CHILDREN, INCIDENTS, SAFETY

alexamonkey · Post by **alexamonkey** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 11:56 pm

Does anyone know if there has been any 'inapropriate' behavior towards children, incidents, etc, etc?

Ron · Post by **Ron** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 7:21 am

Yes there has been. Every day someone behaves 'inappropriately,' around/at kids at BRC because, after all, what's appropriate is wildly subjective.

Or are you talking about sexual assault? I'd imagine that happens as well but I don't know of anyone short of the ORG that has actual statistics on reported crimes at BRC. Anyone?

Ron

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 9:02 am

From what I know (and it's not much) there's possibly less sexual assult at BRC than in a city of comparable size over a comparable streach of time. Which does not mean that it doesn't happen and it doesn't account for unreported incidents.

From what I've heard, if a kid gets lost the Rangers go all out to find him/her again. Despite the rumors of "hippies" dumping thier kids on nieghbors and dissapering for days on end, it seems that children on playa have good adult supervision for the most part.

I do have some details of an incident last year that I find disturbing, but really very few. I don't want to talk about it on the board, because even though I think that the LLC should be forthcoming about incidents like this so people can accurately access the risks, I find myself getting dizzy even trying to formulate a good enough report that doesn't violate confidentiality or provide ammunition to the BMhaters. Besides which, I really don't have enough information for it to be much more than rumor.

mojo · Post by **mojo** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 9:45 am

My position is pretty unpopular - I get REALLY uncomfortable when people bring children into my camp because I don't want to worry about having to censor the behavior of others visiting or passing through my camp.

SED · Post by **SED** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 12:21 pm

Just bringing children to BM at all is inappropriate.

Kinetic IV · Post by **Kinetic IV** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 1:09 pm

SED wrote:Just bringing children to BM at all is inappropriate.

With all due respect SED I call BULLSHIT.

My sister Tiffany went two years ago and it literally transformed her life. It was and even in hindsight still is one of the best things she's got to do. It opened her eyes to many things, it opened up her creativity and has sent her off on many different tangents with opportunities to learn along the way. But that's just a part of it.

Anytime you get kids away from the PS2 and TV for a week and have them interacting with others is good. Sometimes the kids see things that they perhaps shouldn't...but it can also offer an opportunity to talk to your kids about things that might not come up otherwise.

It's all in how one looks at it...sure there are lots of negative things for the kids to get wrapped up in out there....but you can have the same stuff happen right at home. When I was in Kidsville I saw a strong community with caring parents and overall good kids that had a blast...and in quite a few cases the energy of the kids infected others around them and inspired their art or even made the artist feel his time spent was worth it thanks to the kids reactions and approval. I'll stop my soapbox spiel but I think it's wrong to just throw out a blanket exclusion on kids. After all BM is partly about building a community and that means it's inclusive...not exclusive.

(If you want exclusive there's a spin off website from the eplaya that can teach you all about that!)
(/soapbox)

mojo · Post by **mojo** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 1:20 pm

I know this has all been hashed and overhashed in other threads, but, K - how old was your sister? I think there are good arguments on both sides of this issue.

mojo · Post by **mojo** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 1:31 pm

For example - a couple of years ago, a young lady visiting in my camp was discussing her timidity to go topless in CT - she was in the process of removing her shirt when a woman walked up with her 6 year old son. The young lady grabbed her shirt and ran for cover.

It doesn't matter who was right or wrong in this - it's just that I really like it that BM encourages more childlike behavior in its adult participants than they are usually willing to try in the real world. For me, it's not that the children don't benefit from the experience - its that the adults may be more inhibited by their presence.

Kinetic IV · Post by **Kinetic IV** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 1:40 pm

mojo wrote:I know this has all been hashed and overhashed in other threads, but, K - how old was your sister? I think there are good arguments on both sides of this issue.

She had just turned 16 at the time.

I literally can't say enough about how the entire experience from the trip out and back to the week at BRC transformed her. And I can't say enough good things about Kidsville either....that's a damn good group of people over there.

ibdave · Post by **ibdave** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 2:15 pm

Kinetic IV wrote:
mojo wrote:I know this has all been hashed and overhashed in other threads, but, K - how old was your sister? I think there are good arguments on both sides of this issue.
She had just turned 16 at the time.

I'm Sorry, but thats not a kid, that age is now an young ADULT.

Kinetic IV · Post by **Kinetic IV** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 2:19 pm

It all depends on your definition. Until she is of legal age (18) to drive, vote, etc, and is out of public school our family considered her to be a kid.

Pushing that to the side I fall back on LH's comments about kids at the event. He talks about the importance of it a lot more eloquently than I can put it and I fully agree with him.

SED · Post by **SED** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 5:14 pm

Calling all pervs: BRC is a great place to go wiggle your weanie around kids.

Kinetic IV · Post by **Kinetic IV** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 5:35 pm

SED wrote:Calling all pervs: BRC is a great place to go wiggle your weanie around kids.

That is fucking sick and downright disgusting.

BRC would also be a great place to get the community involved in an apprehension and have the Pershing County Sheriff arrest any sorry fucker that tried it too.

SED · Post by **SED** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 6:58 pm

All pervs, now hear this: BRC is home to naive twits who think the law can stop you. Their children delivered, straight into your waiting hands. . .

Badger · Post by **Badger** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 8:02 pm

I still love ya SED.

Ya still make me laugh.

Ron · Post by **Ron** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 8:14 pm

I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that there were fewer per capita incidents of very young minors being sexually assaulted at BRC than in other cities. After all most of said assaults are enacted by relatives and the kids probably have fewer relatives around to perpetrate such attacks.

However, I'd also bet that there are more acts of statutory rape, and rape by a date than in the outside world. Alcohol tends to play a big contribution role in these situations and the booze does flow at BRC, as we all know.

But like the mysterious-Ichthy I'm just guessing. Now if you include "flashing," as a sexual assault it's off the scale as public nudity is all over the place at BRC. And I don't think I've spent a night time cycle without seeing a public sex act, but it could be the places I tend to find myself as well....

On a good night, that is. ;)

Ron

SED · Post by **SED** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 8:25 pm

All a perv needs is a lawn chair and an erection. Sooner or later, a twit with a kid in tow will walk right past. By the time a LEO arrives, both woody and perv can fade away.

Zulegoona · Post by **Zulegoona** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 8:35 pm

Even so, This is damaging to the child How?

SED · Post by **SED** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 8:44 pm

Good point, Zoo, but I still don't want my kids viewing woodys at the pleasure of pervs. Gratifying pervs doesn't make the world safe for kids.

Do you let your young children look at pornography?

Zulegoona · Post by **Zulegoona** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 8:53 pm

I don’t, but I’ve never had kids of my own, If I did I would expect that I would introduce them to pornography, but in this world one mans pornography is another's jeans ad, or music video. Kids are curious creators and as soon as they can they’ll find out about or look at things you think they shouldn’t,.... Playing doctor is still some of my favorite childhood memories.

saying it’s naughty makes it more fun even for kids

spectabillis · Post by **spectabillis** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 9:04 pm

Kinetic IV wrote:That is fucking sick and downright disgusting. BRC would also be a great place to get the community involved in an apprehension and have the Pershing County Sheriff arrest any sorry fucker that tried it too.

gotta catch me first.

can't sit still · Post by **can't sit still** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 9:48 pm

I agree with Zoolagoona.
I raised 4 little girls. When we went to the ranch to ride horses, they commented on the stallion and the giant balls on the bull. Their comments were just a matter of anatomy,,,like the giraffe at the Santa Barbara zoo with the broken neck. Just anatomy.

When they were 7---11 Y.O.,,some guy flashed them in the sauna at a hot spring resort. They all ran out of the sauna laughing their heads off. Their only comment was that he was HAIRY.
They knew that his behavior was inappropriate but there wasn't any kind of mental trauma. They just laughed it off and forgot about it.

Kids are curious about everything, but seeing a naked guy is more of a novelty than a traumatic experience.That's the only reason that kids read National Geographic.
Dan

Kinetic IV · Post by **Kinetic IV** » Fri Jun 23, 2006 6:31 am

spectabillis wrote:
Kinetic IV wrote:That is fucking sick and downright disgusting. BRC would also be a great place to get the community involved in an apprehension and have the Pershing County Sheriff arrest any sorry fucker that tried it too.
gotta catch me first.

That could quite easily be arranged. No problem. No problem at all.

spectabillis · Post by **spectabillis** » Fri Jun 23, 2006 7:33 am

Kinetic IV wrote:That could quite easily be arranged. No problem. No problem at all.

i guess hanging naked around kidsville gives it away, yes?

SED · Post by **SED** » Fri Jun 23, 2006 7:42 am

spectabillis wrote:
Kinetic IV wrote:That could quite easily be arranged. No problem. No problem at all.
i guess hanging naked around kidsville gives it away, yes?

Well K, now that you got him, whatcha gonna do with him? Seems like one of them incorrigible, recidivistic types, to me.

spectabillis · Post by **spectabillis** » Fri Jun 23, 2006 8:03 am

hey now, be dressed up in costume and aint botherin nobody 'cept a few kids. thats right, a costume so what you gonna do - apprehend anyone at burnin man in a costume?

Ron · Post by **Ron** » Fri Jun 23, 2006 9:11 am

spectabillis wrote:...
i guess hanging naked around kidsville gives it away, yes?

That and the candy bars on fishing lines you keep flinging around...

Ron

Ron · Post by **Ron** » Fri Jun 23, 2006 9:25 am

On the notion that, "kids aren't appropriate," at the burn, I'll take some limited exception. As the father of a 10 year old I don't bring my son to the burn because I have a hard enough time taking care of myself there, let alone taking care of him. Call it laziness more than any fear for what he'll see or do. Nudity isn't an inherent harm causing thing, in my world. And that illustrates my core point.

Are kids appropriate at the burn? It's up to the kid's parents, IMHO. There's nothing inherently damaging to a kid's psyche at the burn. No more so than anywhere else, as far as I'm concerned. Folk having sex, taking drugs, and saying stupid things? Sounds like home for a lot of kids (myself included) only when it happens on the home front such behavior often lacks the playfulness that is common in BRC.

The kids may inhibit some adults' behavior? That's the adults' issue, not the kids. There are plenty of other adults at BRC that may inhibit some adult's behavior. There's nothing like a group of fat, over 50, hairy, beer drinking men to inhibit the sexual behavior of some 19 year old hard bodied girls. Shall we start barring any man with a BMI over X, nacky facial hair, and a tendency to take pictures because some adult women won't ride in critical tits while they are there? Nah, not as far as I'm concerned. And if we were going to try to ban those adults who inspire inhibitions we'd have to start with law enforcement as they are the most inhibiting force on the playa, IME. So this effect doesn't really enter into my thinking.

It's my position that the parents get to figure out what, among a world of subjective possible harms, constitutes sufficient reason to insulate their kid. Some parents don't like heavy metal music, role playing games, gang fashion, or whatever. And it's up to those parents to put their beliefs into action. Same with the burn, IMHO. I support those parents who do bring their kids to the burn, and those who don't. Either is an act of parenting and no one's business outside of that family. Unless and until we start crossing the line to clear cut abuse or neglect I'll vote for parental responsibility and authority. And the very fact that so many reasonable people can disagree about the burn's status as either abuse or neglect show's it's neither. Don't feed the kid for weeks, barring some medical necessity? Reasonable folk will agree that's neglect. Bring that same kid to the burn? It's not so clear and thus I come down on the side of parental prerogative.

And aren't you glad you asked? :)

Ron

SED · Post by **SED** » Fri Jun 23, 2006 10:16 am

Well, I guess that settles it then.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Fri Jun 23, 2006 10:24 am

I'm with you Ron. I really think that kids take so much damage living in a world with all that advertising that they are subjected to that to be in a place where imaginations of ordinary people run free and people actually deal with practical problems like staking out their tent in the wind would be a great experience for them. Burningman may not be the only or the best place for corrective experience, but I think with care on the part of the parent and guardian, from beginning to consider going to a helpful decompression/debrief it could be an imensely positive experience.
I do think that thinking it through is a good thing--I mean kids don't have the right to consent, so the adults there are with have to make sure that they aren't just dragging the kids along without consideration for their needs, but that's true a lot of places.