Sound Issues with Outpost 23 AKA the Afterparty

Bin Noddin · Post by **Bin Noddin** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 7:55 pm

Pour it on, John. Got a light?

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 7:59 pm

Frog said: He has to trust that theme camps stay with in there agreement. To me it says: after you set up al bets are off. Lets move ths off this thread maybe to bull horn?

dj_john69 · Post by **dj_john69** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 8:09 pm

Bin Noddin wrote:Pour it on, John. Got a light?

Well, i do like fire.

~John

dragonfly Jafe · Post by **dragonfly Jafe** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 8:34 pm

for those wishing to discuss possible methods to deal with loud camps (after attempts at mediation have failed), please goto this thread;

http://eplaya.burningman.org/viewtopic. ... highlight=

ting · Post by **ting** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:37 am

SHIT TUNES. EVEN WORSE MIXES.

You cats could at least have had some talent when playing that early in the morning/late at night. The mixing coming from that camp was a travesty.

spectabillis · Post by **spectabillis** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 3:06 am

dj_john69 wrote:In 2002...

no idea of what you're trying to accomplish, but i doubt there are too many that appreciate it.

Kinetic IV · Post by **Kinetic IV** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 7:12 am

ting wrote:SHIT TUNES. EVEN WORSE MIXES.

You cats could at least have had some talent when playing that early in the morning/late at night. The mixing coming from that camp was a travesty.

Not everyone's Tiesto or Paul Van Dyk. At least they tried to mix something and make a contribution to the event. Besides with 40,000 people there what you don't like someone else just might. Keep walking or riding...you'll find something good.

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 7:28 am

Kinetic IV wrote:
ting wrote:SHIT TUNES. EVEN WORSE MIXES.

You cats could at least have had some talent when playing that early in the morning/late at night. The mixing coming from that camp was a travesty.
Not everyone's Tiesto or Paul Van Dyk. At least they tried to mix something and make a contribution to the event. Besides with 40,000 people there what you don't like someone else just might. Keep walking or riding...you'll find something good.

/

I have been pleasently surprised the last two years as to how many like Your Hit Parade 1950-54. They are the tunes coming from my trike as I ride about town. I meet more people that way. Am invited to refreashments and sit in the shade to share the tunes. Young people dancing in the street to then.

Sassy · Post by **Sassy** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 9:59 am

In 2002, we did a LSSA on 10:00 and Esplanade. On Sunday morning after the Burn, a sheriff from Gerlech came to my camp and told me to turn off our sound system...which we still had 2000+ people dancing. Ya what to know what i said ??

I FLIPPED him off and told him to deal with the sound for another few hours.

YES, we were placed there.

YES, we had sound complaints from neighbors.

Did i turn it down or off ?? FUCK NO !!

Whats the difference of my story to this story thats got Player's panties still in a wad ??

Not much...i just like telling my story.

~John

p.s. PLAYER...you sound like a whiny lil bitch instead of a Burner vet !! Get over it. Learn to camp on the outskirts champ.

John, you sound like one of those 100% complete and total assholes that embarrasses the entire Burner community. Have some respect for Gerlach's citizens. Jerk.

ting · Post by **ting** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 10:12 am

[quote]Not every one is Tiesto...Keep walking or riding...you'll find something good.[/quote]

I would have. If their speakers werent aimed directly across from my tent when I came home to go to bed. Oh well. Watching the trance zombies "dance" made up for it. hahaha It was like Return of the Living Dead 4: Rave 2 tha grave over there. Classic.

Dr BENWAYLADEN · Post by **Dr BENWAYLADEN** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 10:13 am

Badger · Post by **Badger** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 10:16 am

I'm not in any way trying to be snarky, I'd just like to hear feedback on what people think the rangers (or some other group of unpaid volunteers at BM who wants to take it on) should do in these situations.

And I'd like to hear what you are going to do to affect the change you seek. Ideas and suggestions are grand things and they often enough get incorporated into how the Rangers do business. However, there is a line at which point the annoyance factor gets ramped up within any of the various volunteer groups at BM. This is especially so when fundamental and challenging issues get brought to the fore by people who have stated strong opinions and interesting ideas on how others should do things yet express no willingness to get their feet wet in helping to assure those changes.

Ron · Post by **Ron** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 10:25 am

[quote="Badger"....This is especially so when fundamental and challenging issues get brought to the fore by people who have stated strong opinions and interesting ideas on how others should do things yet express no willingness to get their feet wet in helping to assure those changes.[/quote]

Understood. I'd be more than willing to take three, "Sound Cop," Ranger shifts (of eight hours each) if they came with the authority to speak for the Org and 86 both individual campers and entire camps that refused to comply with the existing sound rules. Consider that both an idea and a volunteer to enact it.

Just wandering around as an individual with no institutional authority to enforce the existing rules? Hell no. I've done more than enough security work over the years, I've got to get paid for hazard duty.

Ron, who's guessing the Rangers would be swamped with qualified volunteers to be "Sound Cops," if the Org would get as serious about sound pollution as they are about MOOP.

Ron · Post by **Ron** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 10:30 am

Hell, I'd go even further. Forget about the Rangers, with Org support I'd volunteer to build a dedicated group of enforcement volunteers responsible for pollution of all types. Sound, poop, left over bicycles, you name it. Give me a platform to reach volunteers, a reasonable budget to haul trash after the event, and the authority to 86 those who deserve it and I'd dump *scads* of effort into creating this new playa organization. Or maybe it should be part of DPW since they end up cleaning up the messes folk leave behind. Given support from the org I'd be happy to volunteer to work with folk to craft new enforcement efforts of unknown type and organization. But one has got to have that org support to do anything, seems to me...

Ron

Ugly Dougly · Post by **Ugly Dougly** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 10:31 am

Bet that spot is pretty quiet right about now...

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 10:36 am

Badger wrote:
I'm not in any way trying to be snarky, I'd just like to hear feedback on what people think the rangers (or some other group of unpaid volunteers at BM who wants to take it on) should do in these situations.
And I'd like to hear what you are going to do to affect the change you seek. Ideas and suggestions are grand things and they often enough get incorporated into how the Rangers do business. However, there is a line at which point the annoyance factor gets ramped up within any of the various volunteer groups at BM. This is especially so when fundamental and challenging issues get brought to the fore by people who have stated strong opinions and interesting ideas on how others should do things yet express no willingness to get their feet wet in helping to assure those changes.

/
This form is a good place to work out a problem. Lots of input. I have in the past taken what I have learned to the next stage of changing things. Sit back see how this rolls out.

BoxaRox · Post by **BoxaRox** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:04 pm

It seems to me that ANY productive discussion of how to mediate conflicts between sound camps and "sleepers" has GOT to start with some objective standards. Without that, you're forever locked in a "yes it is, no it isn't" argument.

There's still going to be plenty of argument about what the standards should be, but at least the argument will be over tangible standards.

I would suggest that the burden of proof lies with the sound camp. A SPL meter is the most basic piece of test equipment, which ANY sound tech claiming any degree of competence ought to have. Mediation of any dispute begins with a meter reading. Discussion goes from there.

spectabillis · Post by **spectabillis** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:11 pm

Badger wrote:However, there is a line at which point the annoyance factor gets ramped up within any of the various volunteer groups at BM. This is especially so when fundamental and challenging issues get brought to the fore by people who have stated strong opinions and interesting ideas on how others should do things yet express no willingness to get their feet wet in helping to assure those changes.

i dont think that line has been crossed at all, and it seems the annoyance factor is equally strong on both sides.

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:12 pm

BoxaRox wrote:It seems to me that ANY productive discussion of how to mediate conflicts between sound camps and "sleepers" has GOT to start with some objective standards. Without that, you're forever locked in a "yes it is, no it isn't" argument.

There's still going to be plenty of argument about what the standards should be, but at least the argument will be over tangible standards.

I would suggest that the burden of proof lies with the sound camp. A SPL meter is the most basic piece of test equipment, which ANY sound tech claiming any degree of competence ought to have. Mediation of any dispute begins with a meter reading. Discussion goes from there.

/
There are standards, guide lines and rules all set by the BMorg. The bottom line is that no one in the org takes responsibility for any of then.....

Kinetic IV · Post by **Kinetic IV** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:22 pm

Objective Standards? We've got a foundation for that right here...from Dragonfly Jafe's post on Page 3 of this thread:

And it turns out there is additional guidelines listed there-in. Pg 32 of the 2006 Ranger manual states (in parts);

"Sound levels emitted from any camp should not cause serious disruption
to adjacent camps. Sound systems may not exceed 300 watts or 90dB
at 25’ from the speakers in the City without prior approval. If a problem
with sound levels occurs, and continues unabated, the source of power
for such a device or system may be disabled."

Ok, this means we have a clear cut foundation. 300 watts and 90 db 25 ft from camp. Now taking a run and gun approach with this nobody out there is going to take time to measure diddly. I don't expect anyone enforcing this to carry a tape measure so let's loosen this up a bit so anyone....even someone slightly impaired that you might be arguing with could hopefully figure it out. Here's my idea:

Scenario 1:
Measure the sound volume from the middle of the street. You can take a measurement from anywhere around the offending source from the public street. If that measurement exceeds 90 db...then it needs to be turned down. Everyone can figure out where the middle of the street is..well hopefully they can.

Scenario 2:
If the sound is drifting away from the street going to the camp behind them or to the side...I suggest 30 steps. Take two people, one with the sound meter and someone picked from the camp with the sound system. Both of them walk off at any angle they choose away from the source. Count off 30 steps. (30 being 1/3 of the 90 db limit and an easy number to remember). Stop at 30 steps, measure. If it's over 90 db it needs to come down. 30 steps allows for walking around tents and other stuff and it's easier to figure out then pulling out the tape and doing a linear measurement. It also allows for easy group participation in figuring out if the sound is too loud...

Again these are just ideas...I'm approaching this from a perspective that when the issues come up people could be tired, in altered states of consciousness, and we want an easy to enforce, easy to figure out standard that doesn't have people running around with tape measures.

Thoughts?

Kinetic IV · Post by **Kinetic IV** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:24 pm

Unjun, you snuck your post in while I was writing mine. Enforcement is going to fall on us. The Rangers won't do a damn thing...so it's up to us to sort this out. BRC is an experiment in building a temporary community and that includes communication so if you run with that thought this is truly our problem. The only time we should be pulling in the Rangers is as an absolute last resort....

Isotopia · Post by **Isotopia** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:01 pm

I absolutely agree with the above post.

Isotopia · Post by **Isotopia** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:15 pm

Just wandering around as an individual with no institutional authority to enforce the existing rules? Hell no. I've done more than enough security work over the years, I've got to get paid for hazard duty.

I guess we have a shifting of perspectives here Ron. I'm of the mind that *each and every person on the playa is their own Ranger. I relly believ that in all but the most extreme and fucked up situations that there *is* a way to remedy situations such as sound complaints.

I was gonna post this earlier but decided aginst boring most of you. For well over five years now, sound complaints have been one of the biggest pains in the ass that the Rangers have had to deal with. Seriously in probably 90% of the cases where a complaint ha been made the peron(s) complaining made absolutely NO EFFORT to engage the offending camp. None.

It amazes me still how many people are unwilling or unable to walk over to a camp, introduce themselves, state their complaint and engage the other person(s) on how to remedy the situation so that each fells there's been a win-win result. There's no magic to doing this. Not secret recipe. No degree required. Often enough the only pre-requesite is just spilling your truth in an honest and forthright manner all the while being sincere in the hope and expectation of a resolution. I can count on one hand the number of times over the last five years where acting as an intermediary to get people just to fucking talk hasn't resulted in things getting ironed out. Sure it ain't perfect and yeh, it won't always happen but RARELY has that been the case with either myself or most other Rangers I've spoken with about this issue.

I just don't get it sometimes. (oops, gotta go)

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:26 pm

Isotopia wrote:
Just wandering around as an individual with no institutional authority to enforce the existing rules? Hell no. I've done more than enough security work over the years, I've got to get paid for hazard duty.
I guess we have a shifting of perspectives here Ron. I'm of the mind that *each and every person on the playa is their own Ranger. I relly believ that in all but the most extreme and fucked up situations that there *is* a way to remedy situations such as sound complaints.

I was gonna post this earlier but decided aginst boring most of you. For well over five years now, sound complaints have been one of the biggest pains in the ass that the Rangers have had to deal with. Seriously in probably 90% of the cases where a complaint ha been made the peron(s) complaining made absolutely NO EFFORT to engage the offending camp. None.

It amazes me still how many people are unwilling or unable to walk over to a camp, introduce themselves, state their complaint and engage the other person(s) on how to remedy the situation so that each fells there's been a win-win result. There's no magic to doing this. Not secret recipe. No degree required. Often enough the only pre-requesite is just spilling your truth in an honest and forthright manner all the while being sincere in the hope and expectation of a resolution. I can count on one hand the number of times over the last five years where acting as an intermediary to get people just to fucking talk hasn't resulted in things getting ironed out. Sure it ain't perfect and yeh, it won't always happen but RARELY has that been the case with either myself or most other Rangers I've spoken with about this issue.

I just don't get it sometimes. (oops, gotta go)

/
It is very clear that you have not read this thread. In all cases leading up to this thread the offender had been ask to change there behaver. A ranger told me there was nothing she could do about my complaint. The ranger never asked if I had tryed to speak to the offender. How about no more shooting from the hip. A little reading wont melt you

dj_john69 · Post by **dj_john69** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:54 pm

spectabillis wrote:
dj_john69 wrote:In 2002...
no idea of what you're trying to accomplish, but i doubt there are too many that appreciate it.

I was making a comparision from 2002 until this year, there has been sound problems & complaints. It hasnt changed over the years. In 2002, we were placed in our location...we had our speakers placed where they would be okay with no complaints. YES, someone from theme camp placement met with us on the Playa preset-up and had a grand plan of helping to aim our speakers in a direction to help aim our sound towards the mountains but it failed. The sound actually bounced off the mountains and into the town i guess. It didnt work then...period. It still isnt working as of this year...period.

Shit, the theme camp placements were far worse back then. We had the 10:00 and Esplanade corner. The placement team placed a small bar & sound system right next to ours. GREAT PLANNING !! We felt bad for the neighbor because there sound system didnt have a chance next to ours. They shouldnt have been placed there at all. Another rave camp should have been. I guess this is why the expanded the theme camps further into the city limits and getting the 300w peak inside the city limits.

This discussion & debate comes about every year after BM. There are harsh words between people and the shit never gets resolved. Its a never ending vicious circle. This is why i have choose over the years not to do another LSSA. Even though im looking to do a BIG one next year.

~John

dj_john69 · Post by **dj_john69** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:58 pm

Sassy wrote:
In 2002, we did a LSSA on 10:00 and Esplanade. On Sunday morning after the Burn, a sheriff from Gerlech came to my camp and told me to turn off our sound system...which we still had 2000+ people dancing. Ya what to know what i said ??

I FLIPPED him off and told him to deal with the sound for another few hours.

YES, we were placed there.

YES, we had sound complaints from neighbors.

Did i turn it down or off ?? FUCK NO !!

Whats the difference of my story to this story thats got Player's panties still in a wad ??

Not much...i just like telling my story.

~John

p.s. PLAYER...you sound like a whiny lil bitch instead of a Burner vet !! Get over it. Learn to camp on the outskirts champ.
John, you sound like one of those 100% complete and total assholes that embarrasses the entire Burner community. Have some respect for Gerlach's citizens. Jerk.

LOL...to tell you the truth. I know quite a few locals there. They dont have a problem with the sounds coming from BM. As for my embarrassing the Burner Community...whatever. NOT ALL BURNERS ARE NICE AND SWEET. GET OVER IT. JERK.

BoxaRox · Post by **BoxaRox** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 3:08 pm

Ok, this means we have a clear cut foundation. 300 watts and 90 db 25 ft from camp. Now taking a run and gun approach with this nobody out there is going to take time to measure diddly. I don't expect anyone enforcing this to carry a tape measure so let's loosen this up a bit so anyone....even someone slightly impaired that you might be arguing with could hopefully figure it out. Here's my idea:

Scenario 1:
Measure the sound volume from the middle of the street. You can take a measurement from anywhere around the offending source from the public street. If that measurement exceeds 90 db...then it needs to be turned down. Everyone can figure out where the middle of the street is..well hopefully they can.

Scenario 2:
If the sound is drifting away from the street going to the camp behind them or to the side...I suggest 30 steps. Take two people, one with the sound meter and someone picked from the camp with the sound system. Both of them walk off at any angle they choose away from the source. Count off 30 steps. (30 being 1/3 of the 90 db limit and an easy number to remember). Stop at 30 steps, measure. If it's over 90 db it needs to come down. 30 steps allows for walking around tents and other stuff and it's easier to figure out then pulling out the tape and doing a linear measurement. It also allows for easy group participation in figuring out if the sound is too loud...

The biggest problem with "objective" standards for measuring sound, is that few people comprehend the "math" of what they're actually measuring. Reading a sould level meter is not the same as reading a thermometer.

Scenario 1 might work, but would need a lower number. 90 dB from the center of the street would be insane. Maybe 70.

Problem is, then any sensible sound camp would set up facing AWAY from the nearest street -- thus *increaing* the offense to nearby "residential" areas.

Scenario 2 -- anyone capable of focusing both eyes on a single object can guesstimate 25 feet close enough to make this work. For any sound system large/loud enough to "offend" at any distance, readings from 15 to 35 feet aren't going to be that much different. And no, we do NOT pick any arbitrary direction -- unless the complainer gets to choose. For consistency, measurement should be from the loudest direction (typically the front).

I might also suggest that simple democracy might be a good way to mediate. If there are more people pissed off about the sound (and who are willing to 'vote' by attending the "meeting") than are attending the party, it's too loud. One tired asshole trying to shut down a party with 100 people, however, probably ought to find somewhere else to sleep.

Cases where it's one sleepy asshole and one bad DJ, should probably just be determined by a fight to the death.

Badger · Post by **Badger** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 3:51 pm

It is very clear that you have not read this thread.

Fuck off you pharisaic prick.

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 4:05 pm

Badger wrote:
It is very clear that you have not read this thread.
Fuck off you pharisaic prick.

/
NOw that's the reaction of a no talented dj. I get that a lot, There must be some thing about me people do'nt like. But thank you anyway Badger

spectabillis · Post by **spectabillis** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 4:20 pm

Badger wrote:
It is very clear that you have not read this thread.
Fuck off you pharisaic prick.

really unbalanced reply, defiantely over.