Politics, Everyday, All day... morning, noon and night....

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:24 am

CSS:

I disagree. Israel has made many good-faith moves recently. They have removed settlements and returned land. In the case in both Gaza and Lebanon, terrorists came across the border and killed/kidnapped soldiers on routine border patrol who were a threat to nobody. Why do you think the Arab countries have been so silent this time? It is because in this case the terrorists were clearly wrong.

You say "Americans are tired of treating israel like the 51st state." and I say Americans are tired of the terrorists being able to do whatever they want to do, able to kill and kidnap people and eventually get their way. That is now at an end. The rules are different now. Israel even yesterday said they are willing to continue with the program of disengagement and has told another settlement to prepare to leave even in the face of the current fighting. I dont think you are being fair. Things are not always on the ground what they seem on the TV or the paper or some blog. For example:

cowboyangel · Post by **cowboyangel** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:54 am

gaza giveaway may have been a ploy to draw out exactly what Isreal expected Hamas to do. see michael lerner at http://tikkun.org

joel the ornery · Post by **joel the ornery** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 7:13 am

cowboyangel wrote:gaza giveaway may have been a ploy to draw out exactly what Isreal expected Hamas to do. see michael lerner at http://tikkun.org

damn jews using mind control over the arabs... damn damn damn.

uh huh.

cowboyangel · Post by **cowboyangel** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 9:22 am

joel the ornery wrote:
cowboyangel wrote:gaza giveaway may have been a ploy to draw out exactly what Isreal expected Hamas to do. see michael lerner at http://tikkun.org
damn jews using mind control over the arabs... damn damn damn.

uh huh.

ok silly boy, how about Sharon being devious? It was his idea after all, and he knows Hamas (and Hezbollah) very well, but please do give Michael Lerner a listen.....stay away from your compromised Wall St Journal nimrods and right wing NYTimes neocon-lovers.

joel the ornery · Post by **joel the ornery** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 10:00 am

cowboyangel wrote:
joel the ornery wrote:
cowboyangel wrote:gaza giveaway may have been a ploy to draw out exactly what Isreal expected Hamas to do. see michael lerner at http://tikkun.org
damn jews using mind control over the arabs... damn damn damn.

uh huh.
ok silly boy, how about Sharon being devious? It was his idea after all, and he knows Hamas (and Hezbollah) very well, but please do give Michael Lerner a listen.....stay away from your compromised Wall St Journal nimrods and right wing NYTimes neocon-lovers.

the question is.... if a jew told you to jump off a cliff, would you?

from the looks of it, Hamas and Hizbullah have done said thing.

EvilDustBooger · Post by **EvilDustBooger** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:07 am

It`s all about Iran and Syria and what happens to Eden after we retreat from the garden...

can't sit still · Post by **can't sit still** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 12:50 pm

Geekster, you make good points. The question at the bottom of everything; WHO'S LAND IS IT ??????

Were these soldiers patrolling "stolen land" or Israeli land? How did they get this land. Did god give it to them??
What is their historical claim. What is the opposing sides historical claim?
Was 1948 the cutoff year?

Sorry, I haven't read any blogs on the subject. I went over to the Holy Land to see for myself.

We've sent Israel hundreds of Billons.
WHAT HAVE WE RECEIVED FROM THEM?????????????
Give me one good reason why we should support them.
We're tired of the 51st state. and we're tired of the fact that they need to be constantly killing people.

All this killing and money,,,it won't stop!!
As long as you have people with their back to the wall,,,who posess nothing,,,they have nothing to lose.

DVD Burner · Post by **DVD Burner** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 1:50 am

I'm pretty positive that Israel will be dismantled by the end of this year if not by the end of next year.
Israel was not meant to be according to the Orthodox Jewish Rabbi's and they are determined to see it through.

Believe it or not.

Besides, Israel has made some crucial and fataly grave mistakes.

i'll still be here to see the end results and to console those of you that feel diffrently now that wont know what to do then once what I have posted here becomes true.

Night!

DVD Burner · Post by **DVD Burner** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 1:59 am

Let me rephrase my last post.
Those that currently run Israel have made some seriously grave and fatal mistakes.

Jews should be ashamed and be willing to correct the mistakes.

DVD Burner · Post by **DVD Burner** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 3:20 am

can't sit still wrote: The Israelis, the Jews and the Zionists are masters at PR.
The Arabs are horrible at it.

This should be good down the road.

sorry......just reading/studying everything everywhere as I do, for later refference years later.

can't sit still · Post by **can't sit still** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 9:21 pm

DVD, I have to disagree with you. I don't believe that Israel will ever be dismantled.
The Israelis have too much tenacity and power., too much joy in life and energy. They're a tough people.
The Arabs are afraid of the growing Shia presence. Jordan is very advanced and would side with Israel before they woul'd side with Iran.
Especially since Iranians are persians not Arabs. Egypt doesn't want a battle. The shias have hurt the economy in Egypt.
Lebanon is tired of war. Saudi won't attack. Lybia learned their lesson.
Syria won't directly attack because their future would be measured in minutes.
If Iran did an all-out attack, they know that Tehran and Esfahan would be glass in hours.
The gulf states have acknowledged that they don't want to get between the big boys.

The Shai leaders know that a war of attrition [killing their own people] is the best way for the time being.
Iran had 1,000,000 casualities with Iraq. They don't give a shit how many die.
Like viet-nam and china.

If I remember correctly ,when he wanted to unify the country,Gamel Attaturk called a huge convocation of all the mullahs,,,then he had them all killed en mass.
Fundamentalist preachers of all stripes are a curse on the earth.
You can't put god ahead of people. Yahwe is insatiable.

SED · Post by **SED** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:06 pm

can't sit still wrote:We've sent Israel hundreds of Billons.
WHAT HAVE WE RECEIVED FROM THEM?????????????
Give me one good reason why we should support them.

Jews have made wildly disproportional contributions to American science, art, literature, journalism and entertainment. The Zionist spirit is closely akin to the American spirit. Israelis and Jews survive and thrive despite all odds. Israel is not at war with the Arabs. Arabs are at war with Israel. Judaism as a religion does not seek to convert or crusade. Judaism rejects outright unquestioning obedience to authority, even that of God. Judaism encompasses many strains of belief, including ultra liberal and ultra Orthodox sects, NONE of which is at war with any other. No other country or culture contains individuals and groups who argue amongst themselves as Israelis do, yet no other country can unify itself so completely. In Israel, all serve in the military, and all are reservists until retirement, yet for religious reasons, many choose not to. They are allowed to do so without penalty. In Israel, Arabs may hold citizenship and women may walk the street unveiled and unescorted.

These are all things which Americans can identify with and admire.

I realize you only asked for one reason to support Israel and all I can offer as an apology is that I didn't include several hundred more.

EvilDustBooger · Post by **EvilDustBooger** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:26 am

....and Amazingly, all that bad news from Iraq has virtually
disappeared from the headlines. If that`s not getting your money`s worth....

Kinetic IV · Post by **Kinetic IV** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:32 am

EvilDustBooger wrote:....and Amazingly, all that bad news from Iraq has virtually
disappeared from the headlines. If that`s not getting your money`s worth....

Now would be a great time to launch a risky offensive. Higher than normal body counts will be obscured by the fog of war rolling out of Lebanon.

While I'm thinking of it I wonder when the Israelis are going to drop those bunker buster bombs we sold them, oops I meant gave them to test on our behalf?

can't sit still · Post by **can't sit still** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 7:47 am

"Jews have made wildly disproportional contributions to American science, art, literature, journalism and entertainment. The Zionist spirit is closely akin to the American spirit"

Untrue, like the rest of the propaganda that comes out Tel Aviv

SED · Post by **SED** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:10 am

can't sit still wrote:"Jews have made wildly disproportional contributions to American science, art, literature, journalism and entertainment. The Zionist spirit is closely akin to the American spirit"

Untrue, like the rest of the propaganda that comes out Tel Aviv

There's no point in arguing over these ideas, except that they come out of Durango, and not Tel Aviv. I am an American, first and always.

SED · Post by **SED** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:30 am

EvilDustBooger wrote:....and Amazingly, all that bad news from Iraq has virtually
disappeared from the headlines. If that`s not getting your money`s worth....

Good point, Booger Man. One could easily make the case that it's a big distraction from the real problems of the world. Even I have to believe that there are far more important matters in the world than what happens to Israel.

But we're like people who go out to watch a prize fight, so we can forget about the ruptured sewer line on our street. And by we, I include the Arabs and Europeans.

Relative to the natural catastrophes that play out every day the world over, the suffering in the Middle East is minor.

Why do Arabs care so much about what the Israelis do, and so little about what they do to each other? Why do we spend more time hashing over this old movie than the one Al Gore just put out?

Every acre of American soil is stolen ground, gotten through genocidal terrorism sponsored by state and church. We all enjoy the vast benefits afforded to us by the perpetrators of horrific crimes. Why is that less interesting than an old argument thousands of miles away?

EvilDustBooger · Post by **EvilDustBooger** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:04 am

SED wrote: There's no point in arguing over these ideas, except that they come out of Durango, and not Tel Aviv. I am an American, first and always.

To quote our fearless leader: Bring it on.

I`m glad we are discussing and arguing.
Kinda why I brought this latest nastiness up...
I`m glad to hear every argument and every discussion about Israel and the Middle East.
It is an extremely volitile subject that deserves our
un-divided attention.
The world at present is embroiled in a political
shitstorm with no recognizable solutions for any of these conflicts.
And America seems to be "stuck in the middle".
Fuckin` A RIGHT.
I have always supported a strong Israel and I believe it
should be recognized by it`s Arab neighbors as a legitimate state.
Having said this I also unfortunately believe it is mired inextricably in the growing "war" between the west and the post-ottoman Arab world, a war of civilizations. There is grim work going on right now in the arab world, and Americans should realize that we are not as far removed from the conflict as we`d like to believe...
While it seems that Israel is only interested in and concerned about it`s
own welfare, in reality, it has tremendous ties to American interests and American citizens in that region and around the world. Israel is doing our
dirty work in Syria and Lebanon and alot more places than you`d even believe...
Americans should debate and educate ourselves and be versed in the truths about these conflicts.
And truth is a very elusive concept with so many conflicts and viewpoints in play at the same time.

So fight it out and scream it loud while men still stand and ears still hear.

What am I saying?
America in decades past was admired and respected by it`s world neighbors(most of them)for it`s virtuous and generous foreign policy...I submit that is now - no longer the case. I don`t have an answer that doesn`t contain violence in generous portion...a pity that.

I relish your thoughts and encourage our continued discourse.

SED · Post by **SED** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 12:18 pm

EvilDustBooger wrote:The world at present is embroiled in a political
shitstorm with no recognizable solutions for any of these conflicts.

There is a solution. Stand up for truth and justice be prepared to sacrifice everything.

I have always supported a strong Israel and I believe it
should be recognized by it`s Arab neighbors as a legitimate state.

It's hard to see that coming out of your earlier comments, but as you point out:

While it seems that Israel is only interested in and concerned about it`s own welfare, in reality, it has tremendous ties to American interests and American citizens in that region and around the world. Israel is doing our dirty work in Syria and Lebanon and alot more places than you`d even believe...

I'd like to know what that dirty work actually is, and how you know about it. And if anyone has a problem with others doing dirty work for them, they owe a big apology to whomever changed their diapers. Of course, if you Can't Sit Still long enough for even that, not even your mother can keep you from smelling like shit.

Having said this I also unfortunately believe it is mired inextricably in the growing "war" between the west and the post-ottoman Arab world, a war of civilizations.

We are not at war with the Arab world. Some elements in the Arab world are at war with us. It is in our interest for all people everywhere to thrive in peace and security. It is not in the interest of the mullahs, dictators and warlords for Arabs to thrive. That's why they focus on Israel. Blaming the Jews is easy and fun. It's their version of bread and circuses.

Americans should debate and educate ourselves and be versed in the truths about these conflicts.

They do and they are. Are you not paying attention or are you a simple elitist who believes he is smarter and better informed than his neighbors?

And truth is a very elusive concept with so many conflicts and viewpoints in play at the same time.

That may be true for you. I find truth to be so apparent and pervasive that I have to take extraordinary measures to avoid it.

So fight it out and scream it loud while men still stand and ears still hear.

So then you're happy with the status quo? Now I'm confused again.

What am I saying?

Good question. Let's call it progress.

America in decades past was admired and respected by it`s world neighbors(most of them)for it`s virtuous and generous foreign policy...I submit that is now - no longer the case. I don`t have an answer that doesn`t contain violence in generous portion...a pity that.

American largess has usually been preceded and accompanied by generous portions of violence, most of it not from us. Seems to me that in order to dispense foreign aid, we usually have to disrupt some kind of violent repression already in progress.

And yet, charity doesn't neccessarily produce gratitude. Often it generates shame and resentment and an attitude of indolent entitlement. Do welfare and scholarship recipients send the taxpayers and many thank you notes? At least corporations try to say thank you to politicians with vacations, shiny new goodies and fancy dinners.

I relish your thoughts and encourage our continued discourse.

I'm glad this is good for you, too.

EvilDustBooger · Post by **EvilDustBooger** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 3:15 pm

SED wrote:

...

I admire your ability to quote and transcribe a sentence, using it as a
basis for offering faulty logic and thinnly veiled ad hominem attacks.

I hesitate to engage in flamey fluff. It would be counter productive to my intentions of facilitating discussions about this very serious situation.
And I would really love to clarify all those quotes for you, but
It`s apparent that you have already discounted pretty much everything I`ve offered. I`m trying to remain fairly neutral, and not shock everyone with my radical ideas about who should do what with whom just yet, at the risk of seeming intentionally vague. And you gave it a thorough thrashing. A jolly good licking at the exterior.
I agree with some of what you say, although I can`t help but feel you`ve misrepresented what I said and misinterpreted many of my points...My fault for letting you? And while I admit that you are quite the brilliant debater and wordsmith, (if not just a bit snarky and smart-assy) your arguments are rather one-sided... and seem to be falling into the "status quo" category...

...and "Status Quo", as history has proven time and again, really is not the answer to this problem...

But thanks for playing.

SED · Post by **SED** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 4:37 pm

I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings. I only meant to knock down what I saw as a number of incoherent thoughts put together in a row. The ad hominem attack was toward Can't Sit Still, who seems to be a thinly veiled jew-hater.

It's great that you want to discuss the middle east, but when you said to 'bring it on', I did and now you seem to regret it. Just so you know, vagueness bugs me, and intentional vagueness irritates me. Take a stand, and if you're gonna pull my dick, to have some real special waiting for me.

You didn't show how I misrepresented your ideas and you didn't show how mine were inconsistent. And you finished off by thanking me for playing when in just the previous sentence you described this as a discussion of serious matters. So what is this, a game, a discussion or a debate? If it's a game, wipe your nose and get back up. I'll lend you my hand. If it's a discussion, tell me something new and back it up. I'll try to do the same. If it's a debate, I'm out. And if it's a fight, one of us will die.

Friends?

cowboyangel · Post by **cowboyangel** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:01 pm

and now for something completely different. Joel you gotta come because I have to prove to you that west coast kahanakuchamungabunga is better than your midwestern bungledrizzlescatgooch.

SED · Post by **SED** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:12 pm

Fuck you both.

It is my fadoodlespingspangity-dang that is best, as foretold by prophecy.

Death to you.

can't sit still · Post by **can't sit still** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 7:04 pm

Mr Booger, Good logical informative posts, true debate without recourse to rancor or ridicule.

If you get the chance, you should read up on the British mandate.
History is all important to try to understand a problem like Palestine.
The British wanted out after jewish groups like Lehi and Irgun started blowing up things like hotels and markets.
I'm sure they're glad it's not their headache now.

SED · Post by **SED** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 10:21 am

Hey EDB

I feel pretty bad about our recent exchanges. The truth is, this whole deal in Israel has gotten me so spooked that I've become an asshole and I forgot you were my friend. As hard as it is to think of the places I know being rocketed, it's really the knowledge that Israelis have no choice but to take it or kill hundreds of innocents in order to protect their own. This is the the big problem as I see it. Golda Meir once said about the Arabs that we could forgive them for killing our children, but we can't forgive them for making us kill theirs.

I apologise to you for my unwarranted rough treatment.

Apollonaris Zeus · Post by **Apollonaris Zeus** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 10:53 am

joel the ornery wrote:
the question is.... if a jew told you to jump off a cliff, would you?

No but a half jew was able to get millions of Germans (to jump of the bridge of sanity) to kill all those jews that kept him from becoming an artist.

His name was Hitler!

hahahahaha!

If anything, I believe that both the palestinians and the jews know how to push the buttons.

Hamas was in trouble. Weakened by the thread of a Referendum needed to divert attention and now with Israel's invasion has now turned the palestinians support back into their camp.

Hitler: half jew!

hahahahaha!

Neo-Nazis- your fucked!

AIIZ

can't sit still · Post by **can't sit still** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 3:22 pm

Zues, the tongue is a scary fucking thing. Paint a mental picture of Jim Jones and his followers down in Guiana.

He gets them all together and tells them that the US gov is going to interfere in their lives.
He tells them that the answer is to kill their children and themselves.

If you put this mental picture in your head of parents feeding poison to their children,,,,,it will make you far less hasty to listen to leaders.

joel the ornery · Post by **joel the ornery** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 4:27 pm

sanity check. if it doesn't make sense, you probably shouldn't do it.

DVD Burner · Post by **DVD Burner** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 12:37 pm

joel the ornery wrote:sanity check. if it doesn't make sense, you probably shouldn't do it.

After seeing what Israel did today this is truely sound advise for Israel.

Kinetic IV · Post by **Kinetic IV** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 12:50 pm

Collateral damage?

Israeli leaders can bleat apologies all fucking day and night but there ain't no words in any language that can bring those children back. I honestly hope that the sorry bastard in Israeli intelligence that approved this particular target pays a high price for it...