Why are you an atheist?

[dana]

Show me an eplayan that is not socially challenged! Show me anyone in society in general that's not. They don't exist.

Yeah.... It's kind of lonely down here in this basement.

I've been down here for a while.

sure am glad I have you guys to talk to..........

[Ranger Genius]

It puts the lotion on its skin...

[Kinetic IV]

I'm glad to have the eplaya as an escape from work issues like the fallout of replacing the hold music with "Bananaphone" for about an hour today before it got changed back. I'm in some hot water over it but it was so worth it.

Anyway back on topic.

[SED]

I see your point now.

That's great. I've been thinking about it all morning, and while I thought I might have been a bit heavy handed, I decided that it was a stand worth taking.

As far as this thread goes, I have to agree with you that many of the exchanges seem inane, but maybe it's like watching people dance when you can't hear the music. And of course, we don't have to read anything that irritates us.

Snark on.

SED

[Ron]

Ron!!! OA? Why must you torture me?

Because I am that pig? ;)

My bad. I meant to type OR for each of those OAs. As in Occam's Razor. :)

Ron

[Ron]

...I'm saying your sense of humor is cruel and immature. That's someone's kid, and more importantly, that's a kid. Shaving a cat isn't any better.

I'm not disagreeing with the heart of your point, SED, but shaving a cat *is* funny. ;)

Now taping their ears to the side of their head, that's just cruel...

Ron

[SED]

Perhaps you would like to be shaved, Ron?

[LeChatNoir]

Oh this is interesting. One thing that the spiritual types take note of is coincidental circumstance. Why? Evidence of a bigger "web of causality"? The atheist might respond that they are merely "selectively" observing reality and picking out elements that seem to substantiate their belief system and ignore elements that would argue otherwise. Any thoughts from the spiritual aspirants in the audience?

I'm thinking on it...

[Ron]

Perhaps you would like to be shaved, Ron?

In fact, given my choice of barbers, it's something of a fantasy of mine.

:)

Ron

[dana]

....
Ron, I like most of your responses, but this one is clearly your own prejudice. Why would you assume that the spiritual person is not able to do the same thing and change their understanding and belief as they go along?

I don't make that assumption. And if there is a prejudice of mine in there it mirrors your own towards the scientific perspective. I'm not the one throwing words like "boring," around.

Ron

Spoken like a true sophist!
Your original post read: "That's one of the big differences between spiritual and scientific thought. Those with faith reach end answers, those without only refine their understandings and are ready to abandon those understandings in the face of better data."

It certainly seems that you were saying in the earlier post that the spiritual person lacks the ability to change their belief.......
I tell you what, I'll give you the benefit of doubt and assume that what you really meant was fixed religious dogma instead of how a spiritual person might actually approach reality, if..........
you promise not to start going on about how I'm simply refusing to understand what you're really saying... and that perhaps I wouldn't have these problems if I didn't have these Damn Meme Viruses eating my brain!

So one place to start would be to cough up your definition of spirituality. And no cheating by looking it up first. (later, OK) I just want to know what your off the cuff definition is.
We'll deal with the other issues of what I find boring later. But, what exactly is the prejudice you think I hold toward science, that mirrors your own?

[Ron]

....Your original post read: "That's one of the big differences between spiritual and scientific thought. Those with faith reach end answers, those without only refine their understandings and are ready to abandon those understandings in the face of better data."

It certainly seems that you were saying in the earlier post that the spiritual person lacks the ability to change their belief.......

Today's end answers are tomorrow's old belief systems. What, you've never met someone who was Catholic at one point in their life and, say, New Age later on? At each point they may very well think they've got the end answers. God is in charge, or be one with your spirit guide, or follow your priest, or listen to your guru, or whatever. That doesn't mean that they won't find different end answers later. In fact, I'd presuppose, that the value of spirituality lies in its ability to address end answers, something empiricism and the scientific method really can't do, as far as I see things.

So I'd say it's a feature of the spiritual perspective to hit those end answers, not a bug. How's that for some sophistry for you? ;)

(And I'll also own my own mistaken understanding of your words. I though you were saying science concerned itself with ultimate answers. Upon rereading your words I now think I was wrong. Oops.)

....if..........
you promise not to start going on about how I'm simply refusing to understand what you're really saying...

In as much as it's looked like I'm saying that I apologize. I do think I may not have gotten my point across, but I accept equal responsibility for that and wouldn't really presume to know if you're "refusing," or no. There's no ruby in my forehead, as I like to say. Intention and inner state are largely beyond me, all I got is action and words and my own limited understanding of both.

.... I wouldn't have these problems if I didn't have these Damn Meme Viruses eating my brain!

What makes you so special? If meme theory is valuable it's in the notion that we all got 'em. You, me, everyone. And they're eating all of our brains. Does it help to know I think I'm as infected as you are? :)

....So one place to start would be to cough up your definition of spirituality. And no cheating by looking it up first.

LOL! I got a number of 'em. Tell you what, I'll show you mine if you show me yours and answer my question about the cat's observation. I'll even go first.

When using the term I often am referring to the processes we humans follow to figure out what is important and meaningful in life, to us. This commonly follows a religion, but not always, and really there are about as many of these processes as there are folk looking for meaning and importance.

I may also use the term to denote religious mysticism and a generally associated set of questions. What happens to us after we die, is there a god, what's that thing like, how does that thing want us to behave, and so on.

And finally I may sometimes use it to talk about mysticism devoid of the religious connotations completely. Using ritual magic for personal insight and development but without any conviction that one is actually summoning divine energies could be one example. It's a big word.

There's mine, your turn. :)

.... But, what exactly is the prejudice you think I hold toward science, that mirrors your own?

See above. Now I think I was wrong. It happens. :)

Ron

[SED]

Did I tell you,Ron, how entranced I am by meme theory? I'm even going to bump my meme thread to see what comes up.

[the fire elf]

cough up your definition of spirituality.

a characteristic trend to look beyond manifest appearances to determine the most effective way to conduct one'self

[dana]

cough up your definition of spirituality.

a characteristic trend to look beyond manifest appearances to determine the most effective way to conduct one'self

Not bad, but where does that leave the person who assumes manifest appearance is all there is?

[dana]

....So one place to start would be to cough up your definition of spirituality. And no cheating by looking it up first.

LOL! I got a number of 'em. Tell you what, I'll show you mine if you show me yours and answer my question about the cat's observation. I'll even go first.

When using the term I often am referring to the processes we humans follow to figure out what is important and meaningful in life, to us. This commonly follows a religion, but not always, and really there are about as many of these processes as there are folk looking for meaning and importance.

I may also use the term to denote religious mysticism and a generally associated set of questions. What happens to us after we die, is there a god, what's that thing like, how does that thing want us to behave, and so on.

And finally I may sometimes use it to talk about mysticism devoid of the religious connotations completely. Using ritual magic for personal insight and development but without any conviction that one is actually summoning divine energies could be one example. It's a big word.

There's mine, your turn. :)


See above. Now I think I was wrong. It happens. :)

Ron

One of the things that has made the thread more difficult than need be, is poor definitions, confusions between spirituality and religion, etc. So that's why I asked.

My definition of spirituality is sure to please at least one atheist. Everyone has a spirituality. There's no way to avoid it. Even though your spirituality does not admit to the existence of god, it is still your spirituality. The simplist functional definition of spirituality is your relationship to all that you can percieve. (So even the schizophrenic has a spirituality, though I wouldn't recomend their approach.)

If you look up the dictionary definitions:
under spiritual - "of, from, or concerned with the intellect". "of the spirit"

under spirituality - "spiritual character, quality, or nature"

under spirit - "the thinking, motivating, feeling part of man" "life, will, consciousness"

[back to work... I'll hit religion next.]

[dana]

How's that for some sophistry for you? ;)
Ron

You are good!
I'm learning from you. It might come in handy in my next serious relationship.......


"So where were you last night!!???"

"Uh yeah babe. Well you see, first there's the Big Truth and then there's ......"



mmmmmmmmmm nah! She'd probably only slam my ass into the ground even harder!

[dana]

(now for 75% more blather.... to answer Ron's questions.)

I define religion as all the groupings of articles of faith (and ritual) that describe the limits of what people are willing to concieve of, with usually heavy doses of moralistic, often fear based injunctions thrown in. In general it seems to be a kind of substitute for actually going after the mystery and having a direct personal experience of it - yet providing a sense that you could .... or will later.

The dictionary defines religion as ideas about what comprises an ultimate authority on reality. A snarky take on it, would say that atheists try to make science and physical reality their ultimate authority, and science becomes their religion, Ron's 'Big Truth'. (Some cynics have said religion/belief in god is merely a comforting fantasy. And there's no denying we derive a sense of security and ability to function partly from our boundaries. Doesn't science and logic provide a similar comfy fluffy blanket to wrap around yourself! .... Don't we all have our favorite blankies!)

I like science as much as the next guy I guess - 8 years of it in college and 16 years working in a field of science. I think I have a fair idea what questions science can answer (and which realities it will never touch!)

Ron, re. your comments about my attitude toward science and theist's take on "small boring universes", Let me put it this way: I've spent many years developing at least passable mastery of different fields in science, art, design, extreme sports. I've seen some of the most incredible places this world offers. I love challenge. I've tackled mountains and rivers on several continents (with some very scary high end kayaking) - first ascents and descents. Been near death a few times. But my spirituality has provided the most incredible vistas and most intense experiences yet. It's produced the best mind fucks I could possibly imagine and is the toughest discipline I've attempted. (Lots of flailing!!) I only expect the experience to continue to expand. Science is definitely..... a little dry in comparison, and as I've already pointed out - a second hand experience.

Earlier in this thread when the atheists were thrashing about demanding "where's the proof", Mojo made the simple statement (paraphrased) that maybe it's not found in the logic, but in the love.
I was just watching a Discovery channel episode where an unusual surgical procedure was used and a woman's body was cooled down completely and much of her blood drained so that an aneurysm of the brain could be operated on. No brain waves. No brain activity. She had an out of body experience and accurately described portions of the operation as well as an accurate time line - with no brain activity possible. Her neurosurgeon was so impressed with her accuracy and unimpressed with the cynic's appraisal of "signals of a dying brain", that he concluded: "It is the height of egotism to say something can't happen because we can't explain it." But aside from the ordinary descriptions she returned with, she also described a portion of the experience in which she felt that she was "standing in the breath of god." Now for the atheist this sort of thing can only be understood as cognitive dissonance, hallucination, a "comforting fantasy", etc. But until the atheist actually stands there themself, what motivation would they have to think otherwise?

[INSANEPOOKIE]

Hmmm.

I am atheist and agnostic at the same time. Yup.

Arguing over something that cannot be proven or really disproven in a sense is tiring for me so unless I'm feeling frisky I don't.

I suggest reading: Flatland, A Romance of Many Dimensions - This assists in opening a persons eyes to the fact of how limited we are in our perceptions and such (blah blah) due to our current state. The fact that someone wrote this book with these concepts is encourging to me for a wee bit of enlightenment.

[Ron]

........The dictionary defines religion as ideas about what comprises an ultimate authority on reality. A snarky take on it, would say that atheists try to make science and physical reality their ultimate authority, and science becomes their religion, Ron's 'Big Truth'.

Snarky, and inaccurate. Sorry to have to say this, but it's clear you're just not tracking, Dana. From the empirical perspective there is no ultimate authority. Only cheated questions, limited data, the latest thought, personal and shared observations, and related stuff. None of which are ultimate in any sense of the word.

(At least in the realm of ideas. In reality materialist can get as into their dogma as anyone else, history shows.)

... (Some cynics have said religion/belief in god is merely a comforting fantasy. And there's no denying we derive a sense of security and ability to function partly from our boundaries. Doesn't science and logic provide a similar comfy fluffy blanket to wrap around yourself!

Nope. I'd rather be a mystic, in order to get a slice of that comfort you're referring to. But life works better for me when I'm not. One of the things I had to do when I gave up belief in a supernatural god was learn how to do without that comfort.

... Science is definitely..... a little dry in comparison, and as I've already pointed out - a second hand experience.

Agreed that science is limited. That's what I've been saying all along, Dana. Again it's clear I'm not saying it clearly enough. Trying to use Truth to figure out if there is a god is impossible, something that I think we've all agreed on, yeah? Just like trying to use it to figure out if one is in love is crazy-making, as far as I've seen the world....

... he concluded: "It is the height of egotism to say something can't happen because we can't explain it." [/unquote]

And the height of misunderstanding to think that applies to a belief system that does not include the supernatural. Or a common meme immune system defense mechanism, one or the other. Using the approach of the mystical theist we have an explanation for *everything* "It's god's will." Done. How much ego does that take?

...... Now for the atheist this sort of thing can only be understood as cognitive dissonance, hallucination, a "comforting fantasy", etc.

Actually one could be an atheist and still accept supernatural explanations for the situation. But the materialist would have to say, "I *can't* explain that with the data at hand. The universe is a cool place that we don't really know that much about." And then, if sufficiently motivated, create a series of experiments to gather the needed data to build a model of understanding, with limitations. However the theist can just say, "It's god's work," and content themselves with that. The mystic can say, "it's the soul looking around during an out of body experience," and also have their understanding. The materialist has to deal with a lack of understanding constantly and knows that alone is not enough to accept a mystical universe. Wanna talk about ego? How much does it take to jump from a lack of understanding to magic? "If I can't figure it out it's has gotta be god!" could sound like of ego to me.

Last time I'm gonna ask, Dana. Do you still agree with the cat's put that there are no supernatural events in the universe, only natural ones that we don't yet understand? I showed you mine, gonna reciprocate?

Ron

[the fire elf]

cough up your definition of spirituality.

a characteristic trend to look beyond manifest appearances to determine the most effective way to conduct one'self

Not bad, but where does that leave the person who assumes manifest appearance is all there is?

daemon food

(Chiefly British. Variant of demon)

[Ron]

Hmmm.

I am atheist and agnostic at the same time. Yup.

When asked if she's a believer or an atheist a friend of mine calls herself a "conscious objector to the religious wars," and I'm stealing her line.

Like myself she asserts that the question is broken. It really doesn't matter if there is or isn't, objectively, a god. What matters is the individual belief system that makes folks' individual lives better here and now. We'll all find out about that after death stuff later on and can't know about it now, with certainty, anyway.

Ron

[dana]

a characteristic trend to look beyond manifest appearances to determine the most effective way to conduct one'self

Not bad, but where does that leave the person who assumes manifest appearance is all there is?

daemon food

(Chiefly British. Variant of demon)

I like your posts.
Cryptic, succinct, apropos (and funny!)

[the fire elf]

"conscious objector to the religious wars," and I'm stealing her line.

i once heard that when buddha was asked if he was god, he merely replied that he was awake...

conscientiousness aside, how do you know that you are conscious?

have you ever dreamt that you were awake?

what happens if you wake up from this dream?

[SED]

I always dream that I am awake. When I wake up from dreaming that I am awake, I am actually awake. And my erection usually subsides.

[the fire elf]

my erection usually subsides.

i'd rather make mine available for a soul-harmonic mate

[Ron]

....

i once heard that when buddha was asked if he was god, he merely replied that he was awake...

One of my many favorite stories of the buddha involves a complaint he had for one of his followers. It seems this student constantly bothered the buddha with questions of a cosmic nature.

"Is there a god? How did the universe start? What will happen when we die?" And so on. One day in answer the buddha said, "You are like a man who has been shot with a poison arrow but will not allow the doctor to remove it. First, you demand to know who made the arrow, who brewed the poison, and who fired the shot. The doctor knows none of these things, and can not know them. But he can treat the wound. I have no answers for the questions you seek, but I can teach you how to lead your own life."

:)

...conscientiousness aside, how do you know that you are conscious?

I don't, but it's a useful assumption at times. For accuracy's sake I should say a spell check error lead to that phrasing . I meant to have written, "conscientious objector."

Ron

[dana]

Oh this is interesting. One thing that the spiritual types take note of is coincidental circumstance. Why? Evidence of a bigger "web of causality"? The atheist might respond that they are merely "selectively" observing reality and picking out elements that seem to substantiate their belief system and ignore elements that would argue otherwise. Any thoughts from the spiritual aspirants in the audience?

I'm thinking on it...

Intractable brain fart?
Thread acquire an off-taste?

(I've noticed a brazillion of them since getting started with this thread, some of which have actually shown up on the eplaya. Today's involved a badger.)

[the fire elf]

...conscientiousness aside, how do you know that you are conscious?

I don't, but it's a useful assumption at times. For accuracy's sake I should...

i assume a lot as well...

[LeChatNoir]

Oh this is interesting. One thing that the spiritual types take note of is coincidental circumstance. Why? Evidence of a bigger "web of causality"? The atheist might respond that they are merely "selectively" observing reality and picking out elements that seem to substantiate their belief system and ignore elements that would argue otherwise. Any thoughts from the spiritual aspirants in the audience?

I'm thinking on it...

Intractable brain fart?
Thread acquire an off-taste?

No... still thinking. To borrow a phrase from the Ents, "If it's worth thinking about, it's worth thinking about for a very long time."

[dana]

I'm thinking on it...

Intractable brain fart?
Thread acquire an off-taste?

No... still thinking. To borrow a phrase from the Ents, "If it's worth thinking about, it's worth thinking about for a very long time."

Hroom hoom!

I'm a hasty little Hobbit with ADHD