No Greywater on Playa?

Marmot · Post by **Marmot** » Wed Aug 23, 2006 3:26 pm

"Our permit from BLM does NOT allow us to dump grey water directly onto the playa. Therefore all grey water must be collected."
--http://www.burningman.com/preparation/e ... water.html

Does any one else find this ridiculous almost to the point of insanity?

Give me a break. This is going too far.

Zona_the_stona · Post by **Zona_the_stona** » Wed Aug 23, 2006 3:42 pm

It probably wouldn’t be a problem if it was just a few campers.. this event will draw more than a "few" campers though...

I suppose if thats what needs to be done to keep the event going then I can live by that.. doesn't seem to unreasonable to me.

Cabanasprings · Post by **Cabanasprings** » Wed Aug 23, 2006 4:15 pm

I personally don't want to walk through your dirty dishwater and most importantly random puddles of water will alter the playa.

Don't like, don't go - or - no, I don't find it ridiculous

diane o'thirst · Post by **diane o'thirst** » Wed Aug 23, 2006 4:35 pm

No greywater on the Playa has been the rule for several years now. It means you have to build an evap pond. Here's a quick and easy one:

Get a dark tarp or pondliner, about 2' square per person using it.
Get four 2x4s to frame the sides.
Staple tarp to the 2x4s.
Place a plastic-lined box in the middle of the tarp and a fountain pump in the box. Can be a small one, larger ones work better. Run it off an inverter and battery.
Pour your greywater INTO THE PLASTIC-LINED BOX, *not* on the tarp. Turn the fountain pump on and it will spray the greywater onto the tarp; the sun will evaporate the water quickly, in a matter of minutes. Continue to run the pump until you're out of water. Repeat as needed. At the end of the week, you should have a yucky dark tarp and no greywater; just roll it up and wash it off at home, and use it again next year.

If you don't have a plastic-lined wooden box, you can collect your greywater in a gardener's sprayer and spray that onto the tarp. You want a fine mist or droplets, not gobs and certainly NO standing water. That doesn't work.

Cabanasprings · Post by **Cabanasprings** » Wed Aug 23, 2006 4:36 pm

DOT - that's wayyyy too much work.

Real Burners drink their greywater as mixers!

Badger · Post by **Badger** » Wed Aug 23, 2006 4:36 pm

MArmot,

On the face of it I can see where you might find the absurdity in this.

Zona's point following yours is a good one though. Given the increasing number of people attending the event the issue of grey water dumping on the playa has become a proble. Also, 'grey water' is a very broad catagorization for something that comes about by many degrees. BLM in their hardheaded, inflexible way probably considers spitting out your toothpaste to be grey water and I guess it really is. On the other end of things you have entire camps draining what might best be considered a Superfund sludge that borders on offal.

I stayed for a week post-event last year and went up the following weekend for cleanup and I have to say that some of the tossings made for a real nasty mess on the playa. Water with soggy toilet paper in it dried on the playa and made for a foul looking, skanky smelling mess two weeks after everyone has gone home. BLM sees this and has a fit and follows up by tightening the reins even further when it becomes obvious to them that an ever increasing number of people are not taking the Leave No Trace philosophy seriously so they do the next best thing. They coerce by incorporating it into the permit stipulations. So yeh, it sucks that yet another layer of bureaucracy gets added to the event but equally as bad are the asshats that think they have license to just literally dump their shit on the playa nd leave. Don't look for things to get any better in the future.

ScoutDG · Post by **ScoutDG** » Wed Aug 23, 2006 5:14 pm

Especially if you arrive early, and look out at the vast, barren, open space, the rule indeed suggests mindless, bureaucratic oppresion, worthy of violating for its own sake. Here are a few countervailing thoughts:

#1 -- it's not our rule, it's imposed by BLM. There's some perception or paranoia that BLM, especially under Republican administration, would like a way to throw us out of the playa. They might do that anyway, but at least we can make them work for it.

#2 -- with all the focus on "leave no trace", clearly there's lots for the clean-up crews to clean up after the event anyway. Predicting group behavior is difficult, but my take is that if the rule were "don't leave much of a mess" the mess would be a lot worse.

#3 -- Apparently we're planning to stay at the same location on the playa yearly. Without the "no greywater" rule, the effect of the effluent would be cumulative. I don't imagine we could use enough toothpaste to make a difference, but with soapy dishwater, pee, sour milk, the leftovers people would decide is OK to bury, eventually there would start to be patches of strangeness where people wouldn't want to camp. I'd have assumed that the winter rains would renew the playa each year, but the reports of how durable "burn scars" are convinces me otherwise.

Post by **AntiM** » Wed Aug 23, 2006 6:34 pm

Simplest evap pan: black plastic concrete mixing pan, plus a gallon jug to haul out the sludge which didn't dry up.

I don't even pee in my backyard anymore.

Marmot · Post by **Marmot** » Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:58 pm

I think there is a big difference between a camp of 50 running showers over the same ground for a week, and a camp of say 8 distributing general purpose grey water.

So y'all are telling me you walk over to the greywater evap tarp when you brush your teeth, and spit onto it? That you need to stand on the evap tarp while you take your 1.5 gal. sunshower 2 or 3 times over the course of the week?

Post by **Eric** » Wed Aug 23, 2006 10:57 pm

Marmot wrote:So y'all are telling me you walk over to the greywater evap tarp when you brush your teeth, and spit onto it? That you need to stand on the evap tarp while you take your 1.5 gal. sunshower 2 or 3 times over the course of the week?

Why look, you've earned a Gold Star for finally getting it. Or Not.

I'm not really sure what part of NO GREY WATER ON THE PLAYA you're not understanding. You seem to think your little camp of 8 people lives in a different dimension than the other 36, 992 people out on that little piece of playa. Do you know what a disgusting septic tank of muck all of them living by your rules would cause? And have you ever experienced wet playa? Not mud- sticky muck.

If you're so all fired up that you know better than everyone else who goes or even those people who *gasp* put on the event, by all means, be a typical self-entitled urbanite and do whatever you want. Don't be surprised when you get booted from the event, with no refund, when you can't follow a plain english requirement of attending.

If you do have a very small amount of grey water, and you bothered to read the survival guide or subscribe to Jack Rabbit Speaks, you would see the following:

NEVER LET IT HIT THE GROUND (INCLUDING GREY WATER)

and:

How will you dispose of your grey water from your kitchen and shower?
Our permit from BLM does NOT allow us to dump grey water directly on the
playa.
- Camps can collect grey water and take it to one of the RV dump
stations along Interstate 80 after the event.
- If you want to construct an evaporation pond, check out the web site:
http://www.burningman.com/preparation/e ... water.html

followed by:

Or if you're in a very small camp, with minimal dish and body-washing
water, you might choose to treat your grey water: pour it through a
filter (like a paint sieve), disinfect it with bleach then, since it is
treated, sprinkle it on your street to keep down dust.

If you find yourself unable to follow the same rules that everyone else does, whether we like them or not, do us all a favor and stay home.

And if you find my post to be unreasonably agressive, wait until the BLM searches your camp because they noticed leaking water, and discovers....well, anything you don't want them to. (and, yes, they can & do use water on the playa as an excuse to search camps)

Post by **AntiM** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 6:26 am

So y'all are telling me you walk over to the greywater evap tarp when you brush your teeth, and spit onto it?

Amazingly, I'd never considered doing it any other way. What? Spit it on the dry dusty ground to make nasty little lumps all around camp? Euw.

Marmot · Post by **Marmot** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 8:49 am

Oh calm down everybody. I didn't say we wouldn't try to find a way to comply. If the BMORG says that the BLM says that it is important, then we will work out something. Probably one of the simple solutions thoughtfully highlighted here.

So pardon my confessional, apparently I am the only one to succumb to spitting a mouthful of highly diluted toothpaste water on to the ground.

We all have our temptations. Reality Check complete.

phil · Post by **phil** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 10:11 am

Hi, marmot,

From my point of view a rant is a good thing now and then, so go for it.

As for all the people daintily picking their ways on the playa in fear of stepping in something, I have only humor. I was raised on a farm. Cows take huge dumps wherever they're standing, and their stalls are awash in amazing amounts of urine while you're trying to milk them. The chicken yard was full of bird dood bombs that are worse to step in barefoot than cow manure.

Spit? Wait'll you're around someone who dips snuff or chews tobacco.

It's really great to read posts by all the people who dutifully follow all the rules and expect everyone else to, as well. See you all on the playa!

Cabanasprings · Post by **Cabanasprings** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 10:45 am

I think it's a matter of treating people the way that you want to be treated more than it is fact of following the rules.

I don't "not drive drunk" because it is the law. I don't drive drunk because it's not safe for me or for you.

I don't spit my toothpaste water on the playa because I don't want to endure other's dirty mouth water. It's not jsut a rule, it's common sense.

If more people used common sense, there would be fewer rules.

phil · Post by **phil** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 11:03 am

If more people used common sense

I think this board proves there is no common sense.

:-> No, seriously.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 11:23 am

phil wrote:
If more people used common sense
I think this board proves there is no common sense.

:-> No, seriously.

All too often "Common Sence" means "Stuff I believe that everyone else should believe too."

Childrearing advise for instance. Typically, once an arguement devolves into calls for "common sence" it's time to get out.

On the other hand, just think of the grey water--whatever form--you put on the playa multiplied by 35,000 or 40,000 and it adds up to acre feet! (No sites, a little bit of hyperbole.)

We are garbage producing animals. The fact that there's >6 BILLION of us means that the more care we take the better.

Cabanasprings · Post by **Cabanasprings** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 11:27 am

I think this board proves there is no common sense.

:-> No, seriously.

I am not prepared to argue that point!

skygod · Post by **skygod** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 11:39 am

AntiM wrote: I don't even pee in my backyard anymore.

WAAAAHAHAHAHA

Seriously though, playa is not like ordinary ground. I mean its so white and blank greywater shows up like spitting on a blank canvas.

Cabanasprings · Post by **Cabanasprings** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 11:43 am

All too often "Common Sence" means "Stuff I believe that everyone else should believe too."

Childrearing advise for instance. Typically, once an arguement devolves into calls for "common sence" it's time to get out.

By definition the word common refers to prevelant or shared. So common sense is more defined than putting your opinion on someone else. Whether you should spank your child is debatable. Beating them to death is not using common sense.

"Stuff I believe that everyone else should believe too." That is an opinion or a belief. I agree that there is no universal definition of common sense but we are all capable of using "it."

Cabanasprings · Post by **Cabanasprings** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 11:43 am

BTW - I support thread drift!

Hoolie · Post by **Hoolie** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 11:51 am

Managing graywater for a small camp isn't that difficult and is probably not worth getting upset about. All you need it a little preparation.

In my case, I constructed a shower which sits in an evap pond. As the shower gets used, the water disperses out into the pond and evaporates pretty quickly as long as the water doesn't get too deep. All other graywater (dishwater/toothpaste) I dump into 5-gallon buckets with lids which get hauled away. By the way, you can really see how nasty graywater looks when you collect it in white buckets. I'm glad it's not getting dumped onto the playa along with that of 40,000 other people. Think of BRC as what it is: a city (albeit a temporary one). One of the priorities in city planning is waste-management, and BRC is no exception.

Perhaps in the tradition of "radical self-reliance" you could find some enjoyment in the problem-solving process of managing your graywater. As an example, one burner came up with a rather ingenious evaporator which he has now shared with the community. Here is someone who not only accepted the challenge, but embraced it. That's they way to go.

Marmot · Post by **Marmot** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 12:55 pm

While I'd like to think we could pull together an elegant evap solution, we barely know what an inverter is. So we'll lean toward water cans, garden sprayers, tarps, bleach, strainers, cheese cloth and using the elaborate greywater reclamation facilities of the other 36, 992 Fremen-like campers who will all be following the rules to the letter, according to Mr. Eric. Perhaps in future years, ticket purchases can be accompanied with an application to attend that must be approved by Burnier Than Thou folks like him. And yes Mr. Eric, I do find your post to be well over the line of "unreasonably agressive".

I rant, but make no mistake, we do take this seriously

Post by **Eric** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 7:21 pm

Darlin', I am far from "Burnier than thou", and more jaded than you would expect, but when I read your initial posts in this thread and interpret them as "these rules are too stupid" (re-read your first post) and "why are you all so stupid that you follow the rules" (re-read your second post, esp. the spitting comment), I'm gonna loose it.

You sounded like a stereotype weekender yahoo coming out to party with no respect at all for the completely different environment the event takes place in, and like your needs meant more than the communities. In this case if enough people mess up, the communtity ends up not having a place to meet- we don't follow BLM rules, BLM doesn't permit the event.

I don't take back a word.
However, you really don't need to call me "Mr."- either "Eric", "ShutterSlut" or "Asshole" work fine, depending on your mood.

By the way; all the other "Fremen-like" campers (I can't figure out if this was intended as a compliment or an insult) don't follow the rules to the letter, and they're the ones who keep making the BLM reconsider the event.

Good lord, I sound like Badger. I'm having a drink.

brayandtrill · Post by **brayandtrill** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 9:55 am

My hubby and I really don't have much graywater because of how we camp (no real dishes or showers). Small stuff like toothpase we spit straight into our trash bags. It's so little that the heat of the day ends up evaporating most of it anyway...and the rest is just trash to haul home.

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 3:15 pm

brayandtrill wrote:My hubby and I really don't have much graywater because of how we camp (no real dishes or showers). Small stuff like toothpase we spit straight into our trash bags. It's so little that the heat of the day ends up evaporating most of it anyway...and the rest is just trash to haul home.

/
Now now don't be hualing your trash home.....Throw it out along the road like the other good folks.

s5 · Post by s5 » Tue Sep 05, 2006 8:23 pm

Ah, how I love watching people dump out their evaporation ponds onto the playa just before leaving the event. If you're going to be gross and dump out all your nasty swill, why keep the pond all week? I just don't get it.

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 7:05 am

s5 wrote:Ah, how I love watching people dump out their evaporation ponds onto the playa just before leaving the event. If you're going to be gross and dump out all your nasty swill, why keep the pond all week? I just don't get it.

/
Been asking the saMe ¿ for a couple of years. I have a small camp and carry the grey water home. Some thing i will try this year at home. Building a solar oven to leak the water through. into a pond with a clear cover.

Zona_the_stona · Post by **Zona_the_stona** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 9:12 am

I made a simple evaporation pond and it worked great! We didn't want to haul out greywater so we stopped using our shower on saturday.. we just rinsed off a few things and washed a few dishes on saturday. I was sitting at my camp on Saturday night when some guy came over with a light and a big bucket of dirty dishwater. I caught him in the act of trying to dump his greywater in MY evap pond... luckily I caught him before he was able to dump his dirty water on us. I think I'm going to made a new design next year. maybe I can make a fence or boarder around the evap pond and still let the sun hit it so it will work properly.. I got a year to start planning.

Post by **AntiM** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 5:37 pm

Fortunately we didn't have much in the way of greywater in our evap pond on Wednesday; the high winds flipped it over. Uh, oops. Blush. Next year the design will include either stakes/rabar on the edge or a Big Fucking Rock to hold it down.

Davoid · Post by **Davoid** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 1:22 am

Anti M, don't bring the ol' BFR. Affects your gas mileage to the point of having Big Oil write "for a good time call Anti M" in their corporate bathroom stalls. As environmentally unfriendly as dumped grey water. Try something heavy that you're already bringing. Like, I dunno, your cooler.

With mine, I just tell people "Yep, Alex Grey rinsed his brushes in it." At only $5 a pint, it practically flies off the tent shelves.

No Greywater on Playa?

No Greywater on Playa?

getting out the Idiot Stick