Critical Tits photography

[HughMungus]

Also, can't remember if I posted this old thread. It offers some interesting insight into CT and the effect of cameras and spectators.

http://eplaya.burningman.org/viewtopic. ... sc&start=0

[Bob]

Well, we'll just have to disagree on whether you need to post over and over and over again, saying the same thing.

[HughMungus]

Well, we'll just have to disagree on whether you need to post over and over and over again, saying the same thing.

I wouldn't have to if people would read the entire thread before offering their opinion.

[Bob]

Somehow I missed where you showed us YOUR tits.

[HughMungus]

Somehow I missed where you showed us YOUR tits.

I'm too shy. :(

[Flon]

...

And Flon, while I understand that recording the event--or any part of BM might alter it, I would put it to you that since there have been photograhers from day one, removing them would change things immensely.

For the good or the bad? I don't know. What I do know is that altering this, be it all of Burning Man or just CT, is changing it to something that is more exclusive.

And exclusion is often not a good thing.

...and by telling people it's not cool to yell "Hey baby, show me your tits!" and forbidding people to set other people's tents on fire are we not making Burning Man a little bit more exclusive.

And exclusion often IS a good thing.

(hmmm... looking back at this I realize that this could be misinterpreted. I am in no way saying that photographing breasts at CT is equivalent to sexual harassment or arson. I was just indulging in a bit of reductio ad absurdum to point out that avoiding exclusion is not really a good argument for condoning a behavior if the effect of that behavior is not considered.)

...
To ride through Critical Tits and expect no male pervs is like expecting to carry a shoulder full of raw meat through the wilderness and not expect a pack of wolverines to show up and attack you.

<etc.>

It's Burning Man, not paradise. In the real world AND Burning Man there is bullshit to be dealt with.

I am incredulous that there are people out there that expect Burning Man to be ~their~ paradise without complications.

Yes, there's still bullshit at BM, but I think there are a lot of folks who suck dust and fry for a week every summer to be involved in some thing that might be just a bit better than our "real world" experience. If so, one should do your part to make it even a smaller bit better, even if you are doomed to failure. Otherwise it's just a big dusty party and I'm really not interested.

As a physics teacher of mine used to say, "Unless you go ahead and try, you'll never know if you can really screw it up royally."

[errantember]

I've never photographed Critical Tits for many of the reasons described above, but:

My interpretation of the BM photography rules *does* require the consent of *every* recognizable participant, irrespective of the impossibility of doing so, public events, etc. If this rule were followed, most of Burning Man wouldn't get photographed. A looser interpretation seems to carry the day, for better or worse.

Expecting no photography without consent is unrealistic, and no rules change or institutional enforcement can change that. Doesn't mean you have to roll over and take it, either.

People are responsible for their own feelings. I'm not responsible for other peoples' feelings, including how they feel about me potentially taking their picture during CT. Someone's reaction isn't my responsibility, it's their's. If their recognizable picture is later posted on the internet and they lose their job, then I bear some responsibility for that. Some people have lost their children to vengeful exes and relatives after their recognizable picture was taken at a Burn or similar event and then posted on the Internet. There are real consequences to recognizable picture distribution. There are fewer consequences for pictures taken for private use, and this difference is also important.

I understand the need for female-only space and support it. Unfortunately, CT isn't it. In my opinion, a large part of CT's power is BECAUSE it's "BM Public." Women reveal part of themselves that's often hidden, and so do men. Sometimes the hidden part is beautiful to a given set of eyes, other times it's not. Some women I've talked to have expressed empowerment precisely because they were a little intimidated by the rowdier parts of the audience, but did it anyway. It's not like the baddies can do anything beyond jeer or take pictures. If any woman was ever seen being physically assaulted at CT, the perpetrator would get lynched. It might feel uncomfortable, but it's actually about as safe as it gets at BM, and that safety come's mostly from the presence of other women. That's worth recognizing and appreciating.

Expressing displeasure and other forms of social pressure seems would be an empowering choice that might make a difference. So would (even jokingly) getting together a group of 10 or 20 women and deliberately riding directly toward any group of photographers to make them scatter. :) Though that might be considered assault. Another option would be to find a way to kick up enough dust to piss off photographers (good and bad alike) but not enough to hide the event from human eyes. Air cannons aimed at photographers would be fairly harmless, too. Or at least plausibly deniable. :)

Obviously CT means different things to different people. As an artist creating art, you can't dictate how people will interpret it. For some people, CT is a massive show of tits. You can't decide it's not for someone else, irrespective of the original intentions. Part of art's beauty is that it means different things to different people.

If someone is taking pictures of only your breasts, it probably isn't "recognizable." While this might well be against the spirit of the BM rules, it isn't against the letter. My Foot's Eye View of Burning Man 2006 was done partially to bring that fine point to light. Do you need someone's permission to take a picture of them if it isn't recognizable?

http://www.footseye.com

In my experience, people's reaction to having their picture taken generally has more to do with the attitude and body language of the photographer than it does the subject. If I feel good about a picture I'm taking, very few people object. If I feel guilty about the same picture, people often react badly. For me this transates into a personal ethic that it's my goal to take pictures that I think contribute somehow to the world in general. When I do that, I feel good about what I'm doing, whether it's taking a picture of a bird or a picture of a thousand topless women making a statement. I find that inner concience a good guide to whether I ask permission or not. At Burning Man I found that I felt guilty when taking recognizable pictures of people without their permission. After that, I started asking in just about all cases, and I felt a lot better. The attitude of the photographer also comes across in the picture, too. It's kind of a Zen thing. If the picture was taken with creepy intent, it's often obvious. If there is an exceptionally good recognizable candid shot at Burning Man where I can't or won't ask the person's permission, I either don't publicize it or I alter it to protect their identity.

As a final note on enjoying Critical Tits, volunteering to body paint beforehand is a great way to participate. If you make it clear that you respect people's boundaries and are obviously adding postive energy to the experience, you will get more takers than you have time to paint. Because there's room for confusion, I think I'm actually going to bring a little sign with me this year that says something like:

-------------

Body Painting for Critical Tits

I only want a fun, positive experience.

I'll try to paint whatever you want, or just do something freestyle.

I will respect whatever boundaries you wish.

It will be obvious that doing this is a huge turn-on for me. :) Everyone I paint is beautiful and sexy, before and after. I hope you find my excitement positive and supportive. My enjoyment will be limited to what I'm seeing and the touching necessary to paint you, unless you communicate otherwise. You may choose to do whatever you want with this information, including sharing the charge, ignoring it, or being painted by someone else.

I can take your picture if you like, but only if you ask. I like to have the pictures of my work and the memories that go with them. You may choose whether the pictures are posted publicly or will remain only in my private collection. They will not be used for any commercial purposes. If you give me a contact e-mail address, I will do my damnest to get the pictures to you. All e-mail addresses are deleted after this is done.

---------------
It occurs to me that one good remedy to the Unwanted Photographer Syndrome would be a whole slew of different "No photographs asshole!" body art. It could range from angry to beautiful and everywhere in between. The people in charge of Critical Tits might want to get the word out in advance, so that people could make stencils, stamps, etc. That would be pretty damning in a photograph!

[spectabillis]

My interpretation of the BM photography rules *does* require the consent of *every* recognizable participant..

which rules are you referring to?

[HughMungus]

People are responsible for their own feelings. I'm not responsible for other peoples' feelings, including how they feel about me potentially taking their picture during CT. Someone's reaction isn't my responsibility, it's their's. If their recognizable picture is later posted on the internet and they lose their job, then I bear some responsibility for that. Some people have lost their children to vengeful exes and relatives after their recognizable picture was taken at a Burn or similar event and then posted on the Internet. There are real consequences to recognizable picture distribution. There are fewer consequences for pictures taken for private use, and this difference is also important.

So they have to suffer the consequences of your ACTIONS but their REACTIONS are not your responsibility. I can take your picture at Jiffy Lube doing whatever it is you're doing, and that's OK, but if you destroy my camera and film, that's not OK? This makes absolutely no sense.

I understand the need for female-only space and support it. Unfortunately, CT isn't it. In my opinion

Yes, in your opinion.

[Dr. Pyro]

Don't take this the wrong way errentember, but a 13+ paragraph tirade can be shortened to two or three readable paragraphs. You lost me after about the five hundredth word somewhere in the third paragraph.

[Almost]

So are we suppossed to watch the ride? or Not?

I've read this whole topic and I'm not sure. It seems like if you just want to watch to see boobies that's bad and you shouldn't watch, as that's not the point of the ride.

So do you watch and not look at the boobies? That would sort of make the riding topless pointless then, as no one would be looking at the boobies and they might as well ride fully clothed in Parka's.

Or do we watch but pretend like we're not occaisonally thinking "wow she has nice tits?"

and for the record this question's being asked by a straight male and female alike, we're both confused.

[HughMungus]

So are we suppossed to watch the ride? or Not?

I've read this whole topic and I'm not sure. It seems like if you just want to watch to see boobies that's bad and you shouldn't watch, as that's not the point of the ride.

So do you watch and not look at the boobies? That would sort of make the riding topless pointless then, as no one would be looking at the boobies and they might as well ride fully clothed in Parka's.

Or do we watch but pretend like we're not occaisonally thinking "wow she has nice tits?"

and for the record this question's being asked by a straight male and female alike, we're both confused.

The first question to ask yourself is: "What is the purpose of CT?" Therein lies your answer.

[EvilDustBooger]

I say we lay down our cameras and don our critical regalia...

[mdmf007]

IN re-reading my posts here it has become apparent I am becoming a cynic.
CT is about______ I say ask before you take photos, and dont act like you just got out of high school. Tits are cool and all but way overrated, I say let the thread die.

On the other hand if the chicks on bikes didnt want you looking attheir tits , they'd have shirts or bikinis on, and wouldnt call it a parade

So who the hell knows.

later all - This post is a waste of your reading time. Move on.

[Almost]

[quote="HughMungus"]
The first question to ask yourself is: "What is the purpose of CT?" Therein lies your answer.[/quote]

And like everything at Burningman the answer to that is "It means something different to each person"

[hunter S]

Ya know in four years I've never seen CT, wrong place wrong time? it's just a part of the camping trip! If taking pictures of this parade is an issue why not raise a fuss about taking pictures of all BM happenings?

Want to talk "future, hopes & fears" in the future CT will be sun block clothing only! Pictures will be via computer chip implant, ex-ray spec's!

If some one could please define the whole CT meaning, origin, purpose maybe Evan the real origin I would love to know the true history.

[HughMungus]

The first question to ask yourself is: "What is the purpose of CT?" Therein lies your answer.

And like everything at Burningman the answer to that is "It means something different to each person"

Sorry. I thought you knew I meant "...to the participants of CT." That's the only opinion that matters here.

[helitack]

Like a bad fuckin dream. It won't quit. I want Hugh to load my film in my second camera while I photograph CT. OK big boy?

[errantember]

From the Burning Man website:

"You must ask for permission before photographing or filming any individual participant who might be recognizable. Crowd shots are exempt except when the artist, performer, and majority of participants request no cameras or filming. If you are planning to show the imagery to anyone other than your friends and family, you must obtain a written release from anyone you photograph, film or otherwise record. "

"If any participant asks you to stop filming, you must stop immediately. If you continue to photograph or film, you face the possibility of being escorted from the event."

For Critical Tits, this is pretty unhelpful. "Crowd Shots are exempt," but not if the majority of people ask not to be filmed. How would this be established for CT? "If a participant asks you to stop filming" is ambigous, too, since a) it initially states only "filming", which in the context of this text seems to mean motion video, not photographs. Eveen if it did apply to photos, if the person next to the person who asked you to photograph them says to stop filming, then what do you do?
As to my comment about not being responsible for how someone feels about the fact that I might be taking their picture at CT, I have a general belief that it's people's responsibility to own their own feelings. When one says something like "Person x made me feel this way" they are claiming someone else is forcing something on them and disempowering themselves. While involuntary photography of CT might trigger negative emotions in some of the participants, it's their choice how to feel about and what action to take. They could choose to believe someone else is forcing them to feel bad, but that doesn't make it true. They could decide to confront the person to create a more satisfactory environment, they could decide to not ride because they don't want to deal with their feelings, they could decide to get angry trash someone's camera with a watergun. They could also decide that however infantile some men's reactions are to so many exposed female chests might be, it's all a tribute to how powerful and beautiful women and their breasts are, and feel good about it all. A camera in somone's hand does give the photographer certain powers, but forcing someone to feel a certain way isn't one of them.
Another idea would be for some women to dress up like apes or dogs or some other negative male stereotype and run around with enormous, cartoonish cameras miming their interpretation of how base and idiot the yahoos are being. :)
I'm liking the idea of photographing the yahoos this year. I may go to CT just to do that.

[SED]

It's gotta be about control. Props to whoever places these lyrics:

"If you look close you can see my tits
Cuz I want you to but don't want you to know that I do."

[mdmf007]

Candy Slice Recording Session

Phil Malone ... John Belushi
Justin ... Eric Idle
Backup Singer #1 ... Laraine Newman
Backup Singer #2 ... Jane Curtin
Jerry Eldini ... Bill Murray
Candy Slice ... Gilda Radner

Backup Singers: [sing]
If you look close - you can see my tits,
'Cause i want you to, but don't want you to know I do
If you look close - you can see my tits,
'Cause I want you to, but don't want you to know that I dooooooo

[b]Its an SNL skit. later[/b]

[SED]

Props.

[lurker]

Sorry. I thought you knew I meant "...to the participants of CT." That's the only opinion that matters here.

And, fortunately, a good chunk of them have explicitly stated that they disagree with the interpretation of CT set upon them by HughMungus.

Un fortunately, that doesn't seem to matter to HughMumgus, and the only opinion that he respects are the ones that agree with his.

The riders in CT have never asked that crowd shots be banned. I think that says it all, no?

[The CO]

I'll try to paint whatever you want, or just do something freestyle.

Hmm... What is the ruling if I bust out a canvas and paint CT as it rides by? Or do pencil/charcoal sketching? Will I be deemed a pervert frat boy?

[SED]

You'll be deemed a weirdo, all right.

[ScoutDG]

Last year was my 1st at Burning Man. I carried around my digital camera, and when thousands of women with naked (or beautifully decorated) breasts rode by me, I took lots of pictures of them doing it. I was reassured that this must be OK because there were LOTS of other people (mostly men) also taking pictures. We weren't hiding in the bushes -- there aren't any. My understanding was this is OK, because this was the kind of public event that gets photographed.

I also noticed that some women smiled at me as I took their picture, and some ignored me.

About half way through the parade, one rider was yelling "Get permission before taking pictures", which gave me pause. Partly, I was just puzzled by her statement. This is a parade. Clearly it isn't possible to have discussions with the parading women about whether it's OK to take their pictures. I did not take her picture.

So, here are my points:

#1 -- Enforcing any 'no photos' rule for CT would take a HUGE effort, and it ain't happening. All the riders should expect they'll be photographed -- probably hundreds of times. If they don't want that, don't ride. This is important because people pretending that there's some rule against the photography might fool someone who does not want to be photographed into thinking there'll be some protection against that.

#2 -- CT is about thousands of women parading publicly across the playa with naked breasts. The founders may have had some more spiritual purpose in starting it, and some of the participants may share that feeling, but the event now is itself, with participants free to feel about it however they want. If there's a desire for a private parade of naked breasts, surely it would be possible to get the Burning Man staff to arrange for them to go parading out into the desert where nobody could see or photograph them. (Or, someone who wanted that could just skip the public parade and go to the protected party.)

#3 -- In the spirit of Burning Man, it must be OK for there to be a parade in which some participants get to validate the idea that breasts are so good that there is nothing wrong with letting them be publicly photographed.

[SED]

Take my picture and I'll slit yer fucking throat.

[Lady V]

Scout, please read the entire thread.

[Lady V]

And as I heard from someone who should know (although of course I could be wrong!), this year the afterparty is Very Changed... men will be there without any fence.

[ScoutDG]

Scout, please read the entire thread.

\

Hmmm. I thought I did, although may have missed a couple of pages in the middle. Not sure which part you wanted me to focus on. And, I'm not sure I really added much, if anything. However, your reply about the party was news worth getting.