Children at Burning Man

Deb Harris · Post by **Deb Harris** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 6:08 pm

Each year there are more and more children at Burning Man. Last night a 10 year old was missing (hopefully he was found safe). I understand families wanting to share their experience with they children however I don't feel BM is a place for children. It's difficult for adults to handle the elements how do you think kids are able to handle it. I have a family that includes young children and there is no way they would survive. Maybe we ought to find out from the medical crew on the number of children they see each day for dehydration or other medical problems caused by the playa. I don't want to offend anyone however I feel strongly that Burning Man put an age limit on participant. I think 17 and older is fair.

primate · Post by **primate** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 10:48 pm

Hear, Hear.
They don't allow Children in strip clubs or bars and they shouldn't allow them at b-man.

X-topher · Post by **X-topher** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 8:49 am

WOW I can't believe I am hearing this. My wife and I brought our 9yo son this year and it was the best experience he ever had. As far as losing kids and dehydration goes, I think that is just bad parenting and that happen everywhere. I am ashamed of primate for comparing BM to a strip club. If you think that people shedding their inhibitions and walking around naked is the same as a bunch of drunks sticking dollar bills in strippers g-strings than I know that my son has better grip on the meaning of Burning Man than you do. My son was accepted and adored wherever he went, the Death Guild even let him sit in the pants cannon- I’ve never sat in the pants cannon! He learned more about community there than any school will ever teach him and he can’t wait to go back next year. I told him that we can have one big vacation next year and chose BM over Disney World. I am so sorry for you who think that BM is an adult entertainment playground, you are missing the point altogether.

Bin Noddin · Post by **Bin Noddin** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 10:19 am

Glad you had a wonderful experience with your son, X-topher. Opinions about kids at BM seem mostly favorable, but everyone, and most especially the parents, have to recognize the special attention needed. The topic has been kicked around quite a bit:
http://eplaya.burningman.org/viewtopic. ... sc&start=0
and
http://eplaya.burningman.org/viewtopic. ... dren+playa

Deb Harris · Post by **Deb Harris** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 11:49 am

I agree that sharing the experience with your children is GREAT. I have shared the experiece with my children for the past 7 years. HOWEVER - my children were over the age of 21 their first year. At that age they can make decisions regarding how much water to drink, being out in the dust, going nude, etc. There are exceptions to everything and some parents are very responsible. It's the parents that aren't that I worry about. Over the past couple of years the number of children has grown.

wrong trousers · Post by **wrong trousers** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 12:21 pm

Larry Harvey brought his own son to the very first burn back in the day, & ever after. Wasn't he 2? Larry has stated again & again that Burning Man has and always will be, a family friendly event.

It is an awesome learning experience for the kids (& the families as a whole). Stop judging, leave the parenting to the parents.

One · Post by **One** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 2:02 pm

Well to those who have brought your children to Burning Man. Those such as x-topher, I am glad they had a safe and positive exsperince. However, might I pose something to consider. I am sure we all agree here that BM is a very special place indeed. Yet As I understand it Bm has also evolved far from it's roots. Which is inevitible as well as both good and bad. In short there is a lot of BULLSHIT there just as much as there is beauty. Now it is my humble and personal opinion that to truly harvest the juciest of fruits from this barren wasteland one must have context to juxstapose this uniuqe world against. In other words without life exsperince in are everyday lives there is not much to compare and contrast this with in order to obtain a proper understanding of such an exsperince. Children have not yet accumulated this kind of life exsperince. While we all wish life could always be this way. It is not that way and that is the fact for now. We must survive and function in this dreary world. By bringing your children to BM you just might be unwittigly teaching them that Hedonistic enibreation and debacherous drug induced states are a perfectly exceptable escape from everyday reality. When rather we should be teaching them to harvest there power and creativity from grounding and sober clear minds. And only from this place can we truly appreciate the different perspective that comes from drastically changing your element as well as your mind state. I'll tell that I was aware of something spirtual and great and far beyond me as well were others. However the majority of participants were not. So I ask you, is it fair to bring such an intense exsperince to a child without proper context. By all means PLEASE leave your children home for them if not for you. But please bring a peice of BM home with you and share it with your children. In proper context it will help them grow.
Sincerly ONE

olivia · Post by **olivia** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 2:34 pm

Next let's ban old people, and disabled people too!

Oh wait. Let's not.

Badger · Post by **Badger** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 4:15 pm

By bringing your children to BM you just might be unwittigly teaching them that Hedonistic enibreation and debacherous drug induced states are a perfectly exceptable escape from everyday reality.

That might very well be the case there One - especially if you view the event through such selective, myopic lenses. I can't imagine how a child could do anything else other than take a parent's lead in viewing the event in the same way. Fortunately, a good number of parents with small children elect to focus positively on the event in a way that stimulates their kids and fires their imagination in a positive way.

One · Post by **One** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 5:01 pm

Well Olivia I never said the word ban just WISE judgment. Interesting badger, i would be interested in knowing your deffinition of "selective and myopic lenses" in reference to my exsperince or perspective or better yet your assumtion there of. I agree with what you saying except on the point that parents are the only teachers in life. Children mimic everything in there enviorment, other children animals, parents, adults, video games, movies, fantasy, escapism, magazines models. and all I am suggesting is that maybe YOU are not the all powerful leader you precieve your self to be. Or that you are not the only leader. BM is in my opinion way to much stimulation to sift through with out context ( being life exsperince ). Yin and Yang exsits in everything if you can not see both than your missing half the picture. You can easily create that type of creativitly and spirituality and home you don't need BM to do it.

olivia · Post by **olivia** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 5:47 pm

One wrote:Well Olivia I never said the word ban just WISE judgment.

My response was aimed at the original poster, not you.

VikingNomad · Post by **VikingNomad** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 11:25 pm

There is a formula for kids at Burning Man. It begins and ends with good parenting regardless of age. Then, it depends on the kid. Some 7 year olds can handle it better than some 17 year olds. And, you don't need to bring your kids to every tent for things that aren't PG rated. Scout it out first, then take the kids back. There is plenty of fun stuff that isn't 'strip club' like. The core is good parenting. I've been a burner since '94 and gone to lots of other events. Whether it's a reggae festival, Burning Man, or your local mall, parents need to be held responsible for paying attention to their children. I think parents who lose their kids, let them get dehydrated, or show neglect on the playa should be escorted out by the Black Rock Rangers. Not only for the well being of children whose parents can't or don't take care of their kids in that environment, but also the event itself. The last thing we need is for Burning Man to be associated with a severe injury like burns, or the death of a child due to poor parenting.

efnord · Post by **efnord** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 3:20 am

... that if any child is found unattended or reported lost, that child's guardian be asked to leave the event. Personally, if you define "child" as 12 or under, COPA-style, that makes fine sense to me.

The lowest point of my event this year was helping two unattended kids, perhaps 8 and 10, get back to their camp.

Dork · Post by **Dork** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 9:03 am

My camp had a bunch of trampolines, and as a result many kids found us. They were nearly always accompanied by a parent and seemed to be among the most mature and well-balanced children I've met. Children don't have a problem being exposed to weird things. Parents are the ones who have the potential to react badly and freak out.

The way I see it kids will get exposed to nudity, drugs, alcohol, sexuality, and the rest at some point. If it happens in a positive environment where it can be discussed rationally it can prepare them for later in life. If they don't see it at BM, they'll see it on the internet, through friends, or through predators and they won't have the context to understand it.

The only problem children represent is the possibility they may be accompanied by an irresponsible parent.

yojessimac · Post by **yojessimac** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 9:39 am

[quote="VikingNomad"]There is a formula for kids at Burning Man. It begins and ends with good parenting regardless of age. Then, it depends on the kid. [/quote]

I completely agree with you here. If the kid is mature enough and the parent is [b]RESPONSIBLE[/b] enough, it does not matter the age.

However, I was in a rather large, crowded and loud dome one night and experienced something which I found quite disturbing. Before I get into this, let me state that I do not like kids, I don't have to, and that's just me.
So in this dome, there was a 2 year old in a carriage with one of the parents dancing around inside this high decibal location. A guy was near the baby stopping passerbys and saying " look at this angel, a heavensent". Some may agree that a 2 year old is cute, but not everyone, and certainly not me- but don't get me wrong, I think people of all kinds are beautiful. When the guy said his little "god's angel" spiel to me, I let him have it. I told him I think it's disgusting to bring a 2 year old into a place like that, and that I really didn't like kids and don't care how fucking precious this little "angel" may be.
If you bring your kid, be [b]RESPONSIBLE[/b]. Don't blow the their eardrums out before they are even fully developed, and don't assume that others care that there is a godsent in the room.

Other than that, I had an amzaing and unbelievable experience this year at BM...Thanks to everyone who helped contribute to that! Luv you all!

brayandtrill · Post by **brayandtrill** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 12:56 pm

Yojessimac, we saw that too and were equally disturbed. This is a true example of selfishness and poor parenting. If it is so important to a parent to party it up, leave the children at home. Some people just do not have the self restraint and good judgement to protect their children.
It really makes me lean towards the opinion of having no children at BM.

dj_john69 · Post by **dj_john69** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 4:40 pm

Dork wrote:My camp had a bunch of trampolines, and as a result many kids found us. They were nearly always accompanied by a parent and seemed to be among the most mature and well-balanced children I've met. Children don't have a problem being exposed to weird things. Parents are the ones who have the potential to react badly and freak out.

The way I see it kids will get exposed to nudity, drugs, alcohol, sexuality, and the rest at some point. If it happens in a positive environment where it can be discussed rationally it can prepare them for later in life. If they don't see it at BM, they'll see it on the internet, through friends, or through predators and they won't have the context to understand it.

The only problem children represent is the possibility they may be accompanied by an irresponsible parent.

I too had many trampolines at my camp. Parents and their kids always find us to come play on them. I always made it a point to get the kids otterpops as well. Those kids were so happy everytime they came around. Their parents were level headed and very responsible parents. The kids deserved to be at Burning Man with their parents.

As for parents that fuck up and dont watch their kids, the parents should be blacklisted from BM forever. Be responsible and have no problems, only good fun.

I did hear of some chick who took to much of something and passed out while her 2 or 3 year old wandered off. Once the child was found, the LEOs found the camp and arrested the Mother for child endangerment.

If you plan or drinking or doing drugs while at BM and you have your children in the camp...your a fucking idiot !!!! Be responsible, take care of your kids or leave them at home !!

~John

RINGMASTER · Post by **RINGMASTER** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 9:20 pm

at 6:30 and fate or eager (cant recall!) there was a camp where you could make your own dog tags. there was a father and son and the young one was 11 and on his 4th burn.

that kid was amazing! e literally ran the camp and instructed people how to make the tags.

i personally dont think i could bring a child there, but for those that do, more power to them. yes it means you need to be responsible and accountable.. but you do in the "real" world too.

i agree with what was said above.. if your child goes missing, thats bad parenting (i guess there can be exceptions)

spectabillis · Post by **spectabillis** » Fri Sep 08, 2006 9:38 am

not that this topic hasn't been driven into the dust time and again, but the latest addition to something that has changed is on two occasions there was an attempt to use bman against people in child custody battles. dont know the outcome on one, but the other turned out alright when the negative opinion of bman was thwarted.

but i still dont like the idea of limiting my behavior for the presence of kids. if you even unknowingly approach a child naked you are in violation of some pretty strict laws, fortunately its never been enforced. but all it would take is just a few complaints for leo's to feel they have to do act on it. once people's sensibilites start influencing a dumbing down of the event, i will give up on this event before it turns myspace.

Lorgasm · Post by **Lorgasm** » Fri Sep 08, 2006 11:52 am

I have no real prob with kids at BM.. Afterall, we are all kids, right? I just hope the parents are taking real good care of the kids and making sure they eat well, get sleep, watch out for playa dust, and for goodness sakes keep their young ears away from the fucking speakers. Why do they leave their kids by the big speakers? Anyways, i digress. I've seen parents dote so well on their children. I applaude them. I've seen art cars made just for their children. Yay. I've asked one child if she was having fun and she was having a blast. I told her that her mom was great and she agreed.

Regardless of that, if I feel like being nude or shouting certain adult words or doing anything that may seem "not in front of the children", sorry, this is Burningman...not Disneyland. Kapeesh? Its freedom, its self reliance, its you, its me.

RINGMASTER · Post by **RINGMASTER** » Fri Sep 08, 2006 4:01 pm

on a related note, my friend was coming out of one of the bathrooms, and rather than touch the inside of the door on his way out, he kicked out it and almost took out a 4-6 year old boy.

he saw what he had almost done and quickly said "im sorry little man"

and the kids reply "it's alright dude, it's F-ing burning man"

haha.. he didnt use the F word, he literally said "f-ing"

it was great

Steven bradford · Post by **Steven bradford** » Fri Sep 08, 2006 7:19 pm

I'm totally in favor of kids at B-Man, but what spectabilis says is real

but all it would take is just a few complaints for leo's to feel they have to do act on it.

Remember the whole Jiffylube sign dustup in 2001? That was all the result of an overreaching LEO supposedly protecting kids from seeing something obscene.

(over reaching because Nevada law requires a judge's determination to call something obscene, it's not something an LEO can do pre emptively, but the effect was the same... Kids were used as the weapon to restrict adult activity.)

ChiChe · Post by **ChiChe** » Fri Sep 08, 2006 8:37 pm

No recollection of my exact location but Friday morning sunrise I was dancing with a fairly large group of people. There were some metal burn pipes that had designs cut out.

Sitting by the fire was a young boy that couldn't have been older than 12. He had only a T shirt, pants, shoes and a baseball cap. He was shivering, smoking a cig and his eyes were fully dilated. I sat down beside him and tried to chat with him to see if his parents were around nearby. He could only mumble and was too high too out of it. I got up to find my friend who is a ranger and when we went back just minutes later he was gone. We looked everyone and despite our efforts he must have been hiding under coats or caught a ride with some of the smaller art cars.

As a mom of a young teen, I worried about him all day and have yet to get him out of my mind.

I'm not opposed to people bringing children, however I believe there must be proper supervision. Thanks for listening.

makoona · Post by **makoona** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 8:12 am

This is a tuff one. I do feel that with a lot of supervision, BM can be an amazing experience for kids, especially good at developing their creativity and teaching them something about community building. Everyone here seems to agree that responsible parenting is key, and I think therein lies the problem. I saw tons of unattended kids, and with an event as large as BM has gotten, you will never get anything close to 100% of parents doing a good job with their kids, no matter how often you say that's how it should be. I don't know what the solution is, but I do wonder about the wisdom of 40,000 RADICALLY self expressing adults, mixed with irresponsible parents.

Apollonaris Zeus · Post by **Apollonaris Zeus** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:55 am

bring the kids and the wife but please put a tracking device on them ( or a 2-way radio) if you lose them in a crowd you can find them without having the rangers ask everybody that one of them is lost- especially the wife!

AIIZ