Art Car Engine Cooling

BottomFeeder · Post by **BottomFeeder** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 9:47 am

Here is a question for all of the art car builders/drivers. Do you take extra precautions for the extreme heat of the playa for your engine? Idling around in 105*F is probably the hardest possible treatment of your engine. I have an old F250 with a 351M as the base for our art car. Should we put some extra, electric fans on the radiator? The last thing we need is our truck over-heating out there and warping a head or something.

Any other heat/dust precautions that I should consider before we make the drive?

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 5:40 pm

If it has only a mechanical fan, YES install an additional electric fan.

The other thing that kills art cars is the alternator. You are idling ... not at normal road RPM, your alternator isn't going to put out anywhere near it's rated output. When riding around at idle at night, it isn't uncommon to see batteries go dead. You might not need a bigger alternator, what you might want to do is use a smaller alternator pully or larger drive pully. That gives the alternator more RPM at idle. A slightly smaller water pump pully might be a good thing too. A dealer might be able to get you different sized pullys that fit the shafts properly.

Google around and see if you can find some tips for parade vehicles and floats. Many of the challenges are the same.

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 6:29 pm

You can go to bearing store. They have diferent pully sizes. Or can order what you need. There pretty good with the math too. If your ford is old. It may have a fuel pump on the side of the motor. Make sure it has plenty of air around it. There is a nasty thing called vapor lock.

StevenGoodman · Post by **StevenGoodman** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 10:54 pm

Also, you can add an oil cooler. Adding an oil cooler to most engines is very effective at keeping the temp down.

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Sun Aug 06, 2006 7:26 am

StevenGoodman wrote:Also, you can add an oil cooler. Adding an oil cooler to most engines is very effective at keeping the temp down.

/
Oil cooler is the best idea yet... They don't cost much. Along with the electric fans.

Isotopia · Post by **Isotopia** » Sun Aug 06, 2006 7:53 am

I'd also consider driving the vehicle ONLY in the evening, keep to the speed limit (5 mph), keep it rolling and minimize stops. If you stop let it cool ofr at least 15 minutes while you chat folks up.

Dustdevil · Post by **Dustdevil** » Sun Aug 06, 2006 8:53 am

Of all the ideas above an electric fans makes the most sense. While oil coolers help keep the oil temp down, they still need air moving through them to work. High oil temps are not going to be a problem as your engine will not be working that hard. Attempting to alter the pulley diameters will be very frustrating. Besides dealing with pulley diameters you will also have to find pulleys with the correct back spacing. This will be difficult and not that productive. For the alternator I would suggest changing to a "one wire alternator" with a high output. The modern race units will produce 40amps at idle and over 100 at speed. I would also raise your idle speed, SLIGHTLY. The heat output of the engine is much less at idle than at road speed. On a hot day do you sweat more walking or sprinting? Same thing for an engine. One of the cheapest and easiest things you can do is go to a race car shop or a good auto parts supplier and purchase a bottle of "Water Wetter". It is made by Redline. It will lower your engine temps by changing the way your coolant transfers the heat energy. It is compatible with all types of coolants. Air flow across your radiator is still the biggest item you need to contend with. An electric fan with a manual control switch is your best bet. Turn it on before the temps get too high. If you find yourself getting too hot, shut her down or turn your radiator into the wind and drive for a while. At 60 mph a fan is not even needed. NO, don't drive 60, I am just making a point. This comes from many years of experience racing and repairing Ford products for a living. If you need any part numbers or specifics contact me off list.

Kinetic IV · Post by **Kinetic IV** » Sun Aug 06, 2006 8:56 am

Back when I was a teenager I had to drive an old Ford haytruck. The 460 V-8 had gobs of torque but idling along in the fields in the summer heat caused it to overheat constantly. The problem was fixed with two things.

1: Water Wetter. It's put out by a company called Redline and it improves the transfer of heat from the block to the coolant so the cooling system can do it's job more efficiently. I know that ALL of our major autoparts houses carry it for under $10.
http://www.redlineoil.com/products_coolant.asp

2: Electric fans. You can get new universal electric fans from Summit Racing for relatively cheap, the SUM-G4902 fan they offer runs $63, is reversible, moves 1100 cfm of air, and is easy to install and wire. Or if you have a "pick n pull / U Wrench It" type salvage yard around you could scour their inventory for electric fans and get one that way. (Be careful though as the electric fans can put up to a 10 Amp additional load on your electrical system)((Geekster touched on the subject of alternator upgrades, your local parts house might have a 130 amp alternator you can put on that even if you pay the core charge would be a cheap upgrade))

Something else I thought of, do you have a shroud for the fan? If not you can easily make a shroud for cheap that would make your existing fan more efficient.

And while I'm thinking of fans... be wary of Flex-a-lite's metal flex fans. They run about $35 and work well. But those blades are like 7 guillotines...they are SHARP! I have the scars to prove it. That's another lo-buck way to improve the cooling though without tapping into the libations budget.

Also have you considered running synthetic oil like Mobil1 or Castrol Syntec? They hold up really well under high heat, frequent idling conditions. The only problem is if the engine is older the synthetic oil will clean out some of the deposits that build up around various gaskets and you could have leaking valve covers and playa drips. If the gaskets are in good shape it's something else to consider.

One more thing, for $6 Lowes and Home Despot around here carry a cleaning foam that you can spray on the radiator (they sell it to clean the coil on a central A/C unit) to clean the gunk from the cooling fins on your radiator. Spray it on, let it work for 5 minutes or so, hose it off and it can make a huge difference in keeping things cool.

BottomFeeder · Post by **BottomFeeder** » Sun Aug 06, 2006 10:28 am

Thanks for all of the tips! This is exactly the type of info I was looking for. Right now, our truck has a brand new radiator. The old one was corroded so badly, I could stick my finger through the fins and they would come apart like the dust on butterfly wings.

I think we're going to have to upgrade to a higher output alternator. We're going to run a few LEDs off our 12V system. (The bulk of our lights will be powered by our ultra-quiet generator.) And the load from the fans we're going to put on will make it worse. We'll definitely make the switch manual.

We have two oil coolers already, but I doubt they'll do much good at idle speed.

I'll take a hard look at my fan too. Perhaps we're due for a new one.

We have a slight leak in our coolant system (need to reseat a freeze plug) so we're just running water now. When we fix it, we'll put in proper coolant and give that water-wetter a chance.

I'm right by a great auto parts store. The clerks are actual mechanics, rather than the usual dumb stock boys at Pep Boys. I'll ask them about the alternator and fan. I'd really not mess with the pulleys. Aren't those pressed on? That's a hassle if I've heard of one.

I'll also clean around my fuel pump. We definitely don't want the dreaded vapor lock. But, so far in my driving it, we haven't had a problem with vapor lock.

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Sun Aug 06, 2006 10:31 am

"Attempting to alter the pulley diameters will be very frustrating. "

Which is why I suggested going to a dealer. Actually a very specific dealership. Go to a couple of independent shops and ask which dealership they get their OEM Ford parts from. There is generally one dealership in a region that is sort of the parts depot for the area (I used to work on cars, had my own shop for several years). Go to that dealership's parts department. Tell them you have an engine that will be performing long duration, low speed duty and want either smaller diameter pullys for waterpump/alternator/power steering pump or a larger diameter main drive pully (does the same thing). They can get you the right part and tell you which belts you now need to use. Or they might tell you that such a thing is unavailable. It doesn't hurt to check. But chances are good that there were several different classes of service that particular engine was used for. An ambulance, for example, has different drive pullies than a standard Ford E350 because they spend a lot of time at idle with a large power drain (they also have idle speed controllers that kick the idle up when the battery charge runs low, but that is another story).

Upgrading an alternator might be next to useless because a 70 amp alternator and a 200 amp alternator might put out almost the same at low idle. Those power ratings are generally for something in the range of 2000-3000 RPM and you aren't going to be running anywhere near that.

See, I am posting this more for the benefit of others who might be reading this a couple of years down the road. If you are driving around at night with headlights, additional lighting, maybe a sound system, all powered from the vehicle electrical system (possibly through a dc/ac inverter) then there is a good chance you are going to run the battery down cruising around at night because your current drain is going to be more than the alternator supplies at idle.

Also, make sure your ignition wires (plug wires) are in good shape so you don't pick up ignition noise in any sound system you might have.

Also note that the playa is at 4000 feet altitude. General rule of thumb is that you lose 10% efficiency for radiators for every 1000 feet of altitude. This is because the air is less dense and less efficient in heat transfer. This is more of a problem with air cooled stuff but should be noted. If you can, getting a "heavy duty" radiator is not a bad idea. Fuel/air mixtures will also be different. If you have a mechanical fuel system (carburetor) instead of an electronic fuel system, you might find your idle mixture is rich. If you have trouble with plug fouling at extended idle, lean the fuel mixture back just a smidge if the engine was last tuned at or near sea level.

Make sure you arrive with fresh fuel/air/oil filters.

Kinetic IV · Post by **Kinetic IV** » Sun Aug 06, 2006 10:35 am

Consider bringing an extra air filter to change out once you get off the playa after the event. I don't like the idea of blasting down I-80 with a playa choked filter as I'm trying to climb a pass.

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Sun Aug 06, 2006 4:10 pm

Okay, what I talking about are called "overdrive pulleys". There are a lot of "underdrive" pulleys that are sold for racing and other extremely high RPM use but you should also be able to find overdrive pulleys too. Depending on how much slack is in the tensioner, it might not require a different belt, either.

Make sure the radiator is in good shape. I used what is now radiator.com (1-800-radiator) when I had my shop. Got good quality product from them and it came fast. Their site instantly connects you to a chat-bot that will narrow down the one you need and give you a phone number to call a live tech or you can order it right then and there. For a 351M prices vary from 99 to 299 depending on type i.e. automatic tranny, heavy duty (extra row of cores) etc.

Make sure you have a 50/50 mix of coolant/water. Do not use all water or all coolant. I always added a bottle of Penray Cool-Tec 2 (should be available at most parts stores) additive. It prevents foaming of the coolant, prevents scale buildup, prevents "solder bloom" in the radiator and lubes the water pump. It lists for $6 but you should be able to get it for around $4 at most discount parts stores. It's worth it, particularly if you have been using chlorinated municipal water in the cooling system, which is pretty corrosive.

Make sure the radiator cap releases at the proper pressure. An independent shop should be able to test it for you. They would have a little hand pump pressure tester that the radiator cap goes on and they pump it up and make sure that the cap relieves at the rated pressure. If it doesn't, you could end up with a blown hose, radiator, or heater core under extreme conditions. The last thing you want is an overheated engine and then a heater core exploding scalding water on someone's feet ... but generally a hose goes first unless the heater core was ready to give out anyway.

Make sure the radiator overflow bottle holds water. You need this because the coolant expands as it heats. This builds up pressure to the rating of the radiator cap which then relieves and allows the overflow to go into the holding tank. As the engine cools, that excess coolant is drawn back into the radiator. The cooling system is pressurized to help prevent boiling. This is especially required because boiling points are lower at higher altitude. At 4000 feet, water boils at about 204 degrees. If the bottle doesn't hold water you are going to spill coolant on the playa and suck air into the cooling system when it cools which can cause foaming of the coolant which isn't a good thing.

There is much more here than most people need to know, but things like a good overflow bottle and a connecting hose, some antifreeze, a good coolant additive and a working radiator cap are cheap and can mean the difference between a fun day and a day dealing with a busted hose on the playa.

On, and another thing ... start the engine and allow it to run until the thermostat opens (you feel the top of the radiator get hot) then rev the engine while watching the lower radiator hose. If the hose collapses, replace it, it's no good. The rubber has gone soft and spongy and the hose will collapse and cut off circulation of coolant to the engine.

DoctorIknow · Post by **DoctorIknow** » Sun Aug 06, 2006 4:48 pm

Your solution may be very simple:

I had a '40 Chevy, prone to overheat in traffic, in Sacramento, and managed for years to participate in a 5 mile long July 4th parade where I'd be going about 3mph, sometimes in 95degree heat, and my "system" worked fine.

It was a spritz system. I got one of those 3 gallon poison sprayers from Home Depot, put the "tank" (with the pump built in) in the car, made a new hose with a shut-off valve on the tank, ran the hose with the spritz head in front of the radiator. When the temp gauge would border on danger, I'd spritz for about a minute, the water would get sucked thru the radiator and mist the engine, and it would cool down.

Whatever hi-tech solutions you may adopt, this might be a good backup.

EspressoDude · Post by **EspressoDude** » Sun Aug 06, 2006 5:08 pm

Another trick some older fords had and I used to virtually eliminate problems with my 327 V-8 mid engine Corvair was to add a 1 - 2 gallon PRESSURE tank to the system. All of the tank is above the engine and radiator. It had two heater hose connections. One went to the top of the radiator (crossflow), and one to the bottom.

Any bubbles in the coolant went to this tank thru the top hose, and liquid replaced it thru the bottom hose. Essentially this was a pressurized overflow system.

Electric fans are essential. Get the hugest alternator you can get 130 - 140 amp. Also make sure air can flow into and out of the radiator. It has to go somewhere, like up thru the hood...

spectabillis · Post by **spectabillis** » Sun Aug 06, 2006 7:04 pm

ice, in the gas tank.

OH NOES ALL U SNARKY PEPLES HAVE FINALLY GOTTEN 2 SPECTABILLIS!!!ONEONE

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Sun Aug 06, 2006 7:08 pm

Wow! That's an idea for a project ... The Snark Car!

BottomFeeder · Post by **BottomFeeder** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 9:11 am

Geekster,

I am curious about the overdrive pulley solution. Will I be able to leave the overdrive pulley on my art car for the drive up to BRC? I might be able to change the pulley when I arrive, if I have to. But, I want to avoid as much car work on the playa as possible.

I found a guy locally that knew about this solution. He needed to take a look at the alternator to make sure he could do it. I'm going to pull it and bring it to him today.

Are you sure I need a high output alternator? I won't be running much off the truck's 12VDC. Just the engine, headlights, taillights, etc. and a handful of LEDs. I'm hoping to avoid spending money I don't need to spend. A high power alternator could be $150 or $200, depending on wether or not a Chevy alternator will work in the truck.

Thanks for the help.

capjbadger · Post by **capjbadger** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 9:14 am

BottomFeeder wrote:Are you sure I need a high output alternator? I won't be running much off the truck's 12VDC. Just the engine, headlights, taillights, etc. and a handful of LEDs. I'm hoping to avoid spending money I don't need to spend. A high power alternator could be $150 or $200, depending on wether or not a Chevy alternator will work in the truck.

Thanks for the help.

Only a handful of LEDs? I hope you have very big hands if you plan on getting a night use licence...

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 9:18 am

Hook up a couple of storage battries for the run to BM. Cut them off on the playa. Use a generator to pump them up.

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 9:25 am

I picked up a couple of LED replacement tail light bulbs. They fit into the old sockets. Best effect run em on flasher.

BottomFeeder · Post by **BottomFeeder** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 9:53 am

capjbadger,

Don't worry the rest of our LED's (2000 of 'em) and our EL wire will run off a generator, along with our sound system, drink mixing apparatus, and our occassional firing up of the 3000W Jacob's Ladder.

Dustdevil · Post by **Dustdevil** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 9:56 am

You won't need a high output alternator.

capjbadger · Post by **capjbadger** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 11:47 am

BottomFeeder wrote:capjbadger,

Don't worry the rest of our LED's (2000 of 'em) and our EL wire will run off a generator, along with our sound system, drink mixing apparatus, and our occassional firing up of the 3000W Jacob's Ladder.

Ahh!

Very cool!