Why we sit during the burns

ZaphodBurner · Post by **ZaphodBurner** » Mon Aug 07, 2006 10:50 am

Have you ever been at the front of the crowd during a Pearl Jam or Slayer concert? Bourbon Street during Mardi Gras when somebody fires pepper spray?

People are crushed against the rail, struggling to breathe; blue-lipped waifs arched backward with their feet off the ground; sweat-soaked monolithic men all elbows and body heat. The music starts and the front row is bent over the bar by a great, crushing surge. The band plays, the crowd frenzies; the mass boils and a boot or a knee or a shoulder falls onto your head, stunning you. Woohoo anyhow! You jump with the crowd but then you are stuck, midair, adrift in the sea of meat. You go where it goes; left, right, forward.

Behind you, in the rear, the tweakers, the drunks, the hyperactive revelers, rush forward into the crowd. They dance, they surge, they lurch into each other and leap over the boiling crowd until they’re propelled to forward above the sweating, breathless front ranks bracing themselves to keep from being crushed into the barricade.

Now imagine: There is no barricade to stop crowd from pitching forward, and the stage is an exploding inferno reaching a hundred yards into the sky. The front of the crowd has nothing to brace itself against. There is only the firestorm, and those in the rear who cannot see, who cannot hear the cries, who could not hear the screams or smell the flesh burning from bone, they press forward with the cool night behind them.

The alternative is a barricade. Do we want a barricade circling all the way around the man? It would have to be a very large perimeter because a hot metal screen near a fire is called a grille, and pressing meat into a hot grille is called searing and produces spraying, sizzling fat.

The seated masses are the living barricade--the last measure of safety between errant art cars, surging crowds and accidental circumstances unforseen, and if the risk of sore knees or somebody falling over them is too great, it will in all cases beat being shoved into the fire by the same thousand clueless revelers. If you must stand, it turns out the view is spectacular from the open playa.

So sitting during these great catharses is peculiar to the playa. Maybe it means we don't have another Hindenburg disaster, a certain end to not only Burning Man, but all things similar. Maybe it means we take responsibility for the safety of our community. Maybe we lead by example. We do what we must in order to ensure our survival. That is why we sit in our great circle around the fire.

I am unable to return to Black Rock this year due to the expected birth of my daughter Tuesday of the burn. It is not out of self-interest that I ask "Down in front" during the burn. You won't block my view if you stand, but Miss Sharika and I will be thinking of you. Please read the back of your ticket and revel accordingly because your experience and you and your friends' lives are precious.

-zb

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Mon Aug 07, 2006 11:04 am

and all this time I thought it was because our feet hurt.

joel the ornery · Post by **joel the ornery** » Mon Aug 07, 2006 11:05 am

i thought it was for a lower center of gravity.

Norcal500 · Post by **Norcal500** » Mon Aug 07, 2006 11:05 am

You all should listen to this guy. Sounds to me like another real potential for disaster at your event. Large crowds and fire is a dangerous mix. I suggest you look into this matter before some burners get burnt.....

Kinetic IV · Post by **Kinetic IV** » Mon Aug 07, 2006 11:18 am

Burning Man participants at their worst likely do a better job of handling safety concerns than you do. So Norcal, since you commented on fire safety do you have any fire extinguishers in your personal residence? If anyone wants to comment on fire safety they should to know what they're talking about and fire safety starts at home.

(For the record I have 9 various extinguishers and I just went through a refresher course on fire safety with the KCFD)

ZaphodBurner · Post by **ZaphodBurner** » Mon Aug 07, 2006 11:29 am

Norcal500 wrote:You all should listen to this guy. Sounds to me like another real potential for disaster at your event. Large crowds and fire is a dangerous mix. I suggest you look into this matter before some burners get burnt.....

Having read the other, now-locked thread, I just want to make it perfectly clear that I consider each person capable and responsible for his or her own behavior, as I am responsible for mine.

Here in Oregon, somebody just filed a lawsuit against the government because he left his tent to piss in the middle of the night and fell down a 30-foot embankment. He's suing the people for mental anguish because the government did not put signs up warning him of this ledge in the National Forest. (He admitted he didn't have a flashlight; but he's suing because of lack of signage anyway.)

As in forest, so on playa: With this -freedom- (It's still America, right?) is the -responsibility- of relying on ourselves; therein lies the glory of survival.

Continue to live, to rejoice, to amaze and to be amazed.
-zb

ZaphodBurner · Post by **ZaphodBurner** » Mon Aug 07, 2006 11:34 am

Kinetic IV wrote: (For the record I have 9 various extinguishers and I just went through a refresher course on fire safety with the KCFD)

LOL! Thanks for the reminder. The extinguisher strapped to the roll bar in my jeep discharged itself in a parking lot a couple of months ago when it tangled with a bungee cord. You could probably see the white-yellow dust cloud from space. If the two cars downwind from me had been on fire, I'd be a hero.

Norcal500 · Post by **Norcal500** » Mon Aug 07, 2006 11:54 am

[quote="Kinetic IV"]Burning Man participants at their worst likely do a better job of handling safety concerns than you do. So Norcal, since you commented on fire safety do you have any fire extinguishers in your personal residence? If anyone wants to comment on fire safety they should to know what they're talking about and fire safety starts at home.

(For the record I have 9 various extinguishers and I just went through a refresher course on fire safety with the KCFD)[/quote]

and for the record I live in a apartment complex and the fire extinguisher is located right outside my front door AND each room has a smoke detector in it that is tested every 2 months AND I live 6 blocks from the fire department, about 4 blocks from the hospital. I also keep one in each of my cars located under the drivers seat at all times. They are also replaced each year used or not. I turn the question to you now. Do you have a fire extinguisher under the front seat of your car? It doesn't count if its in the trunk because it won't do you any good unless its within arms reach.

SED · Post by **SED** » Mon Aug 07, 2006 1:41 pm

Hey NorCal, just wondering, do you do anything voluntarily that entails any degree of risk? Conversely, is there anything under your control or influence which might present some avoidable hazard to anyone?

Kinetic IV · Post by **Kinetic IV** » Mon Aug 07, 2006 1:58 pm

SED asked a great question...but back to the original I do carry an extinguisher in the truck where I can get to it from the driver's seat. I hope I never have to use it but it's there ready to go.

Now I'm going to defer to SED's question...I hope you'll answer that one.

skygod · Post by **skygod** » Mon Aug 07, 2006 2:59 pm

"Life is a gamble at best."-- Barney Miller
And gratz on the baby Mr. Z, (and a very well-crafted and evocative post)

Lassen Forge · Post by **Lassen Forge** » Mon Aug 07, 2006 3:02 pm

And to throw my K-1 soaked polyester and cardboard polystyrene into the fray...

(1) I have a fire extinguisher in all my vehicles, and in my truck 2 behind the seat, one in the bed, and a 4th big-assed one goes with when I travel. (And yes, I have had to use them, usually on other's cars that are burning like a BBQ.)

And at home - a couple on the back porch, one in the Kitchen, one in the studio, and a couple elsewhere. When I was an apartment dweller I had 2 or 3 around, because one usually fails, and one is usually not enough to put out a big-assed mess of a kitchen fire - especially when it's someone elses building, and all they have are those little 10 pounders.

Now... when that fire extinguisher comes out from under your front seat in a wreck, and jams the throttle wide open, will that help? Um Hmmm... thought so. Pulled a jeep off the restraining wall on the bridge from just such a fuck-up - what could have been a minor fender bender was damn near a fatality. (hint - put it on the floor in your back seat!!)

FINALLY - this gets to BRC, not to mention LIFE - you ever heard of this thing called Personal Responsibility, or this wierd (to some) concept of Radical Self Reliance? Ever go camping in the desert, or on a mountain, or out in the middle of fucking nowhere? Hell, I climb bridges for a living. Used to do it daily. FUN job.

It seems fear of the unknown is indeed the great empowerer to tell others not to do someting, whether it's learning to ride a motorcycle or go to Burning Man or climb a mountain or fly a plane or whatever. Well, pardon me, but fuck that shit. Life is there to be lived. If you actually go out and *do* something, you won't say "I wish I had..." Of course you may get hurt. Fuck, you may get scarred or killed. But you know what? You did it. And when push comes to shove, I'd rather have the sweet memories of having done something, shaking my fist in the air, and saying "Fuck Yes, I did it" than cowering in a hovel waiting for the end, not experiencing this gift we've all been given.

Now... will someone *please* hand me that 20#er over there so I can put out my fire and clean up my moop? Thanks!!

bb

PS - You can die to death ANYWHERE. It's not a activity only available at BRC, tho it can happen there, too, it's just not very fucking often. Less than most cities of 35,000 in a week's time. Is that a good thing or a bad thing? You tell me.

b

thisisthatwhichis · Post by **thisisthatwhichis** » Mon Aug 07, 2006 3:03 pm

Norcal500 wrote:I suggest you look into this matter before some burners get burnt.....

Well, but that's the point.......

No wonder you don't get it......

But I think I do........

Kinetic IV · Post by **Kinetic IV** » Mon Aug 07, 2006 3:08 pm

Now that's a big hook. Oops, hooks.

Norcal500 · Post by **Norcal500** » Mon Aug 07, 2006 3:32 pm

Well I am glad to hear that everyone is strapped with fire extinguishers. The one under my seat happens to be clamped down with a quick release on the floor to avoid the situation you bring up.

you ask do I take risks. The answer is yes, but very calculated and informed risks. I can think of a few off hand. Does day trading and stock market investment count. How about the house I just bought. Real estate is a risk. Got married and brought a child into this world. BIG risk.

of the physical nature. I have surfed 25 foot waves in Costa Rica, Hawaii and FL. Climbed a few rocks, hiked some trails, built and raced a few hotrods on the drag strip, mountain biking, sky diving, so on and so forth.

the preventable hazards would be: just got done baby proofing the house for my 6 month old baby( blocked all the outlets, padded all furniture and secured everything in the house) I'm also an advocate for regulating teens and muscle cars since teens and street racing is a big problem where I live, I had the brakes rebuilt on my wifes car the other day, I also found a big stash of coolant and oil that someone had carelessly left behind at my last apartment storage building after they changed their car fluids. I took that to the san francisco hazardous waiste center. I didn't have to drive 15 miles to the facility but I did instead of dumping down the toilet like so many do.

I do my part. I just don't take unnecessary risks. You wonder why I don't go out to the desert for a week , well the risk is far greater than the reward in my opinion. but thats just me.

MayorOfFrance · Post by **MayorOfFrance** » Mon Aug 07, 2006 3:43 pm

and here I was thinking that people sat and demanded that others sit during the temple burn because they needed at least one time to be sanctimonious on the playa.

(shit, this sounds and probably is pretty trollish. feel free not to reply, everybody.)

Kinetic IV · Post by **Kinetic IV** » Mon Aug 07, 2006 3:47 pm

The desert environment is a great crucible for testing equipment, logistics, and so much more. Norcal, part of the lure of this event is the building of the city itself, it's saying we did something that is quite difficult to pull off. And many of the lessons learned were put to good use last year when Burners without Borders went to New Orleans and Mississippi to help them rebuild after Katrina. Talk about taking almost nothing and making it work....that group did just that.

For me the trip to the desert is not about a big party. That's the reward for a lot of planning and work that goes into it. In the process of building things to go out to the desert I've learned how to weld again. I've learned about local businesses that I never knew existed and once some of the owners learned what I was doing they stepped up to help and the exchange of information expands. Then there's the logistics....for some of us we have to build all the creative stuff then find ways to easily transport it, in some cases thousands of miles to the desert and back safely. The US Military has even visited BRC to see how burners do it and valuable lessons were learned by all. In short, if all you see this as is just one big party you're missing the big picture. It has an impact locally, regionally, and nationally. I don't expect any of my rants will change your mind about the event to where you'll make the trip yourself...but hopefully they will let you see there's more to this event than people realize. So much more...lots and lots of good stuff. I hope you ask more questions of us and don't just fire off negative posts...there's so much useful information on the eplaya alone that if you do some digging you might find something that really makes life easier for you. Dig deep, and you will be amazed.

MayorOfFrance · Post by **MayorOfFrance** » Mon Aug 07, 2006 3:59 pm

Oh, I love ePlaya. Burners here have helped me with designs for structures we're bringing out this year, possibly without even knowing it. And you know, I'm even understanding of the "sit down" effort by BRC Rangers during Saturday's burn, logistically speaking.

My objection is with the humorlessness that I perceive to be creeping/crept into the temple burn. I don't think its top-down, but may be more rooted in individuals thinking that they GET burning man and, thus equipped, are justified in telling others how to burn.

Lassen Forge · Post by **Lassen Forge** » Mon Aug 07, 2006 4:51 pm

MayorOfFrance wrote:Oh, I love ePlaya. Burners here have helped me with designs for structures we're bringing out this year, possibly without even knowing it. And you know, I'm even understanding of the "sit down" effort by BRC Rangers during Saturday's burn, logistically speaking.

My objection is with the humorlessness that I perceive to be creeping/crept into the temple burn. I don't think its top-down, but may be more rooted in individuals thinking that they GET burning man and, thus equipped, are justified in telling others how to burn.

I dunno... the temple burn is what it is. To some it's a huge bonfire, nothing more. To others, it's the celebration of the true temporary nature of art (especially once you see the work that goes into it). To others, it's a memorial, ergo really solemn. To some it's one hell of a trip. Does it matter?

Actually, it's multi-faceted it-ness is kind of like BRC as a whole. What does it mean to you? Who cares. It's a personal thing, and whatever that is, is. Even if it's nothing more than to go out in the desert and get totally fucked up for a week. It's what you put into it or get out of it. >shrug<

It's like my favorite question, asked of a burner who was from the Bronx...

Q - What is the deeper meaning of the burning of the man at the end of Burning Man, and how do you feel it relates to the people observing it, and the world in general?

A - Fuck You.

bb

skygod · Post by **skygod** » Mon Aug 07, 2006 4:52 pm

Risk is the Ultimate Luxury.

ZaphodBurner · Post by **ZaphodBurner** » Mon Aug 07, 2006 4:57 pm

MayorOfFrance wrote:Oh, I love ePlaya. Burners here have helped me with designs for structures we're bringing out this year, possibly without even knowing it. And you know, I'm even understanding of the "sit down" effort by BRC Rangers during Saturday's burn, logistically speaking.

WhyIougtta...

My objection is with the humorlessness that I perceive to be creeping/crept into the temple burn. I don't think its top-down, but may be more rooted in individuals thinking that they GET burning man and, thus equipped, are justified in telling others how to burn.

I'm telling others how to burn out of interest in the safety of those people at the front and the tendency of excited people in the rear of any crowd to push forward. I don't "get" Burning Man anymore than anybody else does, but I've been in the crowd, been in the pit, been on the security line and even performed onstage at sold-out rock concerts. I've seen people's lips turn blue as their bodies were bent backward or crushed against the metal barricade, so tightly that the security had to struggle to get them out, seen bands stop performing and security turn hoses on crowds to cool them and keep them alive. Now remove the metal and the hoses and replace it with fire...

You're welcome to jump off moving vehicles, jump through fires, skydive without a parachute, do whatever you want to do, but if what you're doing in the back of the crowd might cause people in the front of the crowd to get pitched into an inferno the size of a building, logistically speaking, too bad if it offends people's perception of humorlessness. I imagine the people who were run over in their tent by a drunk driver really killed his buzz, but, guess what: Maybe if he'd have listened to what people told him other people wouldn't have had scalding radiator fluid spraying all over them or a vehicle parked on their head. But who are we to tell the driver how to burn, eh? Should we abolish the Survival Guide? Protest Piss Clear for telling people to piss clear?

One group's good time isn't worth another group getting trampled, burned to death, run over, killed by a stray bullet. Ever, anywhere. That guy in 2001 whose flesh melted off in the Dice fire inflicted his own fatal wounds, but just imagine if some Ozzfest-lovin' hesher like me had boot-moshed him into it while he was just trying to enjoy the burn?

What would a great sense of humor be worth then? Logistically speaking?

Now that that's off my chest, know any good flaming-hippie jokes? ;>

-zb

ZaphodBurner · Post by **ZaphodBurner** » Mon Aug 07, 2006 5:01 pm

Bay Bridge Sue wrote:
A - Fuck You.

LOL! THAT IS THE BEST ANSWER EVER!!

...however, I used it on an English Lit exam one time and it turns out, that wasn't the correct answer.

-c

MayorOfFrance · Post by **MayorOfFrance** » Mon Aug 07, 2006 5:04 pm

Bay Bridge Sue wrote:

A - Fuck You.

bb

more or less, that sums up my reaction to people attempting to put burning man in a tiny little box too.

Token · Post by **Token** » Mon Aug 07, 2006 5:14 pm

I'm with thisisthatwhichis on this one.

Trolling is a method of fishing in which some form of bait, such as a fishing lure or a living fish, is drawn on a line through the water. Trolling from a moving boat is a technique of Big-game fishing and is used when fishing from boats to catch large open-water species such as tuna and marlin. Trolling is also a freshwater angling technique.

Trolling involves moving a boat quite slowly through the water; this may be accomplished by use of a special trolling motor

Nice fucking Bass.

ZaphodBurner · Post by **ZaphodBurner** » Mon Aug 07, 2006 9:55 pm

Don't drink water
Fuck You
Play in the fire
Fuck you Too
Sunscreen's for Pussies
Fuck all of You
Ecstacy and mushrooms
Smushroomswhoa dude, ~check out my hand...~
Speed fifty Miles an Hour
On Ketamine Too
Trash in the shitters
Glitter in the hoo hoo
Boa feathers taped together
Who the fuck are you?
Bring a bigger generator
Always answer "fuck you"
Burn all your plastic
The DPWho?
Fuck you man whatever
Don't tell me what to do.

Gravity Mike · Post by **Gravity Mike** » Mon Aug 07, 2006 10:20 pm

ZaphodBurner,

You make some excellent points, and I agree with your overall assessment of the situatuation with barricades (human or otherwise) and the pushing of crowds. I just wish that the ORG made their security plans more public (and that you shouldn't bring a chair, as someone else pointed out in the other thread). How many 'rows' do they want seated? 10, 20, 50? I don't really have an opinion and will cooperate with any sensible plan.

The problem seems to be that nobody knows what's going on or what's expected of them - that there even is a plan. Until this thread, the only folks I ever head to tell me to sit were drunken blokes about to kick my ass - with no other explanation. No explanation, no reason, no action - and with that approach, why would you expect more? I think that people would generally cooperate if they understood the plan? So many other aspects of BM are shared, why not this one?

Good luck with your daughter, Zaphod.

Gravity

Post by **Eric** » Mon Aug 07, 2006 10:22 pm

ZaphodBurner wrote:I'm telling others how to burn out of interest in the safety of those people at the front and the tendency of excited people in the rear of any crowd to push forward.

While I agree with what your saying, the truth is It Isn't Going To Happen. Ever. No matter how much logical sense it makes to have people sitting down in front, there is no way you're going to get 35,000 people to do it.

People are so into their own little worlds that they will do what they want, not what you or "the community" asks them to. It happens in the real world, and as much as some Burners like to think they're living somewhere else out there, they're still living with people who bring their baggage from where they come from.

Instead of yelling "down in front", worrying about my safety and getting myself all worked up, I've removed myself from those masses. I watch the Burns from waaaaaaaay in the back. The fires are huge so I don't need to be that close. I certainly don't need to stand in that mass of pushing, shoving, yelling people to have a good time. Besides, I can get back to my camp faster and grab my bike to enjoy the end of the week.

I think the better recommendation would be for people to take charge of their own safety at the Burns. If you are worried about being crushed in front, don't go in front.

Yes, it sucks you can't watch the Fire Conclave safely, but watch fire-dancing during the week and get over it. You can't change everyone, just yourself.

As always, IMHO, YMMV, etc.

Ron · Post by **Ron** » Mon Aug 07, 2006 10:43 pm

Norcal500 wrote:.... You wonder why I don't go out to the desert for a week , well the risk is far greater than the reward in my opinion. but thats just me.

And that's some wisdom, right there. Risk assessment is an inherently subjective activity. How to balance those risks and rewards will legitimately and greatly vary from person to person. Someone else could look at rock climbing, for example, and say that the risk of doing it was far greater than the reward, in their opinion. And, while their opinion might mean squat all to you, it's still good as gold for them.

Ron

ZaphodBurner · Post by **ZaphodBurner** » Mon Aug 07, 2006 11:17 pm

Gravity Mike wrote:ZaphodBurner,

You make some excellent points, and I agree with your overall assessment of the situatuation with barricades (human or otherwise) and the pushing of crowds. I just wish that the ORG made their security plans more public (and that you shouldn't bring a chair, as someone else pointed out in the other thread). How many 'rows' do they want seated? 10, 20, 50? I don't really have an opinion and will cooperate with any sensible plan.

Good luck with your daughter, Zaphod.

Gravity

{Thanks!} So, what if there was a seated-zone, or a pre-arranged standing area, or a photo platform or something somebody took the initiative to organize to sort it all out? Sitting for the burn isn't worth it for me because people get uncomfortbable and stressy and there's always somebody bitching at somebody who deserved to get bitched at.

It would be useful and sensible which is why it is of course completely out of the question on the night of the burn.

-zb

Ugly Dougly · Post by **Ugly Dougly** » Tue Aug 08, 2006 11:54 am

ZaphodBurner wrote: {Thanks!} So, what if there was a seated-zone, or a pre-arranged standing area, or a photo platform or something somebody took the initiative to organize to sort it all out?
-zb

That seems just a little too organized and authoritarian for the Burn. Better to have a little too much danger and chaos.