Patience wrote:Offensiveness rating: 2.5
I find this post offensive because it likens the inability to speak English to a "destructive disease." The implication is that it is wrong to not speak English, and those who do not have a serious problem. Even if a person lives in the United States, a place where knowledge of English is extremely useful, they are not morally obliged to learn English. Many Chinese immigrants in San Francisco get by just fine without knowing English, for example, and I don't believe that they are "sink[ing] so low into their destructive disease." Their lives, their choices, and they're not yours to judge.
Well, you yourself admit that learning english is "extremely useful". Obviously not speaking any english is going to limit their choices when trying to find a good paying job. That's what
I'm saying too, so why do we disagree? As I'm perceiving it, we're having this big to do because you've
chosen to be offended by what I've said. You could as easily have ignored the parts of my analogy that didn't *quite* fit, but then you wouldn't have had the satisfaction of being able to point out how morally superior you are to me.
aforceforgood wrote:
maybe Don is hisplachicatino
Patience wrote:Offensiveness rating: 7.8
Your attempt at humor aside, what is offensive and about this post is the use of the word "hisplachicatino" to refer to hispanic people, not the implication that Don might be hispanic. You were obviously jabbing at "PC" terms used to connote certain races and ethnic backgrounds. While use of PC terminology is admittedly overdone and often overemphasized, the words we use to refer to a certain race reflect our feelings about them, and so certain words have been commonly adopted as respectful and accepted, just as certain words are commonly known to be offensive and racist. Your derision of the commonly used terms for hispanics and use instead of "hisplachicatino" is therefore disrespectful of the hispanic community at large.
a) Why is it "disrespectful of the hispanic community at large", because you say so?
b) How is mixing "respectful" terms together "disrespectful"? You're not making sense.
c) "certain words are commonly known to be offensive and racist." I wasn't aware that "hisplachicatino" was one of those words that has become commonly known to be offensive and racist. If I were, I sure wouldn't have used it. Have you heard the word "hisplachicatino" before? Because as far as I know, I made it up, precisely to show how burdensome it is to try and choose just the right word so as not to offend someone who's oversensitive to such things. And for that matter, some "Hispanics" don't like the word "latino", and some "latinos" think the word "Hispanic" lumps them all into one category, (or refers to how spain conquered mexico and so is offensive, etc.) when there are many kinds, spanish, mexican, puerto rican, cuban, mayan, etc, etc, et fucking cetera. Some mexican people want to be called spanish and vice versa. (Which is all fine, but don't get pissy with me just because I don't telepathically figure out your preference.) So I think you can see how I can not have much patience for you jumping on me for poking fun at this politically correct bullcrap, when it's not even
possible to say something in this area which will not piss
somebody off.
d) Herself's post was dead on the money as far as what I was trying to communicate. She got it, so I'm standing firm that you're overreacting. You haven't made a sufficient case to convince me otherwise.
aforceforgood wrote:
and just to head off the "Well, forcing them to learn english is destroying the mexican culture!" argument before that shit even gets started, I wanna say this before I forget it;
If your culture is so fucking weak that learning english can kill it then it deserves to die. (copyright2003)
Patience wrote:Offensiveness rating: 7.0
You later explained that your point with this post was that learning English wouldn't kill the culture, and that that was a silly notion. Reading the post, I don't see how anyone would interpret what you wrote to mean what you later said it meant. You seem quite earnest in your assessment. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume that you're just bad at getting your point across.
Let's accept your explained meaning, then. Immigrants in the U.S. are constantly faced with the difficult problem of gentrification. The notion you've disregarded as "silly" is quite real to them. Culture and language are inextricably interwoven, and for many immigrants adopting the new language would mean an abandonment of their culture.
Again, why, because you say so? So, what, if a young child is brought up and taught only spanish, somehow he magically gains some inherent knowledge of latino culture? Or are there ideas or philosophies that CANNOT be expressed in english? (I'd be interested to know what these are, if there are any) Again, you're not making sense. For your argument to hold any weight, you'd need to
show )(please note the italics- they mean that you can't just say something like it's self-evident to such morally superior people such as yourself, you need to communicate WHY that is to us morally inferior folks for us to be able to learn and therefore elevate ourselves to your level, or you're just arguing) that learning English means abandoning all of your previously held beliefs, and I really doubt you can show that.
aforceforgood wrote:
And anyways, if your freakin culture is so great, then what're you doing here?
Patience wrote:Offensiveness rating: 7.4
I already cited this and explained why it was racist, when I said:
Now, if you meant this jab at Mexican immigrants as a joke, then frankly, your comedy blows. If not, the implication is clear. Either the "freakin" culture of the Mexican people is not so great (a racist statement), or Mexicans shouldn't be coming to America (racist and anti-immigrant).
Well, those people came here because they made a
choice, and there are always consequences to choices. When I'm made to feel like I should have to learn spanish, or reprint forms in various languages (which has a very real cost and impact on our economy, the free flow of information and just the general level of bureaucratic bullshit) because to do otherwise would be "insensitive" or "racist", to me, that feels like someone is saying I need to assume responsibility for the consequences of someone else's choice, and I think you're going to find it pretty common that people have an adverse reaction to that. Race has nothing to do with that. And I'm not saying we shouldn't have
some multilingualism, like in hospitals or whatever, obviously safety warnings should communicate as clearly as possible to as many cultures as is efficiently possible. What I'm saying is that this separatism movement puts a burden on our economy and the easy flow of information, and on the blending of cultures where we
gradually and naturally adopt what we like from another culture, instead of what we're forced to comply with by edict.
Those coming here were I'm sure aware that the culture here was different, and therefore I find it offensive to try and push to change our culture
through a government sponsored agenda into something that has resulted in a culture rife with corruption and an economy that keeps the majority of the people poor with no hope for ever elevating themselves. Why do you think they come here? Sheesh.
Patience wrote:You countered by complaining that I called you racist without citing you:
aforceforgood wrote:
Offensive how? I keep asking for cites, and you all just want to keep piling on, without having to defend your own muddy thinking. If it's so goddamned offensive, then it should be pretty easy to illustrate just how admitting I just realized someone might be hispanic is racist.
Patience wrote:The truth is that multiple people have, throughout the course of this dialogue, expressed exactly what is racist about the things you've posted here.
No, actually they haven't. There's been a bunch of times that people have
reposted what I've said and simply stated that it was racist, but not
why.
Some have made arguments that go a little more indepth in trying to explain
WHY they perceive what I've said to be racist, and so far, I'm unconvinced by any of those arguments that it's any more than overreaction. Others have said the same, but you choose to ignore their posts, for some reason.
Patience wrote:Oh, and if you'd like a humor rating for your posts, I can send them to your home address. My friend Giancarlo would like to deliver them to you personally.
Hmm, I wasn't aware that threatening someone with a beating was now considered part of intelligent discourse. You're really bolstering your case here that you're someone worth listening to.
