water, he would hover over the playa.
* Belly dancing and fire spinning would definitely be on His agenda.
* He would turn the coffee into FREE WINE at Center Camp.
* He would go get painted green and walk nakedly on the playa.
* He would go to Thunderdome and KICK SATAN's ASS!!!!
* At Critical Tits, he'd cross-dress so he could pARTicipate!! Jesus can be cool sometimes, and DOES have a sense of humor.
* On Burn Night, he'd be dosing everyone just for shits and grins!! (gotta love Jesus - He's such a kidder...)
* His art installation would involve lost of FISH. After a few days in the hot sun, THAT's gonna smell real nice.

Ranger Genius · Post by **Ranger Genius** » Fri May 05, 2006 5:46 pm

Gingher wrote:I was dead once for like 30 seconds in the hospital and I didn't see heaven or hell, I was looking down on the scene while my Mom screamed and a doctor came in and shoved a needle in my body and then I came "back". The one thing I knew was that I was still me when I was dead, didn't care about the body lying there--but I was still me.

So--my experience says that I don't cease to exist when I die. I'll let you know on the heaven and hell thing....

Space Cowgirl

Personal experience is the least reliable source of information on this sort of stuff. We're just so easily fooled.

Incidentally, if you're like 18% of people, I can make you have the same or a similar OBE by sticking you in a big-ass centrifuge. Happens to test pilots in training all the time.

Monkeypoo · Post by **Monkeypoo** » Fri May 05, 2006 5:52 pm

Ranger Genius wrote: I can make you have the same or a similar OBE by sticking you in a big-ass centrifuge. Happens to test pilots in training all the time.

**waving arms frantically in the air, flagging Ranger down**

I WANNA TRY!!! I WANNA TRY!!! OOOOO!!! OOOO!!! PICK ME!!! PICK ME!!!

Gingher · Post by **Gingher** » Sun May 07, 2006 11:59 am

OK but what would be the most reliable source of information then??? What else do you have besides personal experience? I think I'll just go meditate and ask!

Where do I sign up for that centrifuge anyhow??

HughMungus · Post by **HughMungus** » Tue May 09, 2006 9:20 am

Monkeypoo wrote:Why am I an athiest, you ask?

I no longer want to celebrate a so-called holiday where we put upon a pedestal a loving woman (although, MAYBE she may have been and I so honor that) BUT how many virgins do YOU fucking know that are able to give birth to such a super human person that he is ABOVE all of us all??? How may VIRGINS can fuck and bring forward a child that is a "Better Than Burnier Thou" APOSTLE????????? Maybe he DID have a good message, but no one wants to be put upon a cross as such a sacrificial lamb,.....it's all bullshit.... a fabrication of a fairy story tale.....

DO NOT EVEN GET ME STARTED.....

Virgins DO NOT give birth to "righteous above us all" beings.

I am sooooooooooooooooooo (maybe) going to hell for this, but WHATEVER!! I know where *I'm* going.....WHATEVER.....

(I'm radically self-expressing....cuz I can)

The bible is a product of what MAN (YES ------ MAN!!!!! Whatever!!!!!) in all his superstitions has brought to us. Through religious zealeats (sp??) who wanted to conform us into what THEY wanted us to be, and to what THEY want us to believe in....

I wish I could believe like the so-called faithful, but I cannot.

I will not believe in what BOOKS tell me to believe in.

Or what this government asks to tells me to believe in.

And BOTH are just as CORRUPT.

They are ALL a bunch of FRAUDS.

**I am soooooooooooooo going to hell, BUT GUESS WHAT, PEOPLE!!!!!
THERE IS NO HELL ---- THERE IS NO FUCKING HELL*******

The hell is what YOU make of THIS world....and the lessons you learn in THIS lifetime..... The aEarth is a school.... Get used to it.. :)

Oh yeah...

Nighty night....

Peace & love...

XOXOXOXOX

You don't dis-believe in god. You dis-believe in a very narrow interpretation of god.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Tue May 09, 2006 12:00 pm

cause god told me to be.

happyheathen · Post by **happyheathen** » Wed May 10, 2006 3:23 pm

...in my exceedingly liberal church (we believed Jesus was the son of God in the sense that we are all God's children). I had too many questions to which the answer was "Good question!" It seemed to me that the church doctrine was just that, doctrine, which no one had adequately examined and analyzed from a rational point of view. I had always believed in God but also that he gave us intelligence and the ability to reason, so he would not expect us not to use those abilities. I dropped out of the study program after they began using the "f" word a little too liberally - "f" word being "faith" in this case, as opposed to words like "reason," "know," "understand," etc.

When I struck out on my own to try to learn more, I found books such as "The Jesus Mysteries" and "The Incredible Shrinking Son of Man" that convinced me that 1) there is strong evidence that Jesus never existed as a human or 2) if he did, we have no way of knowing which sayings are actually his. I could go on much longer about this if anyone is interested in the history of the bible and the historicity of Jesus, but I personally found the evidence quite compelling. Then, while watching a film called "The God Who Wasn't There" (frankly a mediocre piece of scholarship but at least a start in raising people's consciousness of this issue), one of the interviewees, Richard Carrier said something that struck me: (to paraphrase Why would a God who we visualize as a vast and superior Intelligence, need to give humans a huge, inefficient and unwieldy brain to house OUR intelligence if that intelligence did not rely on the physical brain? WOW! WOW! WOW! That just lifted the top off my head.

I looked for Richard Carrier online and found he had written a book called "Sense & Goodness without God" which I ordered and read. And the evidence he presented that God does not exist convinced me. I also read a number of other essays and books on the subject. I realized that we take for granted with our belief in God something that has no evidence in actual life and in fact, has a great deal of evidence against it. Either God does not exist or he/she is a really twisted and perverted being, about whose motives we can know nothing.

Frankly I will admit that I was really depressed as I read Carrier's book. When I started on my journey, I wanted to go in the opposite direction, to deepen my connection with God. But now I am basically a complete materialist, and now that I have gotten used to the idea, I am okay with it. I think that atheism is missing something, an element of spirituality that humans need despite the lack of any evidence for God or a separate human soul that exists independent of the body....I think we need to connect with other people and with our own inner being in a spiritual way, but outside of religion we have few ways of expressing or meeting this need...

In any case, anyone who is interested in a fairly well-written summary of the reasons for not being a Christian can view Richard Carrier's essay on infidels.org at http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ ... stian.html

Ranger Genius · Post by **Ranger Genius** » Wed May 10, 2006 4:33 pm

You clearly think this question was posed by an intelligent, rational person, which it was not. According to the original poster, lack of evidence for something is not a good enough reason to disbelieve it. He has already stated that he does not disbelieve the easter bunny or the tooth fairy for exactly this reason.

And when you back him into a corner logically, he just redefines god as natural laws acting on one another, or the Big Bang, or a Pencil Sharpener, and says you're narrow-minded for insisting on continuing to discuss a god who is all-powerful and/or all-knowing. He refuses, however, to give us an operational definition of god which would allow us to have a meaningful discussion of his existence.

Kinetic IV · Post by **Kinetic IV** » Wed May 10, 2006 5:15 pm

happyheathen · Post by **happyheathen** » Wed May 10, 2006 5:16 pm

pink unicorn.

I haven't read all 18 pages of this discussion...just happened by...not worth arguing if we can't accept that we can only know what we can know via our senses. To say anything else is meaningless since you can't prove there's not a teapot orbiting the Milky Way either.

My conception of God was actually pretty liberal, too. I thought of God as a sort of Divine Creative Force or First Cause. However, it turns out that no such thing is necessary...or even probable. Everything that exists is better explained by natural selection and evolution.

HughMungus · Post by **HughMungus** » Wed May 10, 2006 5:20 pm

Ranger Genius wrote:You clearly think this question was posed by an intelligent, rational person, which it was not. According to the original poster, lack of evidence for something is not a good enough reason to disbelieve it. He has already stated that he does not disbelieve the easter bunny or the tooth fairy for exactly this reason.

And when you back him into a corner logically, he just redefines god as natural laws acting on one another, or the Big Bang, or a Pencil Sharpener, and says you're narrow-minded for insisting on continuing to discuss a god who is all-powerful and/or all-knowing. He refuses, however, to give us an operational definition of god which would allow us to have a meaningful discussion of his existence.

:roll:

HughMungus · Post by **HughMungus** » Wed May 10, 2006 5:25 pm

happyheathen wrote:Frankly I will admit that I was really depressed as I read Carrier's book. When I started on my journey, I wanted to go in the opposite direction, to deepen my connection with God. But now I am basically a complete materialist, and now that I have gotten used to the idea, I am okay with it. I think that atheism is missing something, an element of spirituality that humans need despite the lack of any evidence for God or a separate human soul that exists independent of the body....I think we need to connect with other people and with our own inner being in a spiritual way, but outside of religion we have few ways of expressing or meeting this need...

Humanism. I've never been happier.

helitack · Post by **helitack** » Wed May 10, 2006 5:43 pm

Ranger Genius wrote:You clearly think this question was posed by an intelligent, rational person, which it was not. According to the original poster, lack of evidence for something is not a good enough reason to disbelieve it. He has already stated that he does not disbelieve the easter bunny or the tooth fairy for exactly this reason.

And when you back him into a corner logically, he just redefines god as natural laws acting on one another, or the Big Bang, or a Pencil Sharpener, and says you're narrow-minded for insisting on continuing to discuss a god who is all-powerful and/or all-knowing. He refuses, however, to give us an operational definition of god which would allow us to have a meaningful discussion of his existence.

Drop into Satan's Gut at 50,000 cfs with me on the sticks and you'll quickly understand who God is.

happyheathen · Post by **happyheathen** » Wed May 10, 2006 11:03 pm

Hugh, I think you misunderstand, whether deliberately or not. Humanism isn't depressing per se. In fact it's a very positive philosophy.

But it's sad to lose your lifelong imaginary friend and comforter. That's the image of God most people have...a friend and parent figure who will always be there for you, through thick and thin; someone to turn to for help and support in your hour of need. When you become an atheist you realize you are the grown up and you are in charge of your own life. No safety net.

That's why most people prefer the fantasy.

Kinetic IV · Post by **Kinetic IV** » Thu May 11, 2006 7:44 am

"Organized religion is a sham and a crutch for weak-minded people who need strength in numbers."
- Jesse Ventura

EvilDustBooger · Post by **EvilDustBooger** » Thu May 11, 2006 12:12 pm

"Eat my pancakes, and live a healthier, more active eternal life..."

HughMungus · Post by **HughMungus** » Tue May 16, 2006 11:47 am

happyheathen wrote:Hugh, I think you misunderstand, whether deliberately or not. Humanism isn't depressing per se. In fact it's a very positive philosophy.

But it's sad to lose your lifelong imaginary friend and comforter. That's the image of God most people have...a friend and parent figure who will always be there for you, through thick and thin; someone to turn to for help and support in your hour of need. When you become an atheist you realize you are the grown up and you are in charge of your own life. No safety net.

That's why most people prefer the fantasy.

I was saying that humanism is the answer and that I haven't been happier since focusing my thought and energy towards the people around me instead of the past, future, or an afterlife.

My question about atheism is about how someone can be an atheist if they can't disprove the existence of God. I'm not saying there is or isn't a god. What I'm really wondering is why they take an extreme position instead of simply not caring.

Gingher · Post by **Gingher** » Tue May 16, 2006 1:40 pm

Wait, so are humanists not athiests? I thought they were but that athiests were not necessarily humanists. Are they agnostics? Is every one just their own thing?
I'm a self-realizationist myself, and this is all quite fascinating.

HughMungus · Post by **HughMungus** » Tue May 16, 2006 2:20 pm

Gingher wrote:Wait, so are humanists not athiests? I thought they were but that athiests were not necessarily humanists. Are they agnostics? Is every one just their own thing?
I'm a self-realizationist myself, and this is all quite fascinating.

Humanism is humanism. Someone can be a humanist and something else (Christian Humanist, Atheist Humanist, etc.).

Gingher · Post by **Gingher** » Tue May 16, 2006 2:28 pm

What would be it's definition then? Thanks for the education!

the fire elf · Post by **the fire elf** » Tue May 16, 2006 3:41 pm

a dark monk would use forces in nature aligned with his constitutional nature...such a path would lead one through the dim corridors of one's soul...'darkness' nothing more than the ability to shield the light within

happyheathen · Post by **happyheathen** » Tue May 16, 2006 5:06 pm

The reasons atheists take an "extreme position," by which I assume you mean actively militate against religion, are varied. One would be that religionists actively and often trample on the rights of atheists. A second would be that if you believe, as I do, that humans have one life only - no reincarnation, no happy afterlife with Jesus - then it is a damned shame for people to waste that life as Christianity and other religions encourage people to do. It is truly an opiate that keeps people from doing anything constructive to improve the world in the here and now. In fact, many activist Christians seem to be trying to bring about the Apocolypse.

Of course there is no way to definitively disprove god's existence; however, ALL the evidence points against it and NONE that I know of supports it. I posted a link to an essay above and will post it again. If you are really interested in reading a discussion of arguments against the (generally-accepted definition of )god's existence, then follow the link.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ ... stian.html

the fire elf · Post by **the fire elf** » Wed May 17, 2006 10:43 am

happyheathen wrote:ALL the evidence points against it and NONE that I know of supports it.

maybe one of these lives you will find yourself experiencing some of the deeper aspects of reality which disdain themselves to be trotted out as evidence

i may have a different take on the whole situation, but i wish you well in whatever paradigms you wish to wear

as far as those 'fundamental' faiths, hell, even the pyramids erode...fruits of man are temporary

happyheathen · Post by **happyheathen** » Sat May 20, 2006 10:55 pm

Fire elf,
[quote]maybe one of these lives [/quote]

Unfortunately, I have come to the conclusion that there is no survival of the consciousness after death. Science demonstrates that the consciousness depends on the brain. Damage the brain and the "person" is gone. Destroy parts of the brain and memories are destroyed. Destroy or damage other parts and the personality is altered. What are you if not your personality, memories, and so on? Why would God give us such a ridiculous organ as a brain if it were possible for intelligence such as His to exist without a brain?

[quote]you will find yourself experiencing some of the deeper aspects of reality which disdain themselves to be trotted out as evidence[/quote]

What would those be, I wonder? Remember, for 46 years I thought I was a liberal Christian, or at least a Deist or pantheist. It was when I began to study theology that I became an atheist. I would love to be convinced otherwise. However, subjective experiences of euphoria are not evidence of a Divine Intelligence or Oversoul or anything like it as far as I can see. Maybe at best a Collective Consciousness of All Life.

the fire elf · Post by **the fire elf** » Tue May 23, 2006 12:59 pm

Science demonstrates that the consciousness depends on the brain. Damage the brain and the "person" is gone.

"it is impossible to specify a clearly circumscribed (or delimited) area for any particular science"

demon-stration and interpretation are limited by the understanding of those involved

i am satisfied that i have demonstrated other-wise

the fire elf · Post by **the fire elf** » Tue May 23, 2006 1:09 pm

happyheathen wrote:Why would God give us such a ridiculous organ as a brain

not all brains are ridiculous...

some are kind, some malevolent, some are generous, some exacting...

why not make a whole bunch and then pick the one's God preferred?

the rest would be 100% biodegradable...very earth-conscious, this God you speak of...

HughMungus · Post by **HughMungus** » Thu May 25, 2006 11:47 pm

happyheathen wrote:Fire elf,
maybe one of these lives
Unfortunately, I have come to the conclusion that there is no survival of the consciousness after death. Science demonstrates that the consciousness depends on the brain. Damage the brain and the "person" is gone. Destroy parts of the brain and memories are destroyed. Destroy or damage other parts and the personality is altered. What are you if not your personality, memories, and so on? Why would God give us such a ridiculous organ as a brain if it were possible for intelligence such as His to exist without a brain?

you will find yourself experiencing some of the deeper aspects of reality which disdain themselves to be trotted out as evidence

What would those be, I wonder? Remember, for 46 years I thought I was a liberal Christian, or at least a Deist or pantheist. It was when I began to study theology that I became an atheist. I would love to be convinced otherwise. However, subjective experiences of euphoria are not evidence of a Divine Intelligence or Oversoul or anything like it as far as I can see. Maybe at best a Collective Consciousness of All Life.

Why not be agnostic?

Why are you an atheist?

I became an atheist after starting to study for the ministry

So then there's no reason not to believe God is an invisible

Re: I became an atheist after starting to study for the mini

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