So what's the deal on this eplaya summit?

DE FACTO · Post by **DE FACTO** » Wed Oct 22, 2003 8:00 pm

Thank you for the praise about SLOburn. I have been working on that site for about a year. The purpose of the site is to unite and share information with other San Luis Obispo/ California Central Coast burners. I do use SLOburn for personal Burning Man galleries as well, but in the future I will use http://www.burncity.org for that purpose.

Just to cut the confusion Spanky/mike

Old fart=not you.

herself · Post by **herself** » Wed Oct 22, 2003 8:31 pm

I think that being paid for your work implies that you will be held accountable for it, and if the people who pay you don't like your work, you will hear about it. My feeling is that you cannot hold volunteers accountable for much of anything because it is their option not to show up at any time. Being on the payroll, you don't have that option, you have to show up and do your work, because otherwise, unless you're protected by nepotism or blackmail, you will be fired.

In some ways I do consider myself to be Spanky's boss, indirectly, because I have purchased numerous tickets to the annual event and other burning man sponsored activities over the the past three years.

I'm not clear why you thought my question was hostile. I do understand Badger's point, that burning man pay is low and infrequent. Hell I listened to Mayfield bitch all summer about it. But, if you're paid, the expectations for your performance are much, much higher, and that's how it should be, as far as I'm concerned.

harriet

Zulegoona · Post by **Zulegoona** » Wed Oct 22, 2003 9:42 pm

I think that being paid for your work implies that you will be held accountable for it, and if the people who pay you don't like your work, you will hear about it. My feeling is that you cannot hold volunteers accountable for much of anything because it is their option not to show up at any time. Being on the payroll, you don't have that option, you have to show up and do your work, because otherwise, unless you're protected by nepotism or blackmail, you will be fired.

Of course you can hold volunteers responsible for the work they have agreed to do It is a social contract. That they are not compensated financially does not mean they do not find reward for there efforts. Every one always has the option to walk away paid or not. To consider your self in any way some ones boss that you are not responsible for is to say it is a good thing to yell and berate the poor kid at the burger stand for getting your order wrong. It aint your job!!! You have the options of complaining to the kids manager or just not going back again or get in another line.

You've already started your own Ice-cream stand else were so you certainly have options and hey I go there too. But I in no way feel I have the right to tell you how to run it.

DE FACTO · Post by **DE FACTO** » Wed Oct 22, 2003 10:03 pm

So lets say these people weather they are paid workers or not, work for you.

It has been my experience that when you have anyone working for you , you get the best results when you praise a worker when they do good work.

Blast them and you get bad results. Usually when you blast a worker it is non-productive. As non-productive as not comming up with a solution or suggestion.

Zulegoona · Post by **Zulegoona** » Wed Oct 22, 2003 10:10 pm

Exactly this demanding critical bull shit is non productive and adds to the negativity in the world.

DE FACTO · Post by **DE FACTO** » Wed Oct 22, 2003 10:40 pm

Zulegoona wrote:Exactly this demanding critical bull shit is non productive and adds to the negativity in the world.

There is no demanding anything comming from me.

I myself am just doing the best that I can to understand why people are bashing the admins. Obviously there is a missunderstanding.
I'm willing to get through it.

let me know what you are thinking.

I just think they are doing a great job. nothing less nothing more.

or PM me if this does'nt work out for you.

I'll listen/read.

ok?

don't be upset.

Last Real Burner · Post by **Last Real Burner** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 12:31 am

spanky wrote:(This thread has gone WAY off topic at this point

You are a Nubew around these parts, aren't you. Thread Drift comes with the territory. It's the glue that keeps this place sliding around.

Welcome Spanky

orotundly,
mr smith

DE FACTO · Post by **DE FACTO** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 3:24 am

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aforceforgood · Post by **aforceforgood** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 4:58 am

[quote="spanky"]TO: aforceforgood
I didn't get it out yesterday but it went out this morning. Sorry for the delay.

No problem, I was just trying to head off any bugs as quickly as possible.

DE FACTO · Post by **DE FACTO** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 5:36 am

Last Real Burner wrote: You are a Nubew around these parts, aren't you. Thread Drift comes with the territory. It's the glue that keeps this place sliding around.

http://shtick.org/Swinger/swinger69.htm

To smile if this is confusing, do a find on the page for Nubew

Then scroll back up to the top and click

"click here if you wish to read the translated version of the Pig Latin & Ubbie Dubbie conversation"

Kinetic II · Post by **Kinetic II** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 8:23 am

The negativity continues.....day after day after freakin day.

Here's a little diversion compliments of the dioxine list. Which character are you? http://tinyurl.com/s20m

michael · Post by **michael** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 8:37 am

Zulegoona wrote:

>Every one always has the option to walk away paid or not.

This is definitely true.

>To consider your self in any way some ones boss that you are not responsible for is to say it <br>>is a good thing to yell and berate the poor kid at the burger stand for getting your order wrong.<br>>It aint your job!!!

Goes without saying, but needs to be said.

>You've already started your own Ice-cream stand else were so you certainly have options and hey I <br>>go there too. But I in no way feel I have the right to tell you how to run it.

Very Funny

herself · Post by **herself** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 9:03 am

What happened to the post I put up here last night, the first question of which was asking Zul. how old s/he is, and saying that I am 43? I am not going to rewrite it and did not save a copy. Perhaps it's tucked here somewhere and I'm just not seeing it.

Zul, you speak of a social contract (or perhaps you used the word obligation). Don't know if you know much about contract law, maybe you do, I wish Mark Hinkley were here to clarify, but to my knowledge, and I got only a B in contract law, there is no binding obligation between a volunteer and the organization for which s/he volunteers. Nothing at all. Sure, there's honor. But absolutely nothing enforceable, because there is no consideration on the part of the volunteer. The volunteer puts nothing (that the law recognizes as) valuable at risk.

I can hear it now "why is she getting a legal about this, we're just trying to be NICE" and so be it, I don't really give a shit. Especially about being nice.

I do apprecite you guys for speaking up. You seem to think I am showing disrespect toward the eplaya admins. I completely disagree. I'm just asking questions. I do not feel anything I've written on this topic has been disrespectful.

harriet

Kinetic II · Post by **Kinetic II** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 9:18 am

You might not give a shit about being nice but others do. When I first looked at your posts I was thinking damn, she's being aggressive with the questions. It reminded me of a friend of mine who's a prosecuting attorney and when he's online after work he can come across with the same attitude. I'm constantly telling him to chill out or gifting him large bottles of Midori or Tee-kill-ya as a reminder.

I see where your going, I like the questions that your asking. But they are coming across just a bit harsh. And I can't believe you didn't archive the posts! That shocks me more than anything.

DE FACTO · Post by **DE FACTO** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 9:31 am

any possibility we can forget all of this and get back to what was the original point?

is'nt it time to move on?

michael · Post by **michael** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 9:51 am

The nature of communicating online or in any widely read medium (or communicating in general):

People perceive things differently and you do not know the audience completely.

Regardless of the time taken by authors to painfully scrutinizing their own words, the message will not always be perceived as intended.

herself said:

>I do not feel anything I've written on this topic has been disrespectful.

True… but may have appeared so to some.

Counting… How many times have I said something and sometime later realized, aw crap why did I phrase it that way… losing count.

Tiara · Post by **Tiara** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 9:51 am

DE FACTO wrote:any possibility we can forget all of this and get back to what was the original point?

The "deal" as I understand it is that there will be a meeting tonight at the BM office in SF. It starts at 6pm local time. There is a conference call-in number available for people not in SF.

The agenda (from an email received from Spanky) will be as follows:
A. Recent Accomplishments (Yay! [or Booo!])
B. BBS History (in this slide, we see an SE30...)
C. Chart roles and teammates
D. Define Goals for Team: Why?
F. Feedback from everyone about current state of things
G. Give "Old Timers" a chance to give feedback
O. Outstanding Tasks: Nicole's got a great big 'ol list for us
R. Resources: What resources are available already and what can we
provide to help.
Z. Brainstorming: Please save all of the "what if" and "we could" or
"wouldn't it be great" for this brainstorm session, there are a lot of
great things we can do!

I had hoped to be able to participate by phone, but now it looks like that will not be possible due to a personal schedule conflict. My main goal was to listen to what is being done and try to make sure that some of the more disgruntled "old timers" listened objectively to that news. If someone who is able to participate could report out a summary of what happens, that would be great.

herself · Post by **herself** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 10:04 am

I'd like to say one more thing, which was said in the missing post, and then I'll leave it alone, because I am not insensitive to your criticisms. Zul said something about how s/he thinks my feedback is not welcome here since I have my own place, why don't just shut up or go away. My response is that this forum will die w/out feedback. On the altplaya, I have asked REPEATEDLY for feedback from my users because

I WANT MY USERS TO LIKE THEIR ENVIRONMENT

It seems to me that here, only the "nice" users are going to be accommodated. I hope you all enjoy the mutual circle jerk that this place will thus become.

Kinetic II · Post by **Kinetic II** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 10:18 am

herself wrote:It seems to me that here, only the "nice" users are going to be accommodated. I hope you all enjoy the mutual circle jerk that this place will thus become.

Cute, but totally unrealistic. This is an online community and it's still open minded enough that all types will have a voice. At least that's how I see it right now. That may change after I hear the conference call tonight and get a better feel for the PTB and all the different agendas that will be surfacing.

H, I hope you didn't take my comments as an attack, I was just giving out a core level reax to what you posted. I like you, love your board, but whew, those last posts sure come across as harsh, and I love a good line of tough questions. Online communication is not the best for communicating intentions, inflections...and it makes being misunderstood so easy.

herself · Post by **herself** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 10:21 am

Kinetic, I do not respond to every post and don't bother w ones that don't motivate me to respond.

michael · Post by **michael** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 10:24 am

DE FACTO wrote:...get back to what was the original point?

Good call.

BTW, A circle jerk sounds fun only if it involves all genders.

I love thread drift.

herself · Post by **herself** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 10:43 am

hey you guys, me and my big mouth can't resist saying one more thing. I kind of thought the whole "are you paid" business was resolved nicely by spanky's very articulate response to my question. I think what he wrote should go into some bm archive somewhere because it so well encapsulates the dedication many burners feel to burning man and all it represents, and in such, remuneration is almost irrelevant. I kind of thought spanky put me a bit to shame a bit w his response.

I appreciate the feedback about the tenor of my writing. I know I'm harsh, I'm just not sure I care. I do know from experience that you don't get much done by pissing people off and I imagine I've pissed some people off. But I kind of think that's good and I hope I have the chance to meet michael (prev. spanky!) and Zul out on the playa next year. I like it when people argue w me : )

okay I hope I can shut up now

harriet

Zulegoona · Post by **Zulegoona** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 4:13 pm

I can Join in the make up love fest too. Harriet I did not really mean for you to pack up and leave, I know you are passionate about the community and greatly appreciate all that you do for it. As well as the contributions of III and the other vocal old timers.
I wasn't around for the old BBS and haven't spent much time on any others for that mater so I don't see the problems with this one that has people so worked up. So in the context of not seeing much of a problem I see what appears to be a lot of negativity and real anger directed towards the only system I've know and it has an accumulating effect of feeling kind of icky.
In the end we are all trying to defend and create the best community we can. Dissention, disagreement, debate, and argument are all a part of the self examination process that can lead to growth, and that is a good thing. I guess I was responding to the accumulated negativity and apparent anger and you just happened to be the one who triggered a response.
I'm a 47 year old ( as adult as I'm going to get ) male and I certainly should be able to put up with a little yelling, I have and continued to read on because I care too. For me as the anger seemed to become directed at individuals rather than the system and was leading to an abuse situation. I needed to say something. If anything besides being informative, mutually supportive, inspiring, and mentally challenging, this place should be fun, and it was at risk of losing that in the discord.

As for the contract thing, I have know Idea about the legality , maybe it is my Midwestern up bringing but to my mind if a person says they are going to do something they should do every thing in there powers to do it, and they should be expected to. I guess for me it is a moral thing and just common courtesy to do less is to disrespect the individual you made your promise to and the endeavor you volunteered for. I realize the whole world doesn't hold my view on this and I have been disappointed by people because of it but it seems to me that to expect less would be disrespecting the volunteer.

sorry I got so long winded . I'm just trying to be a part of the community too.

Post by **spanky** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 5:40 pm

Nar, I'm an idiot, and didn't post this here even though I had it this morning:

We set up the webcam to broadcast the meeting. It's through Yahoo so you'll have to have Yahoo Messenger and a Yahoo account to see it (sorry).

18:00 Pacific Time
YIM handle: brc_engineering
Chat Room: ePlaya Summit Meeting

Hope to see you there!

foamin' at the mouth · Post by **foamin' at the mouth** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 5:50 pm

Will something get posted on the board about the meeting?Here perhaps? sorry to ask the obvious question, but wondering.

Kinetic II · Post by **Kinetic II** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 5:56 pm

The latest...and yes the webcam on Yahoo is working. Here's a cut and paste from Spanky's e-mail he sent out:

Conference Phone:
1-800-416-8128 code 246294
(Call up and hang out and listen to the groovy tunes till we get on with it and call in.)

ePlaya Summit 2003 -or- What's the deal with the ePlaya..?

1. Introductions: We usually do intros 'round the room and phone with name, years attended Burning Man, where you're from or something and the answer to some random question made up on the spot. This time I'd like to add that we all give our interest in the ePlaya, how you come to us and how you think you can help. Then we pick two 'Leave No Trace' volunteers to help clean up after ourselves.

2. Go over the agenda: We always do this even though it's on the whiteboard, it's usually been sent out in advance, and we're about to actually _do_ it, we still go over the agenda. So, #2 is "Go Over The Agenda". Oh, heh, here's the actual agenda itself: (take a second to go over it now)

A. Recent Accomplishments (Yay! [or Booo!])
B. BBS History (in this slide, we see an SE30...)
C. Chart roles and teammates
D. Define Goals for Team: Why?
F. Feedback from everyone about current state of things
G. Give "Old Timers" a chance to give feedback
O. Outstanding Tasks: Nicole's got a great big 'ol list for us
R. Resources: What resources are available already and what can we provide to help.
Z. Brainstorming: Please save all of the "what if" and "we could" or "wouldn't it be great" for this brainstorm session, there are a lot of great things we can do!

3. Determine next meeting date...

4. Leave No Trace, dammit!

~Spanky

foamin' at the mouth · Post by **foamin' at the mouth** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 8:42 pm

Thanks and sorry I wasn't more specific. I meant after the meeting would someone be relaying what happened. I appreciate your trouble of posting this again here though.

Kinetic II · Post by **Kinetic II** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 10:04 pm

I have a page of notes on top of notes and it will take time to sort out. And others might beat me to it.
There are some positive changes being suggested, I know that it wasn't just a mix of core group and ORG types, and I'll leave it at that. I'm tired, it's been a long, long day.

herself · Post by **herself** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 10:31 pm

I think it's really cool that the meeting was available by webcam! sorry I missed it!

Kinetic II · Post by **Kinetic II** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 11:56 pm

herself wrote:I think it's really cool that the meeting was available by webcam! sorry I missed it!

Spanky mentioned the webcam is something they are trying to do more of. You still had to call in....they had, ahem: technical difficulties. It was either a lost microphone or a broken one, I'm not sure which. But it was a good meeting. Precip caught some of it before she had to leave, PJ was there along with A Force For Good and others. On the Org side, we had AG, Britton (?), Technopatra, and others who I can't find their names just yet. It was kinda balanced, imho. The org got their points in but the cabal or core group as others call it was well represented...PJ got several good points in and I'm happy that he showed up. Between him and Force, they covered stuff pretty well. The details will be out soon enough.

So what's the deal on this eplaya summit?

Hey, that lady has a beard...

Re: Hey, that lady has a beard...

Meeting to be "webcast"