Why we sit during the burns

Share your pictures and video. Tell us about the sights, sounds, and scents, as well as the rumors and truths found at Burning Man.
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ZaphodBurner
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Post by ZaphodBurner » Tue Aug 08, 2006 2:47 pm

Ugly Dougly wrote:That seems just a little too organized and authoritarian for the Burn. Better to have a little too much danger and chaos.
I agree it's unrealistic, but so is the idea of convincing tens of thousands of people to spend $250 to go camp in a desert. The irony is that when the burn was smaller and had radically less regulation, less of it was needed.
The circle has grown and the more people arrive the more will push forward to try to get a better view.

I don't have a problem putting myself at risk; I do this. But I don't find much joy in putting -other- people at risk just because I'm having a good time. Sure, they might have known better, but I don't think they deserve to burn to death for it. I employ that logic when I'm driving my boat, when I'm flying planes or driving down the road. That's just my philosophy, I suppose.

-zb
"The Red Baron is smart.. He never spends the whole night dancing and drinking root beer.. "-The WWI Flying Ace

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Post by skygod » Tue Aug 08, 2006 7:23 pm

Ugly Dougly wrote:Better to have a little too much danger and chaos.
"It will seem difficult in the beginning. But everything seems difficult in the beginning."- Musashi

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The CO
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Post by The CO » Tue Aug 08, 2006 10:43 pm

MayorOfFrance wrote:And you know, I'm even understanding of the "sit down" effort by BRC Rangers during Saturday's burn, logistically speaking.
The Rangers don't encourage/yell/demand that people sit down. The crowd behind the front 3 rows or so are the ones guilty of this.
ZaphodBurner wrote:I've been in the crowd, been in the pit, been on the security line and even performed onstage at sold-out rock concerts.
Cool. We might know each other. But by that same 'lips turning blue' token, you ought to understand the importance of being able to move when a crowd surges toward you. If you are sitting down, that is a lot harder to do than if you are on your feet. Since BRC is a city where you are responsible for yourself, the people who sit should realize this as well.

Jes' my drunken $.02...
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When I ask how many burns, I mean at BRC.

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Post by geekster » Wed Aug 09, 2006 1:54 am

I carry a smoke detector in each hip pocket, have 37 fire extinguishers and never play with matches. I sit at the burn ... because I am saving my legs for later. But then again, I am probably not going to be found up close untill well after man fall. What the hell do you all want, bleachers so you can all perform your spectating ritual in perfect safety? If you are telling someone to sit down, you are asking someone to facillitate your being a spectator. Instead of telling someone to sit down, I have a different suggestion ... move back. The man is on a pretty high base these days ... if you move back, you can get a pretty good view. Counterintuitive isn't it? Want a better view, move farther away. Things aren't always what they seem.
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Post by ZaphodBurner » Wed Aug 09, 2006 10:12 am

geekster wrote:What the hell do you all want, bleachers so you can all perform your spectating ritual in perfect safety? If you are telling someone to sit down, you are asking someone to facillitate your being a spectator. Instead of telling someone to sit down, I have a different suggestion ... move back.

Nobody said anything about bleachers. I agree with regard to sitting down or yelling at people to sit down. (I find some cranky, washed-up hippie screeching "down in front" as annoying as the people standing in front.) I'm talking about why there's at least five rows of people who DO sit down, and why it's the rational thing to do.

I'm launching preemptive disagreement about the candy-eyed raver notion of "just letting people do what they do" because first-time burners might not know any better about a lot of things. Like, say, getting hurt or burned up or falling off the back of a moving art car because apparently they haven't figured out that there really -are- no safety belts; like, if you get too close to the fire some arrogant, selfish fucktards might accidentally push you in because they're too wrapped up in their own experience to consider anybody but themselves.

I should be able to bring all my guns to blast clay pigeons or propane tanks or speeding art cars on the esplanade. Pilots should be allowed to buzz Black Rock City but, they don't because 30,000 people are too goddam clueless to stay out of their way...

I should be able to dump my trash in the shitter, 'cause I paid my ticket, right? Who the fuck are these other burners to tell other people what to do?

Gee whiz. All these rules... people should stop trying to facilitate my specatorship, maaaan.

Speaking of spectatorship, my friends and I hauled a truckload of lumber and construction supplies, several hundred gallons of water and a PA system just to build an interactive viewing structure and root beer saloon in the middle of a fucking dust storm, and then spent many afternoons making and serving sixteen kegs of rootbeer to anybody who wandered in. We also built a walled shower for public use and, all the while, maintained Earth Guardian camp standards through all of it because we were on the LNT theme camp tours. One guy in our camp then played piano for another camp until his fingers literally bled.

Most of our camp were playa virgins. It would not be appropriate to refer to me or anybody in the Zaphod camp as "spectators."

-c
"The Red Baron is smart.. He never spends the whole night dancing and drinking root beer.. "-The WWI Flying Ace

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Post by MayorOfFrance » Wed Aug 09, 2006 6:11 pm

ZaphodBurner wrote:
words words words

-c
Jesus Hexagon Christ, with a horse that high, I know YOU won't have problems seeing the burn over the rows of standing people.

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Post by The CO » Wed Aug 09, 2006 6:56 pm

ZaphodBurner wrote: I'm talking about why there's at least five rows of people who DO sit down, and why it's the rational thing to do.
Cites? I can't think of a rational reason to sit in an area that you know is going to be overrun by a surging wave of humans when the Man falls.
I should be able to dump my trash in the shitter, 'cause I paid my ticket, right? Who the fuck are these other burners to tell other people what to do?
I hope my sarcasm meter is on the fritz...
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When I ask how many burns, I mean at BRC.

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Post by geekster » Wed Aug 09, 2006 8:29 pm

Sorry if my tone seemed somewhat snarly, I was beering and another one of those "people standing at the (man/temple/whatever) burn" threads came up and I just snapped.

These threads appear in one forum or another about once every 3.92 weeks. Here's the deal: Your frustration is borne from an expectation of people actually caring about your view of the burn. Some will, some won't. You can attempt to fight it but it will engulf you and screw up your experiance. Or you can let go of that expectation. Standing at the burn is not at all anything like throwing trash in the pots. Tossing trash in the pots could end the event if the pot suckers refuse to suck the pots. People standing is merely an annoyance and only then when one has an expection of an unobstructed view. Let go of the expection, or modify it ... expect an obstructed view and you will not be frustrated or disappointed.

One of the most effective things I have experianced at getting someone to sit down happened by accident two years ago. I was sitting but only to save my legs, didn't much care about the burn at that point ... seen one fire you've seen em all ... some guy standing in front of me happened to glance down, saw me sitting there, I didn't say a word ... just looked back at him and he sat down to allow me to see. It was a gift. Now how could he have given me that gift had he been sitting all along? A while later he stood back up and continued interacting with the group he was with. But rather than being pissed at the time he spent standing, I was thankful for the time he spent sitting.

Then he pissed on the playa and I kicked him in the ankle.*


*not really, but I thought it sounded good.
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Post by Norcal500 » Wed Aug 09, 2006 10:15 pm

[quote="Kinetic IV"]The desert environment is a great crucible for testing equipment, logistics, and so much more. Norcal, part of the lure of this event is the building of the city itself, it's saying we did something that is quite difficult to pull off. And many of the lessons learned were put to good use last year when Burners without Borders went to New Orleans and Mississippi to help them rebuild after Katrina. Talk about taking almost nothing and making it work....that group did just that.

For me the trip to the desert is not about a big party. That's the reward for a lot of planning and work that goes into it. In the process of building things to go out to the desert I've learned how to weld again. I've learned about local businesses that I never knew existed and once some of the owners learned what I was doing they stepped up to help and the exchange of information expands. Then there's the logistics....for some of us we have to build all the creative stuff then find ways to easily transport it, in some cases thousands of miles to the desert and back safely. The US Military has even visited BRC to see how burners do it and valuable lessons were learned by all. In short, if all you see this as is just one big party you're missing the big picture. It has an impact locally, regionally, and nationally. I don't expect any of my rants will change your mind about the event to where you'll make the trip yourself...but hopefully they will let you see there's more to this event than people realize. So much more...lots and lots of good stuff. I hope you ask more questions of us and don't just fire off negative posts...there's so much useful information on the eplaya alone that if you do some digging you might find something that really makes life easier for you. Dig deep, and you will be amazed.[/quote]


It just seems like way too much effort put into a camping trip.

WHy not throw a week long party to rebuild a poor neighboor hood or something that has a physical lasting effect. I get that you take away experiences from it but what takes all year to plan is just torn down at the end of the week and then light a big fire. Why not plan all year to build a town for the needy people and then leave it and let whoever inhabit it.

I just think that what started out as a small festival in sf is now too big for its own good. I have never been to bm but the poster of this thread painted a real clear picture of what its like at the burn.

It kinda sounds like back when I was 17 at lallapalooza and ministry was about to start playing . I was about 20' from the stage. The band walks out and I felt and saw thousands of people surge forward instantly crushing the people up front. Many people instantly paniced. me and some friends knelt down in a tight circle and somehow survived it. The same could happen here but with a rather large fire in the middle the odds of many fatality dramatically increases.

all it takes is a few druken idiots to whip a crowd into frenzy and then you got a problem. don't say I didn't warn ya.......
Down with Burning Man !!!!!!

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Post by Kinetic IV » Wed Aug 09, 2006 10:42 pm

Ahh...but that is where you missed the point. It's more than a camping trip. It's about people. friends. connections. Meeting people I would likely never get the chance to meet elsewhere or if I did with all I have going on it would take years to do. Paramedics. Attorneys. Hollywood prop designers. Costumer designers. Glass blowers. On and on it goes. I get exposure to some pretty cool stuff, lasers, flame throwers, making WiFi work at it's technological limits, pushing the envelope with cellular amplifiers, etc. The stuff I've learned about flame throwers for example has been put to really good use in clearing buckbrush down in Southern Missouri. Playa connections have helped me link up with network engineers that oversee the phone networks in some of the larger hotel casino properties on the Las Vegas strip...those connections 2 years later have been a springboard that has helped me get my Nortel certifications and has transformed my career.

In short one can't put this event in a box, category, or any other description. With 38,000 people coming together and the normal walls of communication, make that barriers are lowered or removed the possibilities are amazing. I've seen it year after year.

And that chemistry comes home in so many ways. Increased involvement in the community? Check. Involvement with Habitat for Humanity and applying skills learned for playa projects? Check. It inspires you, it's not just some PR bullshit spewing from the BM office, the trickle down effect to communities nationwide is very real.

If I take this further right now there are Burning Man participants that are directly, intimately involved in the rediscovery of the Archimedes Palimpsest, the recovery of lost knowledge through the use of the linear accelerator at SLAC to highlight the ancient texts and bring that knowledge back from being essentially lost to the ages. They meet on the playa, but the friendships they've built sustain them long afterwards. Those friendships allow for the exchange of ideas, troubleshooting problems, and if I dare say so in this case along with the help of quite a few others the entire world benefits from it. Is that a stretch? Maybe...it all depends on how we value those lost bits of knowledge that get rediscovered.

I'll try and pull back from my soapbox a bit and acknowledge one point. Excessive growth. It has the potential to be a problem. However the community has risen up as needed to address concerns. Portapotties come to mind, as the population has grown different approaches to waste management have been tried that have cut back on long truck trips to Reno by finding alternative and biologically friendly disposal options. Also some of the various shade structures built for playa use have made their way into refugee camps and storm recovery areas worldwide. If the structures can survive the playa they can handle almost anything thrown at them elsewhere.

Damn I'm running long but again you can't put this into the category of just being another fucking camping trip. That's simply not the reality on the ground, and it's not just my reality it's what thousands of others feel the same way about.

This is an event you really need to see first hand to truly understand. You gotta get boots on the ground, immerse yourself into the experience, don't rely on the biased media to spoonfeed you information about it....you go and make your own impression. Reading legal briefs and witness statements won't get it either. Nor will viewing Lenny Jones's videos. You just have to go and experience it.

I do apologize if I annoyed or offended anyone with this rant but dammit, I've put 4 years of time into it...not as much as many, more than some...but still I love the event and I just can't sit back and let someone shoot it down without putting up a passionate defense. I simply can't do it.
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Post by ZaphodBurner » Thu Aug 10, 2006 8:44 am

MayorOfFrance wrote:
ZaphodBurner wrote:
words words words

-c
Jesus Hexagon Christ, with a horse that high, I know YOU won't have problems seeing the burn over the rows of standing people.
Yeah, it was a pretty tall soapbox. Too bad, though, huh? I spoke my piece.

You don't like my art, make your own.

-c
"The Red Baron is smart.. He never spends the whole night dancing and drinking root beer.. "-The WWI Flying Ace

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Post by ZaphodBurner » Thu Aug 10, 2006 9:06 am

Norcal500 wrote:Why not plan all year to build a town for the needy people and then leave it and let whoever inhabit it.
Check out Burners without Borders. They left right after Katrina for Gulfport and returned in, what, April? They built shelters for homeless firefighters. Burners donated $36,000 on the playa, which is striking considering that there's not typically use for money on the playa, so it's not as common for people to be carrying cash. There are a lot of powerful minds and spirits on the playa. Burning Man is merely their grand expression of being in spite of all. Some people come to watch. That doesn't seem to last.
Norcal500 wrote: It kinda sounds like back when I was 17 at lallapalooza and ministry was about to start playing . I was about 20' from the stage. The band walks out and I felt and saw thousands of people surge forward instantly crushing the people up front. Many people instantly paniced. me and some friends knelt down in a tight circle and somehow survived it. The same could happen here but with a rather large fire in the middle the odds of many fatality dramatically increases.
It probably won't because the line is an entire circumference and not a 50' wide focal point, but that's the kind of crowd panic I was talking about. Perhaps it's another one of those things that you have to experience it understand.

-c
"The Red Baron is smart.. He never spends the whole night dancing and drinking root beer.. "-The WWI Flying Ace

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Post by AntiM » Thu Aug 10, 2006 9:24 am

I know it is a cliche, but the old Harley_D saying applies to Burning Man:

"If I have to explain, you wouldn't understand."

You have to get your feet dusty to get a clue.

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Post by MayorOfFrance » Thu Aug 10, 2006 11:07 am

Norcal500 wrote:I just think that what started out as a small festival in sf is now too big for its own good. I have never been to bm but the poster of this thread painted a real clear picture of what its like at the burn.
First off, the poster of this thread painted HIS view on what the burn is like, an entirely subjective picture, that happens to please you because it fits in with your views of burningman.

Second, what exactly is so appealing about ePlaya for you if you've never burned and have no plans to?

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Post by geekster » Thu Aug 10, 2006 11:41 am

all it takes is a few druken idiots to whip a crowd into frenzy and then you got a problem. don't say I didn't warn ya
I suspect that after 20 burns, the org pretty much knows that already. And there are a bazillionty-seven police and other law enforcement there with real guns too ... and some of them are in uniform.
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Post by Lassen Forge » Thu Aug 10, 2006 12:03 pm

Norcal500 wrote:... I have never been to bm but ...
This says it all.

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Post by helitack » Thu Aug 10, 2006 12:13 pm

I've never been to Burning Man either, WTF was I thinking?

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Post by skygod » Thu Aug 10, 2006 7:46 pm

Bay Bridge Sue wrote:
Norcal500 wrote:... I have never been to bm but ...
This says it all.
Fucking A!
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Post by Cabanasprings » Thu Aug 10, 2006 8:26 pm

all it takes is a few druken idiots to whip a crowd into frenzy and then you got a problem. don't say I didn't warn ya
I look forward to being "whipped into a frenzy."

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Post by Kinetic IV » Thu Aug 10, 2006 8:48 pm

Do the greeters still give spankings upon request or is that a thing of the past?
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Post by geekster » Thu Aug 10, 2006 9:46 pm

Some asshat tried to sue last I heard ... not sure what the status of the greeter spankings are.
It was terrible, your honor ... I was wearing my best purple and green yarn dreads and this guy spanked me. My nipple stud caught in the dread and when a threw my head back to laugh^H^H^H^H^H cry out, it yanked the stud so hard that my left nipple was all red and swollen to the extent that I was forced to wear my shirt for the whole week!
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Post by The CO » Fri Aug 11, 2006 11:26 am

geekster wrote:Some asshat tried to sue...
It was terrible, your honor ... to the extent that I was forced to wear my shirt for the whole week!
Prolly with no pants.
M*A*S*H 4207th: An army of fun.
I don't care what the borg says: feather-wearers will NOT be served in Rosie's Bar.
When I ask how many burns, I mean at BRC.

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Post by capjbadger » Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:12 pm

*Que Pants Cannon* :twisted:
Arrrggg!! Avast ye fucking fluffy bunny shirtcockers! Haul your drunken hairy fat ass out of our sight or prepare to receive a hot buttered hedgehog fired up your aft quarters!

Honey Badger don't care. Honey Badger don't give a shit!

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