While I agree with you on many points, have to say though that the one golf cart with Christmas lights and a squeaky toy on it that I know belonged to my wheel-chair bound friend Dave and it's been a godsend for him to be able to get around easier since that vehicle was provided to him by a guy near Reno that arranges golf carts for the handicapped at Burning Man. Can't speak for any other carts bearing that description though.dirtytuba wrote:This year seemed much different. There were a lot of belligerent drunks, angry "gift economy=this is mine" arsholes, viscous vandals and plain thieves out there. I don't blame any other theme camp for closing their doors some of the time. I personally witnessed destruction of art installations, and vindictive vandalization of art cars.
no wonder the quality of art has diminished....
artist and artist groups work long and hard on projects for burning man. And in the past they came to find an appreciation for their work and respect for their idea. this year they came to burning man only to find rudeness and contempt from both burning man participants AND burning man rangers. I doubt and any serious artist will ever return. I also predict that the Playa will be filled with golf carts decorated with Christmas lights and squeaky toy on the front.
Some Theme Camps unaproachable
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KurtRuckus
- Posts: 22
- Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 7:33 pm
- Location: Portland
- Contact:
Re: Some Theme Camp Goes Rude and Distructive
>"is it a good thing that some camps are so exclusive."
i've been wondering this. my own camp is pretty exclusive, but that doesn't mean i think they're always right.
i've also been wondering whether trying to appeal to every single person, or the vast trendy majority, is a good thing either.
there is a fine line between being so hip and cool that you get more people wanting to "participate" than you can reasonably handle (thus requiring resorting to anti social means to balance the demand) and appealing to such a narrow demographic segment that everyone else sees you as hostile.
i'm quite sure my own camp falls in the latter category. it's part of why i like them, as i don't really like a lot of the things the mainstream does. then again, that camp has always made pains to be at least a block off the esplanade (while still remaining in the vicinity of their friends camps). they realize that they aren't going to be a mainstream attraction, and don't try to present themselves as such. i suspect the same is true for first camp: they only take in a very small select group of visitors as well.
the former category ends up with camps such as the dice bar, or deathguild.
i'm thinking though, that either one of those two options is better than the third, which is to have a huge camp with lots of glitz and show, but very few people interested in attending. those rave camps with dj/dancer ratios approaching unity are probably more appropriate for rebuke than either of the other two categories.
i've been wondering this. my own camp is pretty exclusive, but that doesn't mean i think they're always right.
i've also been wondering whether trying to appeal to every single person, or the vast trendy majority, is a good thing either.
there is a fine line between being so hip and cool that you get more people wanting to "participate" than you can reasonably handle (thus requiring resorting to anti social means to balance the demand) and appealing to such a narrow demographic segment that everyone else sees you as hostile.
i'm quite sure my own camp falls in the latter category. it's part of why i like them, as i don't really like a lot of the things the mainstream does. then again, that camp has always made pains to be at least a block off the esplanade (while still remaining in the vicinity of their friends camps). they realize that they aren't going to be a mainstream attraction, and don't try to present themselves as such. i suspect the same is true for first camp: they only take in a very small select group of visitors as well.
the former category ends up with camps such as the dice bar, or deathguild.
i'm thinking though, that either one of those two options is better than the third, which is to have a huge camp with lots of glitz and show, but very few people interested in attending. those rave camps with dj/dancer ratios approaching unity are probably more appropriate for rebuke than either of the other two categories.
c'mon let's get a grip(e)
it's not like it was, it used to be better, when I was a lass I had to walk 5 miles in the snow uphill backwards with a blindfold to school and I liked it!
HOW big was BM? 5 square miles? 30,500 people? No one had the "spirit of Burning Man?" I understand the "spirit of Burning Man" used to include something called "camp drive-by" and there were firearms involved. Yay evolution.
By the way, there's a brc complaint department in the new theme camps forum already developing
HOW big was BM? 5 square miles? 30,500 people? No one had the "spirit of Burning Man?" I understand the "spirit of Burning Man" used to include something called "camp drive-by" and there were firearms involved. Yay evolution.
By the way, there's a brc complaint department in the new theme camps forum already developing
I enjoyed several evenings around the Gigsville Car-B-Que. I wish I had made it to the Island of Misfit Strippers to shake my booty and peel my wrap. I poured drinks for Gigsvillians and enjoyed their conversations.
I also told people that our bar was closed, please come back later. If that was too exclusive, then I don't want to be right.
I know the strict rationalist/empiricists will roll their eyes, but I think Mars had something to do with the cranky mindset of some folks (myself included). Do you remember Wednesday night's midnight dust storm? How often does a windstorm kick up in the middle of the night in the desert? Mars turned around that night, and I felt a little better as I watched him start to recede. Fare thee well red warrior.
I also told people that our bar was closed, please come back later. If that was too exclusive, then I don't want to be right.
I know the strict rationalist/empiricists will roll their eyes, but I think Mars had something to do with the cranky mindset of some folks (myself included). Do you remember Wednesday night's midnight dust storm? How often does a windstorm kick up in the middle of the night in the desert? Mars turned around that night, and I felt a little better as I watched him start to recede. Fare thee well red warrior.
There is a portion on the BM website that covers minor issues but I'm not aware of any bylaws or rules and regs. The website did mention that "Theme camps must be open to everyone" . It did not stipulate any hours of op's or for how long but it seems to be self explanitory. I suppose that if there are complaints about the lack of access by Burners - then when the said theme camps want a prime location the following year they may be put further back behind the Esplinade. Mind you thats just my own speculation and not actual fact, but it does seem fair to do it that way. Frankly with all the major issues facing BM Org due to this years tragidies I think it will be low on the priorety list.
III - I tend to agree on your point. I dont think anybody needs to make a camp to appeal to everyone. A Theme Camp should be an expression and a work of art in itself as well and not everyone likes or would like my art or yours. Although, I dont feel that resorting to anti social means to curb attendence in a theme camp is a productive solution but I know what you are getting at. Make something undesirable will lessen the desire to inquire within.
The Theme camps that register for prime locations do have a responmsibility however to remain accesable to everyone, everyone may not be desirable to a particular camp but access is the stipulation of the prime real estate (THIS DOES NOT INCLUDE PERSONAL LIVING SPACE) . Tolerance is needed for those who choose such a prime location and do not appear warm or inviting and compassion should be excersised ON THE OTHER HAND an understanding and concideration for others that wander into them would be apreciated too.
To me Burning Man was supposed to be a place where everyone agrees to get together in one spot (BRC) albeit for one week, and act as a close knit community. I have way to many cliques in my other life of which I belong to want to be part of more when I come to BRC. It would just be nice if everyone could stretch out if just for one week and forget their cliques, reach out to everyone and see a new point of view. Cliques do not allow for this.
K, Im gonna shut my gob now I think Ive flogged this topic more than enough.
III - I tend to agree on your point. I dont think anybody needs to make a camp to appeal to everyone. A Theme Camp should be an expression and a work of art in itself as well and not everyone likes or would like my art or yours. Although, I dont feel that resorting to anti social means to curb attendence in a theme camp is a productive solution but I know what you are getting at. Make something undesirable will lessen the desire to inquire within.
The Theme camps that register for prime locations do have a responmsibility however to remain accesable to everyone, everyone may not be desirable to a particular camp but access is the stipulation of the prime real estate (THIS DOES NOT INCLUDE PERSONAL LIVING SPACE) . Tolerance is needed for those who choose such a prime location and do not appear warm or inviting and compassion should be excersised ON THE OTHER HAND an understanding and concideration for others that wander into them would be apreciated too.
To me Burning Man was supposed to be a place where everyone agrees to get together in one spot (BRC) albeit for one week, and act as a close knit community. I have way to many cliques in my other life of which I belong to want to be part of more when I come to BRC. It would just be nice if everyone could stretch out if just for one week and forget their cliques, reach out to everyone and see a new point of view. Cliques do not allow for this.
K, Im gonna shut my gob now I think Ive flogged this topic more than enough.
My $.02
Having run a camp that was very accessible to the general population, I can say that there are clear advantages and disadvantages.
Advantage: Get to meet lots of people of different walks of life and attitude.
Disadvantage: You have a lot of strangers going through your camp and your shit.
Advantage: Keeping it small kept things immediate and intimate and facilitated traffic flow.
Disadvantage: People would get pissed off about waiting for their turn and at times things were too intimate...
Advantage: Lots of interesting encounters with strangers
Disadvantage: Lots of weird encounters with strangers
Advantage: Lots of opportunities to be generous with your hospitality
Disadvantage: People thinking that your shit is their shit and behave accordingly
I guess I could bore everyone to tears by listing many other things, but the conclusion that I've come away with is that you should pursue whatever vibe it is you're looking for. In other words, it's your camp--do what the fuck it is you want to do.
If others don't dig it, that's cool. There are a lot of other places for them to go and trying to accomodate them will generally end in resentment for both parties.
Advantage: Get to meet lots of people of different walks of life and attitude.
Disadvantage: You have a lot of strangers going through your camp and your shit.
Advantage: Keeping it small kept things immediate and intimate and facilitated traffic flow.
Disadvantage: People would get pissed off about waiting for their turn and at times things were too intimate...
Advantage: Lots of interesting encounters with strangers
Disadvantage: Lots of weird encounters with strangers
Advantage: Lots of opportunities to be generous with your hospitality
Disadvantage: People thinking that your shit is their shit and behave accordingly
I guess I could bore everyone to tears by listing many other things, but the conclusion that I've come away with is that you should pursue whatever vibe it is you're looking for. In other words, it's your camp--do what the fuck it is you want to do.
If others don't dig it, that's cool. There are a lot of other places for them to go and trying to accomodate them will generally end in resentment for both parties.
Yep
Id have to concur with Zanes statements, you can't make everyone happy by trying to be the facilitator of 31,000 burners.
A solution?
Tell ya what . . . next year I'm going to build a theme camp on the Esplanade, open 24/7, with a time machine (hopefully constructed with the help of a "serious artist"). So everybody convinced that previous Burning Mans were better can go back to them. And stay there.
Time machine
What a great idea, Id like to go back to 1999 so I can harass the yuppie dot commies and tell them they will be selling their houses they just bought the following year and moving back in with their mommy's.
I hear the same crap every year
Every year I hear how this camp or that camp wasn't friendly enough (or was just plain mean). Personally, I almost always find these camps to be the friendliest on the playa (but then, I’m “born again hard” according to the guys at Skinnard). The same camps and villages get tarred and feathered every year (Carp, Gigsville, Space Cowboys, Death Guild), and the complaints are getting old. A large of part of how welcome you are made is the attitude you walk in with. Not all camps are for everyone (and that’s a GOOD thing, to quote the evil lifestyle maven). Not into polyamory? Don’t visit the human carcass wash. Want to run around the playa naked, with your hippie dreads flying? Don’t do it in front of Carp. Just as the Death Guild folks don’t expect the Yoga Harmony House to accommodate them, those people who are not aligned (mentally) with what is going on at Death Guild shouldn’t expect to be accommodated there. There is plenty of fun to be had no matter what your persuasion, so find the camps that appeal to you (and that you appeal to) and have at it!
Your god is forgiving, Cthulhu thinks you'd make a nice sandwich.
Last edited by III on Thu Sep 04, 2003 10:48 am, edited 2 times in total.
Camp retirement
Maybe if the camps are getting "Old" its time they retire huh?
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TestesInSac
- Posts: 451
- Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2003 8:04 pm
Re: Camp retirement
Burning Man is longer in the tooth than any of it's camps. Perhaps it should retire?Gothalot wrote:Maybe if the camps are getting "Old" its time they retire huh?
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precipitate
- Posts: 746
- Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 10:51 pm
- Location: Somewhere near an ocean and a desert and a mountain
BM retirement
I wouldn't doubt that Larry has been mulling that over.
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herself
- Posts: 121
- Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2003 8:41 am
- Burning Since: 2001
- Camp Name: Camp Crypto!
- Location: Oakland Calif
Re: BM retirement
My understanding, which comes from conversationGothalot wrote:I wouldn't doubt that Larry has been mulling that over.
with Badger, is that Larry does not want to see the
size of the event constrained. My impression is that
Larry wants to increase the attention the festival
attracts, rather than tone it down, take a year off,
or stop the event completely. I think it would be kind
of cool to do something different but then I suppose
I could organize that if I were sufficiently motivated.
If it were me, I would want to discontinue the event
during the height of its success, which may have already
peaked, depending on how one defines success.
harriet
I agree Harriet. I think that's why the current "phase" of the BM project is focusing on the regionals and their activities. I know the Florida group seems to be growing (in numbers, at least, if not in activities), and I'm sure other regionals are doing so even more.
And, for the record, I think whiny trolls are sex-AY!
hj
And, for the record, I think whiny trolls are sex-AY!
hj
I wasn't out to be entertained as everyone seems to be dwelling on, I was just trying to meet my neighbors in the community! But I guess just like in the real world, there are gated communties that are exclusive to members only. But, thats life. On another note, I did meet lots of really nice people in the camps on the outskirts of BRC that actually waved me down and pulled me in while I was bycicling down the street. Those are the memories and the stories I took home and shared with my co-workers and friends. All of thos BM unbelievers and non-understanders (is that a word?) Thanks to everyone that posted to my original post waaaayyyy up at the top. I love seeing different perspectives and views. Thats what makes Mother Earth such an interesting place to live. If we were all the same, things would be pretty boring!!! This is my last post on the subject. Time to move on! Peace and Love to all! 
I wasn't out to be entertained as everyone seems to be dwelling on, I was just trying to meet my neighbors in the community! But I guess just like in the real world, there are gated communties that are exclusive to members only. But, thats life. On another note, I did meet lots of really nice people in the camps on the outskirts of BRC that actually waved me down and pulled me in while I was bycicling down the street. Those are the memories and the stories I took home and shared with my co-workers and friends. All of thos BM unbelievers and non-understanders (is that a word?) Thanks to everyone that posted to my original post waaaayyyy up at the top. I love seeing different perspectives and views. Thats what makes Mother Earth such an interesting place to live. If we were all the same, things would be pretty boring!!! This is my last post on the subject. Time to move on! Peace and Love to all!
From the Shaman
Shaman here, one of the key organizers of the Nuclear Family theme camp and the infamous "Porch Camp" at the corner of Dubious and Creed. Just wanted to add 2 cents.
I believe you may have hit a nerve, gothalot, because it is obvious you have never organized a theme camp in the way you speak of the camps "obligations" to the community. I feel there are NO such obligations (other than leave no trace) It is Burning Man. If someone wants to seal off there camp and create "stick it up your ass clique camp" right on the esplanade, god bless them I say.
Porch Camp was very inclusive. Anyone could just sit on down and participate. Much of the rest of our camp (in pretty prime real estate) was more private with a mosque and a goddess dome that was invitation only. We loved having people and ran into all the benefits and costs involved in being even partially "open"
good - tons of love and cool people
bad - having people use water without permission and blowing 435 gallons by friday, driving to Reno to restock
good - Lot of new friends just stopping by and feeling at home
bad - the guy who felt so at home he decided to stand on the porch and piss in the street AFTER beginning to piss on our couch.
Deathguild? Let them do what they will. It is their Burning Man as much as anyone else's (by the way they are really nice people if you give them a chance) Besides, I enjoy going and seeing a good ol fight when I get tired of too many fluffy hippies (Some of my best friends are hippies but I like variety)
The conversation between opening the doors wide or slamming them shut is a difficult one when you have the safety (both physical and emotional) of 80 people who you love to consider. I don't think there is a hard answer, but I believe the playa is big enough for all. When I arrive, I never expect anything from people, so when I am welcomed into a camp it is that much more special.
I believe you may have hit a nerve, gothalot, because it is obvious you have never organized a theme camp in the way you speak of the camps "obligations" to the community. I feel there are NO such obligations (other than leave no trace) It is Burning Man. If someone wants to seal off there camp and create "stick it up your ass clique camp" right on the esplanade, god bless them I say.
Porch Camp was very inclusive. Anyone could just sit on down and participate. Much of the rest of our camp (in pretty prime real estate) was more private with a mosque and a goddess dome that was invitation only. We loved having people and ran into all the benefits and costs involved in being even partially "open"
good - tons of love and cool people
bad - having people use water without permission and blowing 435 gallons by friday, driving to Reno to restock
good - Lot of new friends just stopping by and feeling at home
bad - the guy who felt so at home he decided to stand on the porch and piss in the street AFTER beginning to piss on our couch.
Deathguild? Let them do what they will. It is their Burning Man as much as anyone else's (by the way they are really nice people if you give them a chance) Besides, I enjoy going and seeing a good ol fight when I get tired of too many fluffy hippies (Some of my best friends are hippies but I like variety)
The conversation between opening the doors wide or slamming them shut is a difficult one when you have the safety (both physical and emotional) of 80 people who you love to consider. I don't think there is a hard answer, but I believe the playa is big enough for all. When I arrive, I never expect anything from people, so when I am welcomed into a camp it is that much more special.
Buddha wasn't a Christian, but Jesus would have made a good Buddhist
Shaman
Shaman
Shaman, Your oppinion is an interesting one but I do not see the relivance in whether or not I have run a theme camp to know whats friendly and what isnt. I live in LA , I think that qualifies to me what is friendly and what isn't to some extent.
Some guy pissed on your couch? Damn that does suck big time. Maybe you should have sent him to the bedpan camp.
I'd like to comment on the assumptions that you made about Deathguild. I never once said that they were rude or not nice of any kind. I visited their camp a few times. It IS my oppinion whether you respect or agree with it or not that they could re-fresh their act some. Beef it up, revamp it, make it different whatever. To me it did not seem to atempt to fit in with the years theme. Even saying that they still entertain and I had a smattering of fun watching them beat on each other.
Some guy pissed on your couch? Damn that does suck big time. Maybe you should have sent him to the bedpan camp.
I'd like to comment on the assumptions that you made about Deathguild. I never once said that they were rude or not nice of any kind. I visited their camp a few times. It IS my oppinion whether you respect or agree with it or not that they could re-fresh their act some. Beef it up, revamp it, make it different whatever. To me it did not seem to atempt to fit in with the years theme. Even saying that they still entertain and I had a smattering of fun watching them beat on each other.
Not to anybody that lives in the rural Midwest. Which can't make sense unless you've really lived there.Gothalot wrote:I live in LA , I think that qualifies to me what is friendly and what isn't to some extent.
I love them just the way they are. More importantly, I suspect they do too.Gothalot wrote:Deathguild...they could re-fresh their act some. Beef it up, revamp it, make it different whatever...
That's my favorite untentionally-funny post thus far.Gothalot wrote:...To me it did not seem to atempt to fit in with the years theme.
Exactly.Gothalot wrote:Even saying that they still entertain and I had a smattering of fun watching them beat on each other.
Here's one for you.
A few of us were sitting around our dome close to daybreak on Saturday, winding down from the evening and having a nightcap. In came a bunch of people who were, five out of six dentists agree, sketchy as hell. They asked for drinks, and one of my campors obliged; they set up shop on a sofa and proceeded to make themselves at home. It was pretty obvious that they were zizzed out on some stimulant or other, and the vibe was pretty bad.
We were perplexed w/r/t what to do, and kind of cheesed that one of our number had provided them with hooch. But still -- we were an Esplanade camp, and there is that 24/7 interactivity thing. So me and hubby and my brother propped our eyelids open with toothpicks and waited for the tweakers to go away, which they did, thank Jeebus -- but it took a damn long while and we were all deeply irritated.
Would we have been justified in giving them the boot? Justified or no, I would have, if it had come to that.
A few of us were sitting around our dome close to daybreak on Saturday, winding down from the evening and having a nightcap. In came a bunch of people who were, five out of six dentists agree, sketchy as hell. They asked for drinks, and one of my campors obliged; they set up shop on a sofa and proceeded to make themselves at home. It was pretty obvious that they were zizzed out on some stimulant or other, and the vibe was pretty bad.
We were perplexed w/r/t what to do, and kind of cheesed that one of our number had provided them with hooch. But still -- we were an Esplanade camp, and there is that 24/7 interactivity thing. So me and hubby and my brother propped our eyelids open with toothpicks and waited for the tweakers to go away, which they did, thank Jeebus -- but it took a damn long while and we were all deeply irritated.
Would we have been justified in giving them the boot? Justified or no, I would have, if it had come to that.
Re: cliques
What?Gothalot wrote: I decided NOT to go, feeling that it was not in the spirit of Burning Man to lock anyone out of a camp for a so called special party at ANY time.
Are you telling me that by going to the Burn I have to have my doors open to you 24x7?
I've camped in Gigsville since '98 and there are times when things are open, and when they aren't.
For example:
We had a batcheloette party for a friend who camped in our camp. We closed the door because we were getting full. We decided it should be friends of hers only - because it was a special event. Have a problem with that?
Next time you're sweating on top of your partner, make sure to invite in all the neighbors with a big smile.
Gigsville is a village with over 400 people and around 40 camps.I declined to return to Gigsville or any other camp like it.
Get your facts straight, Mr/Ms. Reporter.
Oh thank god you've arrived so you can inform all of us peone what the "spirit of Burning Man" is. Jesus H Christ! Are you the only person with enough vision to actually understand what Larry "means". Is it possible that different people can have a different interpretation of the same thing?My faveorite place ended up being a quiet place called The Seven Sins where they were always inviting and happy to see me and anyone else that happened to come along. Truely they were into the spirt of Burning Man.
Can your brain be any more closed?
Ick.
Last edited by tbone on Fri Sep 05, 2003 4:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.