Religious promotion = Corporate promotion

s5 · Post by s5 » Tue Sep 05, 2006 6:07 pm

Did anyone else catch the Hare Krishna camp on the playa this year?

I really, really didn't like that they were given a prominent spot on the map to promote their religion, and I hope there isn't a repeat of this. If all they wanted to do was chant and have conversations with people about their beliefs, then sure, okay. Not my cup of tea, but not my problem either.

But handing out glossy pamphlets from the Hare Krishna organization crossed the line.

If corporate promotion is wrong at Burning Man, then so is the promotion of organized religion. After all, the goal of the glossy pamphlets with names and addresses of your local Krishna temple is to get you to join the religion and, hopefully, to donate money or your time and energy.

How is that any different than handing out an advertisement for a commercial product?

I see no difference.

Mr. Mellow · Post by **Mr. Mellow** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 10:03 pm

I'll put the proviso up front that I am religious, but not a Hare Krishna.

For some of us, there's definitely a spiritual aspect to the Burn. The city is like a huge Mandala, a thing of beauty comprised of precious jewels, manifested as each burner. A city created, admired for its beauty, and destroyed in a week. That's a religious viewpoint of mine, and if I want to share a perspective on BM that happens to be religious its no less valid than sharing one that environmental like AEZ or musical like every other thumpa-thumpa camp at BM.

In our camp, the Hare Krishna camp started a dialogue about Hare Krishna, and other religions and their validity. I'd say in general people aren't stupid, the HK's can't solicit money on the playa, so their presence only served to spurn a debate about mainstream religions vs. alternative religions. Debate is a good thing IMHO, and squelching a voice, just because you disagree with it is a bad thing.

s5 · Post by s5 » Tue Sep 05, 2006 10:47 pm

Like I said, I don't mind if they're out there talking about their beliefs and representing Hare Krishna, so no "squelching voices" here. I just think the glossy pamphlets are advertising. Yes, they're not asking for money on the playa, but neither would Budweiser if they were handing out free samples. The implication is still "check this out here and maybe you'll give us some money later". It goes too far.

Mr. Mellow · Post by **Mr. Mellow** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 10:53 pm

Hmmmm, think I'd need to see what they were handing out then. They just gave me a Bindi and a HK name, which I promptly forgot.

brayandtrill · Post by **brayandtrill** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 2:03 pm

Not to mention the political crap being handed out all over the playa and center camp. Come on folks, most of us are pretty like-minded when it comes to this stuff but does it really belong on the playa? I for one would rather escape it for one week.

Post by **AntiM** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 5:43 pm

Just say no to political moop.

bradtem · Post by **bradtem** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 5:43 pm

My personal view is that as long as we are going to have "scarce" real estate like the Esplanade, the emphasis should be on creativity. Camps placed there should be doing something creative to be appeciated by and participated in by the community, or perhaps provide a service to the community.

Which means that camps which instead want to reach out with a particular political or religious message to the community, while not unwelcome, might be placed in other locations, perhaps along the theme-camp radials or similar. This would, in my view, include a Krishna camp, or a PETA camp showing old videos of animal mistreatment etc.

It even puts Earth Guardians on the borderline. They exist to promote a philosophy of LNT to the community, not to provide artistic creativity, but the difference is that the philosphy promoted is an "offical" one, indeed promoting it is effectively part of the Burning Man BLM permit.

Mr. Mellow · Post by **Mr. Mellow** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 6:37 pm

Hee, maybe we should just say that only thumpa-thumpa dance camps and crowd pleasers like the hellevator should be on esplanade. That would work just fine for me, I could avoid the tourists by just staying off the main street and have one convenient street to hit when I do feel like dancing. You know, though, I really don't think the Krishna's or the Peta crowd should be restricted, but alternate placement isn't a bad idea.

s5 · Post by s5 » Wed Sep 06, 2006 6:48 pm

bradtem wrote:This would, in my view, include a Krishna camp, or a PETA camp showing old videos of animal mistreatment etc.

I forgot all about the PETA videos (though I was camped near the Krishna camp so it stuck out in my mind more). I agree, it's the same exact thing. And I'm already vegan and already a hardcore animal rights supporter, so it's not even about not liking PETA. I just don't think they should be out there promoting their incorporated organization in a space that could be used by someone doing something even vaguely creative.

Kinetic IV · Post by **Kinetic IV** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 9:32 pm

I didn't run into the Krishnas....of which both them and myself should be thankful. But I did run into what I think is the Peta camp that was at the entrance to the 9:00 keyhole. The video they showed was a the last thing I expected to see on the playa and at first it really pissed me off. But it also drew me in...my family raised livestock for years and I wouldn't have much of what I have today if it wasn't for livestock. So to see the slaughter videos...there were some things in there that even shocked me.

I realized it was a propaganda film, designed to showcase the worst abuses of the system...and I got to thinking that it really was appropriate for the playa. They were there because the audience with the most power to make changes were there. Depending on one's intrepretation of the 10 principles the event wants participants to go back and change the world we live in...and if people see that sort of stuff, that kosher slaughter is not really what it's billed to be for example....people will act, people will take the post event emotional bounce and use it to push for changes.

I can sincerely say that I hope the PETA camp, or at least the camp I stopped at comes back to the playa next year and with a similar high traffic placement. And I applaud the ORG for having the courage to put something like this in our faces to make us think. It's not just a fucking camping trip and a big ass party in the desert. It's a lot more than that.

Mr. Mellow · Post by **Mr. Mellow** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 10:02 pm

So, is it safe to say we all agree this sort of stuff should be somewhere prominent, but maybe not on Esplanade? That's a solid piece of feedback for our friends at BMORG.

Kinetic IV · Post by **Kinetic IV** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 10:12 pm

I'm thinking this sort of stuff would be ideal for a keyhole....but the Esplanade should be high energy, high interaction stuff. So yeah, I agree with you. But is there anyone else out there with an opinion on this? There's a lot of new lurkers on the board...come on and post.

The CO · Post by **The CO** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 10:31 pm

What about the JCC? if people started complaining about the location on the BRC Jewish Community Center (great conversationalists, btw) they would prolly be accused of being anti-semitic within minutes. I will make fun of any religion at the drop of a tin-pot helmet, but I had no problems with any religious group out there. In fact, most people of any denomination that are willing to come to BRC seem to be on the lighter side of their beliefs. That's what I like about it.

Mr. Mellow · Post by **Mr. Mellow** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 10:34 pm

The CO wrote:In fact, most people of any denomination that are willing to come to BRC seem to be on the lighter side of their beliefs. That's what I like about it.

True, I had a great time talking to some of the Muslim burners about their beliefs vis a vis Burning Man. You can't be a strict Muslim and come to Burning Man, but those that do can distill some of the more interesting aspects of how their beliefs share in our common humanity.

s5 · Post by s5 » Wed Sep 06, 2006 11:57 pm

The CO wrote:What about the JCC? if people started complaining about the location on the BRC Jewish Community Center (great conversationalists, btw) they would prolly be accused of being anti-semitic within minutes.

No problem with it. It's the glossy pamphlets from an incorporated organization that doesn't belong. The JCC didn't send out missionaries or solicit donations (not even indirectly), so I don't see any problem.

Let's break it down:

Communities of people with an organized religion in common: no problem.

Communities of people representing an organized religion by distributing glossy pamphlets with names and addresses of centers that will gladly take your donation: problem.

s5 · Post by s5 » Thu Sep 07, 2006 12:03 am

Kinetic IV wrote:I can sincerely say that I hope the PETA camp, or at least the camp I stopped at comes back to the playa next year and with a similar high traffic placement. And I applaud the ORG for having the courage to put something like this in our faces to make us think. It's not just a fucking camping trip and a big ass party in the desert. It's a lot more than that.

But the problem is everyone wants to make you think about their pet causes. If you make space for incorporated organizations like PETA, then you make the same space for the KKK to promote white supremacy, or the Republican Party to campaign against gay turban-wearing abortion doctors from Mexico.

Then again, maybe the PETA videos were played by randoms who were moved by the videos, but had no official association with PETA. Anyone know?

The CO · Post by **The CO** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 12:04 am

Well, I didn't see these pamphlets of the HK's, so can't really say anything there. Got a .pdf or scan you could upload?

Were they asking for money in BRC? Other art groups/concerts/festivals distribute flyers at Burning Man. I don't care for it, but it's easy to ignore. Seems like the HK's should be the same way.

What about flyers for regional decomp parties? They will usually take your donation...

Mr. Mellow · Post by **Mr. Mellow** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 7:14 am

s5 wrote:If you make space for incorporated organizations like PETA, then you make the same space for the KKK to promote white supremacy, or the Republican Party to campaign against gay turban-wearing abortion doctors from Mexico.

As much as I loathe the haters, the KKK and the Republican party fascists have as much right to free speech as the people we like to see on the Playa. I have serious doubt we would ever see them at Burning Man, but if they wanted to come that's radical inclusion from my point of view. Let all things play in the marketplace of ideas, even if they are fascist hater scumbags.

"Yes, Grand Wizard, your theme camp is in a special area at 8:00 & Lame, its on an outer loop. You can't miss it, its just you, NAMBLA, and the Republican National Committee."

joel the ornery · Post by **joel the ornery** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 7:33 am

hmmm, no comments about the Democratic Party... oh yeah, they aren't the party in power...

ha ha ha!

republicans rock!

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 1:23 pm

bradtem wrote:My personal view is that as long as we are going to have "scarce" real estate like the Esplanade, the emphasis should be on creativity. Camps placed there should be doing something creative to be appeciated by and participated in by the community, or perhaps provide a service to the community.

Which means that camps which instead want to reach out with a particular political or religious message to the community, while not unwelcome, might be placed in other locations, perhaps along the theme-camp radials or similar. This would, in my view, include a Krishna camp, or a PETA camp showing old videos of animal mistreatment etc.

It even puts Earth Guardians on the borderline. They exist to promote a philosophy of LNT to the community, not to provide artistic creativity, but the difference is that the philosphy promoted is an "offical" one, indeed promoting it is effectively part of the Burning Man BLM permit.

/
Are you kiding? The esplanade has turned into seating areas for the jerks. If you have the seniority you can set your camp in the middle of BM board walk. What the hell is this front row camping all about? Many of the quote Theme Camps unquote were there for the invited. They were uninviting to the general public. So after I have enough years and become a big enough jerk. I can say I have a theme camp and x # of camp mates. I can apply and get early in for my buddys. Then the frog will place me right up front. Gives me the right to throw my gerywater over the back fence onto passer bys. I can flick my butts out onto the boad walk. Get fuck up and pass out with my ass sticking for morning viewing.

All this while pushing the tech-no-rave shit into the bedroom of the city.

And then there is Larry H and his fucking clan that not only take up prim theme camp space. but park there shitty rides on the open playa. The "open playa" was once refered to as a blank canvas for artise to fill. Great art work Larry, rides for your fat ass friends.

Thank Frog for fucking us over.

Kinetic IV · Post by **Kinetic IV** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 1:53 pm

Amen, Unjun, AMEN!

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 2:00 pm

that may be the last poor grammered misspelled rant you hear from me. I can hear the knee cap bats rattling now.

bradtem · Post by **bradtem** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 5:42 pm

There are placements which make little sense to me, camps which seemed to offer little or nothing to the community. But it's a matter of taste.

However the city is designed, there is going to be some prime real estate and there's a need of some system to fill it well. One idea would be some democratic vote but that doesn't allow something new and striking to appear because it's unknown to the voter.

My personal metrics would be novelty, creativity, service and popularity. Thunderdome for example is very popular which would give it points but has been the same for many years which would lose it novelty points. (One of the radials like 4:30 and 7:30 might make sense for the classic, but popular camps, with strong encouragement for Virgins to go to those streets since everything is new for them.) Camps like Pyromid and Eggchair figured out they weren't doing anything new and retired their projects. Some camps are roughly the same every year but try to deliver something new withing their more stable context.

In the end there is going to be something to complain about in every system.

My personal feeling however, is that a circle is the wrong shape. A circle is the shape that encloses an area (playa) with the smallest perimeter (esplanade.) A triangle is the regular shape that gives you the most esplanade for the area of playa enclosed. (It gets a bit more complex with the need for a wide opening at the top.)

A circle also means that on outer streets, the fastest way to almost everyhwere is to go inward, often to the espalande, and then go back out near your target. That overemphasizes the esplanade.

Lady V · Post by **Lady V** » Fri Sep 08, 2006 6:18 pm

We were placed directly behind the Krishna Camp, on Anxious. They seemed to be very confused about B Man. They brought 3 huge generators which were on constantly and produced an enormous amount of power and noise. We couldn't figure out what they were using them for. When we asked them if they could consolidate the three and use just one, they were obsequiously friendly but technically inept, so just turned the generators around so the exhaust faced their camp instead of ours. That was a bit tough for us, since our generator fell through 2 days before we left and we scrambled to buy a silent one so as not to disturb our neighbors.

We mostly noticed the contradiction. Peace, love, except to the neighbors!

I believe allowing Krishna Camp or PETA Camp or the Young Republicans or Aryan Brotherhood or Democrats for Peace or whatever, is a bad idea--like a virus, which spreads no matter how you try to contain it.

It also might be nice to have a Religion Village where people of varying faiths presents activities or workshops or whatever so that those who want to learn about all kinds of faiths can do that. More like a school than a donation or soul-saving station...

lomaxfrog · Post by **lomaxfrog** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 2:37 pm

The placement of theme camps is done by their requests (not always
fullfilled), by the level of interaction (at least what they say they will
do - reality might be different) and what is possible.

There is, of course, a main direction. For instance, there has been
focus on the 4:30 and 7:30 avenues.

There was an increase of 30% of theme camp requests this year,
which resulted in an increase of placed theme camps, but also
an increase of rejected requests for placement.

I agree that some theme camps do not get the ideal placement,
and, well, this has always been the case, but the numbers of
suboptimal placement also increased. More placement means
more problems.

I can see the question of putting a cap raising. Perhaps we will
have to do that, but the time is first to get feedback such as
those feedbacks, and see what can be done to improve.

Frog ([email protected])
BRC Placement

Lorgasm · Post by **Lorgasm** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 2:59 pm

I always believed that BM represented freedom, learning, loving, yadda yadda, and above all HAVING AN OPEN MIND. I went to the Kirshna Camp, took their pamphlet and read it a bit as dinner reading material. I love BM for its diversity. It gives me the avenues I crave to explore and learn. I too believe in the ethical treatment of animals. However, I've seen many videos in my time of what happens to them. Since I didn't want to see anymore, I just bypassed it. If there is something you don't like or just in into, just walk past it. ITs easy. Just appreciate the big picture. No one is trying to brainwash you. You are at Burningman. Embrace the diversity, the love, the fucking freedom.

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 4:16 pm

FRog said<snipe>

You said what is written. I'm sorry but I know you have to bend to the "upper class" and long timers. The theme camp rows turned out to be one personal camp after another. They were not interactive.... hell they were unaprochable. Have already spoken to earth guardians on the subject of burning wet garbage in asigned burn barrels. Was laughed at when I swore at the fucker throwing grey water out of a drum with a bucket.

Then a 24 hour a day teck-no-trance-raver camp placed at 8:39 X Fate. That just let the electronic drum beat even when the were not there. Was told by a Ranger: sorry it ruining you Burning Man but that's the way it go's.

So next year you will hearing from a camp placed like that I'm bring my bull horn, air craft ear covers and it will be feed back heaven. I going to feel the need to express my self.

There is just no need for 20plus early in people. To set up four car ports and throw out a bunch of old sofas. To lay around and watch the world go by.

Placing theme canps on the spoke streets make them undesirable. Not much interest in walking a extra mile out there and back in.

If you remove the camping. There is more than enough space for interaction camps Carnvals, Medicine shows and gypsy's have done it for years.

And that big gob of motor homes pickup trucks, and golf carts. Who's parking spills out on to the open playa. That is the daddy of all this crap.

lomaxfrog · Post by **lomaxfrog** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 10:26 am

[quote="unjonharley"]FRog said<snipe>
...
[/quote]

All I can really say is that a lot of work has been done this
year to, at least contain, some of the issues you are mentionning.

Frog

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 10:35 am

lomaxfrog wrote:
unjonharley wrote:FRog said<snipe>
...
All I can really say is that a lot of work has been done this
year to, at least contain, some of the issues you are mentionning.

Frog

/
Thanks Frog I was playing the bad guy to get some points across.

I realy had a great time this year. I traveled around the city playing 50's music andpicking moop. This gave me a chance to meet the burner at there camps. Have already started rebuilding the moop mobil.

Apollonaris Zeus · Post by **Apollonaris Zeus** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:49 am

I believe that all camps should be based on farces. So that should include religious camps which are farces.

So lets keep them and make much fun of them!

AIIZ

Religious promotion = Corporate promotion

Religious promotion = Corporate promotion

Esplande is to be creative

Re: Esplande is to be creative

Re: Esplande is to be creative

I won't disagree

Re: Esplande is to be creative