Yasir Arafat dies, world peace has a chance....

[Apollonaris Zeus]

Recently a sin-dicated columist, Tammy Hall, whose resume reads motivational speaker, read cheerleader, recently return from a trip to Hole-lee Land and as a christian she spoke that Israel can't give up more land. It was one-sided and completely ignored the refugee problem in the surounding countries and Israel's refusal to return to the UN 1947 agreement. I rebutted her with a letter to the editor. It was to the point and non-biased stating that the US should stick to that agreement. Wonder if they will print it because I had bluntly stated that the Israel- Palestinian Conflict is a christian caused conflict of nearly two thousand years of Jewish Persecution protrayed by christians.

Well See.

AIIZ

[mdmf007]

spend some time there, live the life. I am forced to work there (Israel) and many other war torn countries.

6 million Jews, surrounded by a hundreds of millions of Arabs that do not want them there. I agree the Israeli's are the aggressor 90% of the time. They definately believe that a good defense is a strong offense. If someone is winding up to attack you - strike first.

there will be no end in sight until Israel builds the wall, and isolates themselves from their neighbors. Gaza, West Bank are all slums with no economy, decent infrastructure, or resources.

who knows, Ill be back there the end of the month and back just in time for BM 06' Later all

[DVD Burner]

Let's see now.......



You actually think a wall will work huh?








actually let me expand on that question.


How high should they build that wall? 300-500 feet?
how thick should they build the wall?
where else has a wall actually worked?

[Apollonaris Zeus]

10 reasons (6 deliberately deleted) to look at the walls in a positive way:

#7 an economic work project for Israel emigrants.

#8 Handball will become a national sport.

#9 Spray paint artists have an eternity of canvas.

#10 Pole vaulting will reach new heights.
















AIIZ

[mdmf007]

very difficult for suicide bombers, and vehicles loaded with explosives to cross a wall.

Of course its not a perfect solution. Some reasons.

1. it would destroy what economy gaza, west bank have forcing them to yield, move or live like refugees.
2. Israel would have total control of shipments in and out of these ares.
3. Only background checked registered workers would be able to cross freely. not like it is today where you pass a street sign and your in one area to the next.

I believe that a wall would help immensly. It is not a solution to the problem as a whole but is a solution to a symptom. If the Israelis were left alone - they would not attack. The great land grabs of the 60s, 70s and early 80s are over. Israel has all of the land they need. all they want is peace now.

Unfortunately some of the biggest religous icons to the Musllim world are in Jerusalem, Tel Aviv, etc. so some sort of compromise would have to be reached.

just my two cents. later all

[DVD Burner]

very difficult for suicide bombers, and vehicles loaded with explosives to cross a wall.

Of course its not a perfect solution.

I wont even acknowledge your reasons since it's obvious you have not read this thread in it's entirety.

So let me re-quote myself again:

I just want to understand something.

From what I understand, the Hamas has imposed a cease fire on themselves for the past 18 months.
The Palestinians have not done any attacking since the election?

Israel has launched how many attacks in the same amount of time?


I could be wrong so please someone tell me where I'm not getting something here?


Thanks.

[DVD Burner]

Ahem!!!!!

In addition to this thread not being for the meek........

I also understand something to the affect that there was some kind of hole blown through the wall of Israel where Palestinians escaped through it to Gaza......or something like that yesterday.

Is this true?

very difficult for suicide bombers, and vehicles loaded with explosives to cross a wall.

Of course its not a perfect solution. Some reasons.

1. it would destroy what economy gaza, west bank have forcing them to yield, move or live like refugees.
2. Israel would have total control of shipments in and out of these ares.
3. Only background checked registered workers would be able to cross freely. not like it is today where you pass a street sign and your in one area to the next.

I believe that a wall would help immensly. It is not a solution to the problem as a whole but is a solution to a symptom. If the Israelis were left alone - they would not attack. The great land grabs of the 60s, 70s and early 80s are over. Israel has all of the land they need. all they want is peace now.

Unfortunately some of the biggest religous icons to the Musllim world are in Jerusalem, Tel Aviv, etc. so some sort of compromise would have to be reached.

just my two cents. later all

[Apollonaris Zeus]

Lebanon had asked Bush to help a seize fire.

Bush said a county has the right to protect itself.

Didn't say a damn thing about a seize fire.

Good Gods we are in the hands of a cold hearted leader!

AIIZ

PS- at first I had supported the Wall, but for different reasons. I had hoped that it would spur both people to intraspection of what they have created or would be creating. It worked for some time in that the majority of Israelites opposed it. But both sides didn't let up in their militant actions. Hamas, once had looked to setting as side differences, but Israel continued to take revenge for past killings. So Hamas returned to their stance of No recognition of the Israel state. They then won an election against a corrupt Fatah. For a short while these two were duking it out amongst themselves. Though Hamas won a popular vote, the Palestinian majority really wanted peace. Hamas saw that weakness in its support and had some members willing capitulate. If given time, I'm sure most of Hamas would have as well, but Israel began missile attacks against the radical members of Hamas anywhere and many times in areas that were heavily populated causing causualties of innocent people. Hamas then exploited that populace resentment to its cause. So I'm not in support of the walls. They once were to define the future borders or at least give the world the indication of where they would be.

If Israel had left the Palestinians, Hamas and Fatah alone to fight amongst themselves, I believe that Fatah would have won out in the long run. But since they didn't, maybe Israel had never wanted to remain within the boundaries of the wall. It may have never been their intentions in the first place. I am hearing from people like Tammy Hall that Israel can't sustain its influx of emigrants without more land. If that be the case and the longterm designs are to once again to control most of the ancestral lands of Israel. America has been lied to by our supposed ally. But Christian America has a different view of the region: Christian Armageddon.

All Walls are built to be broken down.

But no wall can be built high enough or thick enough to stop conflicts created from expansionism. And this current conflict is not about one or two Israel captives, but an excuse to continue that expansionism.

1947 Boundries or nothing!

AIIZ

[Apollonaris Zeus]

Earlier today, even Putin agreed with me, that this war is more then just about a captive soldier.

hey do you think this guy read Eplaya?


AIIZ

[DVD Burner]

I'm just so upset that Iserael screwed up Beirut.

Of all places.

[EspressoDude]

maybe Krystal Nacht is being remembered and the Jewish people are tired of being pushed around

[DVD Burner]

maybe Krystal Nacht is being remembered and the Jewish people are tired of being pushed around

Pushed around by their Phillipino servants and intelligent persons that belive that what Iserael is doing is wrong?

[DVD Burner]

Aww awwwww....fuck the spelling.

[Steven bradford]

So Yasir Arafat dying, world peace having a chance...

So, how'd that turn out?

And, why are there so many Israeli immigrants in the US? For such a small country I sure have met a lot of them without even trying.

[Kinetic IV]

Of all the times for someone to mention Israeli immigration, I'm training someone all this week that just finished his mandatory military service and had left the country right before he was called up.

[Ugly Dougly]

So Yasir Arafat dying, world peace having a chance...

So, how'd that turn out?

And, why are there so many Israeli immigrants in the US? For such a small country I sure have met a lot of them without even trying.

I believe a certain Book says something about reaping the whirlwind...

[can't sit still]

Go ahead, twist my arm,,,i'll put in my 2 cents worth.
After the last glacial retreat, the deserts took more and more savanna away from central/north...central/south Africa.
It put the squeeze on everyone.
Supposedly god led moses to the promised land. God never said it was empty. What "land of milk and honey" would be???

It's a historical fact that the followers of Moses had to kill the indigenous
people to settle down. That was the way things were done up until recently.
The Sahara makes the middle east a hard land and it breeds hard people.
I stayed in Jerusalem for a couple weeks just outside the Jaffa gate. I wanted to get a feel for things. I also traveled by road to Egypt, Jordan, Syria etc
The glory days of the Arab world are gone. Damascus was once the center of culture and learning. Egypt was beyond compare.

Today, few arabs put any value on education. They have little interest in cohisiveness.
Britian and the US have tried to slap down anyone who might bring "Pan-Arabism" WE don't want them united. We support Israel partly because it keeps the arabs occupied and they never get around to getting their house in order.
We love Kuwait,,,fat dumb and useless. Just the kind of people we like to deal with. They aren't bad people, they've just been pampered into uselessness,
If the Arabs had continued to value education, they might not have followed Islam when it became more perverted and twisted.

BUT, here we are. Israel has carved out a nitch in a crowded neighborhood. They took it by blood and it's still bathed in blood.
It's not so much a religeous problem as a real estate problem.
Of course, you don't make points when you say "god gave this land to me"

The arabs tend to be like the leaders in Zimbabwe. They want the land but they have no interest in working it.

Israel is fruitful,,,they want israel. I got down on my hands and knees to check out the soil in Syria. They could make that place a garden with very little effort. Unfortunately they don't even have that.

The arabs are at fault for not using what they have and for letting eduaction slip away from them.
Israel is at fault for intransigence. You touch them on the shoulder,,,they break your arm. They have no sense of a measured reaction.
The shias have gotten so warped and preverted that there is little use in trying to do anything besides kill them,,,sad

The Israelis on the other hand are as racist as they come. I really don't mind racism. We used it here on the Poles, IRISH, Italians and especially the Chinese. They all got over it and pulled themselves up by the bootstrap..

All israelis have to do army service. All military personal have to give blood. It came out a couple of years ago that they dumped all blood given by black israelis. That's pretty chickenshit.
Most of them hate the "Goy" too.

The israelis bought the land with blood and they're still paying. The poor palestinians are just a political football that gets kicked around endlessly with no hope.

If you plop down an affluent neighborhood in the midst of a poor neighborhood,,,,the poor have nothing better to do then fuck with you.

Nobody is all right or all wrong. Moses did the same thing as William of Orange and there's been hell to pay ever since.
I expect the JDL to "rat pack" me for this. That's what they do best.
Dan

[Green Wood]

Fatah is losing control in this civil war. I'm sure Israelis false hope of peace in believing that the Palestinians would disappear after Yasser death or somehow become a more peaceful or better yet a more submissive people is quickly dashing as a more formidable and less appeasing foe is rising to fill the vacuum left with Arafat’s death.

Many Israelis must now feel that peace has also died with him as well.

[mdmf007]

Israel can only be pushed so far. IMHO its only a matter of time until the situation snaps and Israel shuts down everything.

Unlike the US they have the ability to shut their borders, and keep in or out whatever they want. Agter that its a matter of time to clean house.

Very, Very touchy situation.

[Lassen Forge]

Fatah is losing control in this civil war. I'm sure Israelis false hope of peace in believing that the Palestinians would disappear after Yasser death or somehow become a more peaceful or better yet a more submissive people is quickly dashing as a more formidable and less appeasing foe is rising to fill the vacuum left with Arafat’s death.

Many Israelis must now feel that peace has also died with him as well.

But ja can't kill the goose which is to lay the golden eggs and then cry because ya lost yer source of gold...

Or in other words... ya can't lay ALL the blame for their *and* your sins and evil at their feet (like a scape goat... which is another little custom which (surprise surprise) comes from that area) ...
Anyway, ya can't call someone the root cause of terrorism then lament later he's dead and peace died with him.

The chance for peace died, far before Yassir Arafat coraked, when Ariel Sharon decided to march an armed column of IDF and other Likud members up the Haram al-Sharif years ago, and said, essentially, if ya don't like it, fuck you. THAT did more to ruin the chance for peace (which was the plan, BTW) than anything that the Arabs had done for years.

Yep. I'm gonna desecrate yer holy site, and whatcha gonna do about it, ya subhuman scum? Ya know we're gonna blame you for it, so fuck you. Haw haw haw...

There were crimes done on both sides. Depending on which third government you're closer to, however, you will forget one set of crimes to blame the other side for all the evils. When you get over that, you realize that both sides are equally to blame... and until you do, you're part of the problem, not part of the solution.

And neither the Palestinian nor the Israeli side of that fiasco over there will dare to think that their side has anything to do with the disaster, because, well, *our* side is the "chosen" (whatever *that* line of BS means), and the other side are subhuman Satanic animal scum... so because *we* feel superior to *them*, then God wants us to hate them and kill them and annihilate their entire race...

Even tho (and this is important) they are (racially) the same peoples, that come from the same little postage stamp area of the earth.

SO... it just hit me - they're ALL suicidal, hm, no, raciocidal.. wait a minute... Suigenocidal. There

Um Hmmm... makes sense to me...

WHy not disarm the WHOLE fucking country - regardless of religion or race - put a big fucking wall around the whole mess, and let them slug it out until they realize they can either (a) choose to survive together, or (b) beat each other with fists until no one is left.

[unjonharley]

Thankyou BBS.. And may the new kid on the block (USA) get our nose out of there shit...

[can't sit still]

There is now a new sense of urgency. Lieberman has demanded that we immediatly start bombing Iran. Why might that be?
One scenario that can be imagined involves money. The european bankers who control our money[the FED] have told Bush that he can go down in history as the new El Cid. He will be the savior for both christianity and judism. All he has to do is pull the claws and teeth of Israel's enemies.
The great underachiever really likes the idea of outshining his papa. The fed said that they would finance the purification but they needed our gold.
The US treasury has reclassified much of our gold. Conspiracy planet has the info and the link to the treasury site. GATA has alot to say about there being 10,000 tons too much gold circulating.
Anyway, the germans and others now own our gold. Bush wasn't worried because the neo-dreamers told him that the oil from Iraq would be flowing in 2 years and he could put the gold back.
The liquidity flow from the fed is obviously going to bring about a great correction [meltdown] The shrub figured that he had plenty of time to pacify Iraq before lighting up Iran. Once Iran was torched, there was no stopping.
Now he's desperate to torch Iran before the stock market goes POOF. He sees himself enshrined as the savior of the western world. He's not worried about the aftermath as long as he gets his glorious place in history. The market is very close to going poof and he's very worried that he won't be able to torch Iran. The military doesn't want to be suckered into a bloodbath for idiocy. He's had to replace commanders [Pace] who aren't fanatical hawks.
We're down to the final months before the meltdown and he has to deliver. He has every intention of seeing it through. If the meltdown doesn't come before the election, he staying put.
If the reblican guard sees bush neutralised, they'll march. If they over run israel, the nukes fly. It's a tradition,,,like hussein torching the oil fields of kuwait. If we attack iran, the missles fly. Palestine and Lebanon won't be pretty.
It's an ugly scenario, but the shrub doesn't seem to be deteered by law or reason.

[Green Wood]

What gets me is that Joel the simple minded would believed the death of one person who could have been the key to bring about a lasting peace. It might of, if only the Israelis would have brought to the table something the palestinians would have accepted but what they did take to the table was a plan dictated as a take it or leave it with no room for negotiation.

The world doesn't accept or recognize the annexation of east Jerusalem, the west bank or Gaza. You can't on one hand say you want peace, defense and then strike first to obtain them. Strike first (as in the six day war) then say you can have this back if you negotiate in good terms. To do so other wise, only makes you look as a first strike intention was just an excuse for a land grab.

A wall is no defense for a rocket as the recent Lebanon incursion has shown.

Maybe we should all buy gold, but wait until I get mine at a better price so I could sell it after all of you buy it and make a large profit.

Now we should face texas and pray to bush and ask for his forgiveness and power

Like I said before in another thread, I'm so glad that gore didn't get elected. Lieberman could have been president if gore died and the way the israelis bombed it's friends friendly supporters: ie. the six day war and the US spy ship, the English in the King David Hotel or the chinese in the recent Lebanon war, they could assasinated gore just as easily.

[DVD Burner]

This is the next best thread from Joel next to the "politics morning noon and night thread".




LMFAO!

[Apollonaris Zeus]

This is the next best thread from Joel next to the "politics morning noon and night thread".




LMFAO! :lol:

What kind of life does one have to talk about politics 24/7. 15min is more then enough.

YOu must remember that joel only started these threads because I was bashing the Republicans.

And as things, I spoke of all have come true. Repubs as their lowest point ever and the world in a shamble.

After 8 years of bush and the Repubs, anything Hiliary or Obama does as president will look like gold!

That's my 15 mins worth for today. Bye!

AIIZ

[DVD Burner]

well I dont care what anyone says, I still love Joel anyway.
He's a-ok by me. At least he is always honest with his opinions and not a bullshit artist.


and has bigger balls than those others that are on the third rock from eplaya.

[can't sit still]

Zues, I agree with you on many things. I would like to see the rennaisance of your pantheon. Yahweh and his offshoots are too bloodthirsty for our world of super-weapons.
I disagree that one should not need to spend more than 15 minutes on politics. The outcome of our "leader's" decisions affect every part of our lives. A change of the wind and they'll be no Burning Man. It's been stated innumerable times that eternal vigilance is the price one pays for freedom. 15 minutes doesn't qualify as ,,,eternal.
The problem is not so much with our leaders. A big part of the problem is that candidates are selected by their popularity rather than their competency.
We are controlled far too much by Israel,,,at the expense of domestic interests. If our unholy marriage to facism and israel represents YIN, then perhaps Barak Obama represents YANG;

"Obama was enrolled in a Wahabi school in Jakarta . Wahabism is the
>radical teaching that is followed by the Muslim terrorists who are now
>waging Jihad
>against the western world.
> Since it is politically expedient to be a Christian when seeking Major
>public office in the United States , Barack Hussein Obama has joined
>the United
>Church of Christ in an attempt to downplay his Muslim background."

Indonesia is projected to become a MAJOR trouble spot in the future.
Could you imagine Burning Man being forced to comply with sharia? Wouldn't that be a hoot.

Israel started out as a brave little country trying to survive. They blew up lots of British and made such a nusiance of themselves that at last they were left alone. They busted their asses to build a country. They succeded,,,, after a fashion. With the backing of America, they became very powerful. With power came arrogance. With power and arrogance came exclusion. That is when they lost their way.
The positive attitudes and attributes that had sustained them for decades were supplanted by arrogance and greed. Now they live in an armed encampment and worship mammon.
The hawks use the old testament for their guide when they should use the British Mandate. It spelled out plurality. History has come full circle and now it's not the Israelis who have their backs to the wall.
Just as the US seems unable to operate a constitutional govermnemt, The Israelis seem unable to accept plurality. History does not favor them.

[mdmf007]

History may not favor them (jews) but they now have bordres and arent going anywhere.

They will incinerate their enemies on their own soil before they yield anything of value. Little known fact - the Israelis were losing ground in the south to egypt, the east to Jordon, the north to Syria. What do they do, they launch a fighter bomber with a hydrogen bomb of US design, and build, bound for Cairo.

One well placed SAM stopped that mission dead bang, It was only hours until the Israelis recovered their bomb, When the US found out we wante all of our nuclear weapons we loaned them back. They said NO.

The Egyptians knew Cairo was only minutes from being incinerated and stopped their forward agression, for if an enemy is willing to vaporize your largest cities knowing fallout would come bacck on them both physically and politically they thought twice.

I have worked in Israel off and on for a decade now, they are beautifull and devoted people, they go out and dance knowing the dance club may blow up on them.

Short Story about a family across from our companies apartment, They have 2 young boys 8 and maybe 10. The husband gets up in the morning, drinks his orange juice and eats his toast on the balcony next to us, we chat and the kids get ready for school. He gets up out of his chair, puts his IDF uniform on, his body armor, staps a 50 caliber IMI pistol to his belt, helmet and all sorts of doodads on every morning. From here he kisses his wife, walks out the door and goes 4 (four) blocks to a border outpost and mans a 30 caliber gatling gun. (US made of course) Puts in 9 hours, and gets to squeeze off 2-300 rounds to ensure no one crosses here and goes to a checkpoint. He has at least a mile of visibility left and right, and a 100 yard wide kill zone.

Days end, he goes home, plays with the kids and watches TV.

All this guy wants is for the county to be abetter place than when he got it. Is that too much to ask, I think Israel has a right to their ground, and a right to wall up their borders if they want.

i am starting to ramble, so i am out o here.

later

[can't sit still]

007, you make good points,,,all true. The vast majority of people just want a place to live and a little security. Our leaders decide what course to take.
Many of the non-jews fled the country during the six day war. For the most part, they were refused re-entry,,, or at least, re-integration. This was exclusion. Do you think that this policy increased or decreased the security of Israel? I've visited the Palestinian refugee camps. There are a lot of hard feelings.
Israel has fewer arabs in the country but more animosity. Do you think that they've lost or gained,,,on the balance?
The basic question is; do you integrate with the "others" and hope for peace? Do you exclude the "others" and hope for security?
Yugoslavia has some good lessons. I believe that in the long run, one must integrate. I went to Ireland and Kashmir to see what they had done.
If you maintain exclusion AND big economic differences,,, the problem never goes away.
Look at Canada, some provinces want to seceed,,, just because of a language difference [basicly, but not entirely]
The "them vs us" mentality always causes problems. The current wave of latino ingress is straining things a bit here. It depends on the leaders, the attitudes and the economics.
Switzerland has French cantons, Italian Cantons, and German cantons. They're OK.
If the leaders incite polarisation, there are problems. Sharpton and Jackson are good examples. Racism is just ethnocentricity. Like anything else, it's bad when it's carried to an extreme. It's usually a result of our leaders getting the populace all whipped up into a frenzy. Idi Amin comes to mind. No easy answers.
Dan

[DVD Burner]

No easy answers?


Youv'e gotta be kidding.