Discrimination at BM

[Taz]

I happen to teach pole dancing at Burning Man. I teach a coed class to anyone who's interested. I was doing such at my camp when at the end of my class a man appeared at our door and invited the class to a pole dance workshop that was open to all levels at Spike's vampire bar. I knew where that was since I attended an advanced class there last year. So I accepted his invitation.
Wnen I made time to make Spike's bar I was greeted by the doorman who told me this was a women's only event and was advertised as such. I said ,"Isn't it a workshop? That's where people of difference experience levels get together and exchange knowledge." He said, "Yes but we received letters informing us that men made the women intimidated and they wanted the event women only." " What about all the men that get intimidated by the women who are superior dancers? I didn't discriminate against the women because of that!" I replied. "Well yes but my hands are already tied. The policy was already set (It was premeditated).I've already turned several men away already. "he said. "Were any of the men instructors?" I asked . "No" was his reply .
I asked the doorman , if this was a women's only event , why did they send a representative to my coed class and invite them to attend? He denied that they sent anyone to my camp. I have my doubts of his explanation since why would a man invite women to an event they he himself would be excluded from? Oh , I guess he must have thought he was saving them from the male who was intimidating them, figures.
Just then a woman who had attended last year's event walked up . The doorman said ,"This is Taz ,he was in the event last year" She said "Hi" and proceeded in. The doorman said , "I remember you from last year. You are very good, but my hands are tied." (So experience was not a factor, gender was) . "Well I can see that that doesn't matter to you" I replied, "Your hands are not tied because you know who I am." Then I left.
Burning Man , to me, has always been a place where people of different genders, ages, lifestyles ,economic status, races,sexual preferences, religions, value systems, backgrounds came together to live the lives they have been suppressed from expressing in their default environment. They are coming out of the closet. Isn't that the meaning of radical self-expression?
So what does this group offer to them? Another closet? If they wanted that, why didn't they stay home?
What is pole dancing? It's a performance art! What is a performance art? That's where you perform before a random audience. Since when is it that a performance group got to pick and choose who they perform or practice before? If I ran a class on sexual positions could I limit enrollment to foxy, young , buxom ladies and discriminate against the fat, old, wrinkled, ugly ones because i believe they intimidate the beautiful ones? If I were discussing sexual techniques could I limit it to straight couples because I believe the gay ones would intimidate them?
Burning Man is a place of toleration of individual differences and the harmony of diversity. I don't believe sexism has or should have a place in my community.

[Badger]

I don't believe sexism has or should have a place in my community.

Nor do I. But then, I don't necessarily believe that what you experienced was either of the above. Too many people seem to be of the mind that if a place decides to be selective in who they allow to enter that they are automatically subjecting the excluded to discriminitation. Never mind that the camp may be limited in space, resources, seating, food, booze or that they maintain numbers to keep a level of decorum or keep the gawkers at bay. There could be any number of reasons for not being let in a camp. Just because it happens doesn't mean folks should default to the opinion that they were discriminated against.

[skygod]

He said, "Yes but we received letters informing us that men made the women intimidated and they wanted the event women only."

I wish those men would stop doing that, it ruins it for the rest of us discreet gawkers.

[blyslv]

If I ran a class on sexual positions could I limit enrollment to foxy, young , buxom ladies and discriminate against the fat, old, wrinkled, ugly ones because i believe they intimidate the beautiful ones? If I were discussing sexual techniques could I limit it to straight couples because I believe the gay ones would intimidate them?
Burning Man is a place of toleration of individual differences and the harmony of diversity. I don't believe sexism has or should have a place in my community.

I camped with a woman who is seasoned. She is a mother and has seen a lot of life. When pretty young things walked by with breasts that defied gravity, she would take off her shirt and say "This is what you've got to look forward to."

Ha time and circumstance DO happen to all!

In any event TAZ, maybe it's time to start learning how to tolerate behavior in others that you don't agree with. That's radical!

[Kinetic IV]

Making a decision on who can use those limited camp resources on the basis of gender is discriminatory no matter how one packages it. It is what it is. If you're trying to protect limited camp resources just come out and say so. That goes over much better than restricting people by gender, fetish, sexual orientation, etc. It won't leave people happy but telling it like it is won't leave people all pissed off and ranting like the gender cut approach did.

[EB]

I believe we're getting hung up in the semantics -- there's a difference between discrimination and separation.

Taz, you were separated out because you were a man, that's different from being discriminated against because you were of a different race, color, creed, etc.

We separate the sexes everyday: locker room, bathrooms, dressing rooms, Hefner's grotto, etc. All for reasons that have to do with comfort and modesty.

If Spike's wants to have an all-womens event, so be it. It's their giant vampire tent.

[Taz]

I believe we're getting hung up in the semantics -- there's a difference between discrimination and separation.

Taz, you were separated out because you were a man, that's different from being discriminated against because you were of a different race, color, creed, etc.

We separate the sexes everyday: locker room, bathrooms, dressing rooms, Hefner's grotto, etc. All for reasons that have to do with comfort and modesty.

If Spike's wants to have an all-womens event, so be it. It's their giant vampire tent.

Okay, tell me the difference between discrimination and separatism in apatheid South Africa. Why couldn't we just let them be?

[Taz]

I don't believe sexism has or should have a place in my community.

Nor do I. But then, I don't necessarily believe that what you experienced was either of the above. Too many people seem to be of the mind that if a place decides to be selective in who they allow to enter that they are automatically subjecting the excluded to discriminitation. Never mind that the camp may be limited in space, resources, seating, food, booze or that they maintain numbers to keep a level of decorum or keep the gawkers at bay. There could be any number of reasons for not being let in a camp. Just because it happens doesn't mean folks should default to the opinion that they were discriminated against.

That's like saying , just because it's green doesn't mean it's green.

[Taz]

If I ran a class on sexual positions could I limit enrollment to foxy, young , buxom ladies and discriminate against the fat, old, wrinkled, ugly ones because i believe they intimidate the beautiful ones? If I were discussing sexual techniques could I limit it to straight couples because I believe the gay ones would intimidate them?
Burning Man is a place of toleration of individual differences and the harmony of diversity. I don't believe sexism has or should have a place in my community.

I camped with a woman who is seasoned. She is a mother and has seen a lot of life. When pretty young things walked by with breasts that defied gravity, she would take off her shirt and say "This is what you've got to look forward to."

Ha time and circumstance DO happen to all!

In any event TAZ, maybe it's time to start learning how to tolerate behavior in others that you don't agree with. That's radical!

Okay, let's start tolerating revenge, evil, injustice, etc. ...that'll put us alongside with the rest of the world. Hey, it's all in the name of getting along!

[Ron]

[quote="Taz"....

Okay, tell me the difference between discrimination and separatism in apatheid South Africa. Why couldn't we just let them be?[/quote]

I'll take a stab at it. :)

First of all we're not talking about the government using force to restrict public facilities along racial lines. We're talking about a private, temporary, residence choosing to allow who they wish into their home. That's a world of difference right there. I'm all for public swimming pools, schools, places of business, streets, and so on being equally open to all genders, races, and so on. But I'm also a bit supporter of a private home owner to be as bigoted as they want to be. Want to make your home a X only zone? Go to, it's your right.

Furthermore, restricting access to a sexual function along gender/orientation lines is discriminating (the act of separating one thing from the other) but it is not discrimination (the act of legally creating distinct, and preferred, classes of people) because gender is an operative attribute involved in the function. If one wants to have a party for heterosexual couples, one *must* limit access to heterosexual couples, by way of one example. Just like a football game must consist of football players, and excluding those who can't play competitively isn't discriminatory, neither is limiting the gender of the stripper to match the tastes of the audience.

Just for the first two reasons. Now you didn't get in and that never feels good. Agreed and understood. And while this might give you some insight into how it feels to be discriminated against, you really haven't been so treated. Not in the legal since, and not in any way like blacks in the U.S. or South Africa. That doesn't make it feel any better, but it's still true, seems to me.

Ron

[Kinetic IV]

Off playa this wouldn't be so big of a problem. But when you're talking about this stuff in the context of building an experiment in temporary community where many of Camp Reality's rules get suspended....that's what has people wondering why this exists when so many other problems don't.

Granted it's not legal discrimination but it still stings. And people are trying to address that in any way possible....therefore the challenges continue.

[EB]

I believe we're getting hung up in the semantics -- there's a difference between discrimination and separation.

Taz, you were separated out because you were a man, that's different from being discriminated against because you were of a different race, color, creed, etc.

We separate the sexes everyday: locker room, bathrooms, dressing rooms, Hefner's grotto, etc. All for reasons that have to do with comfort and modesty.

If Spike's wants to have an all-womens event, so be it. It's their giant vampire tent.

Okay, tell me the difference between discrimination and separatism in apatheid South Africa. Why couldn't we just let them be?

Dude, did you just play the race card in a discussion about why you didn't get in to the vampire tent? LOL.

You, Taz, (a virile male) were perceived as sexual competition by another male (vampire bouncer) in his territory (vampire tent.)

[skygod]

It seems to me what we are talking about is the relationship between the individual and the rest of the herd.
On the one hand we should be tolerant .
On the other hand, you can do what you want in your own camp.
It would be a shame if we didn't use the freedom that the Burn setting gives us to explore and experiment a little.
Can we be tolerant even of intolerance?
Maybe.
It's a good place to try. Maybe the only place.

[helitack]

I camped with a woman who is seasoned. She is a mother and has seen a lot of life. When pretty young things walked by with breasts that defied gravity, she would take off her shirt and say "This is what you've got to look forward to."

Ha time and circumstance DO happen to all!

In any event TAZ, maybe it's time to start learning how to tolerate behavior in others that you don't agree with. That's radical!

Why does this woman feel the need to show the young hardbodies "what they have to look forward to"?

Shallow thouogh it may be, some of us happen to like breasts that defy gravity.

[Badger]

Okay, tell me the difference between discrimination and separatism in apatheid South Africa. Why couldn't we just let them be?

Taz, you're grabbing at straws to enforce your contention..

A red herring some would call it.

Keep playing victim if it feeds some need.


<plonk>

[blyslv]

I camped with a woman who is seasoned. She is a mother and has seen a lot of life. When pretty young things walked by with breasts that defied gravity, she would take off her shirt and say "This is what you've got to look forward to."

Ha time and circumstance DO happen to all!

In any event TAZ, maybe it's time to start learning how to tolerate behavior in others that you don't agree with. That's radical!

Why does this woman feel the need to show the young hardbodies "what they have to look forward to"?

Shallow thouogh it may be, some of us happen to like breasts that defy gravity.

I do too. And as I was admiring a pair walking through our camp, she noticed and pulled up her shirt for my benefit and I thought it was funny.

At a certain point I reached an age when I said "Holy shit, I'm not young anymore." I can realize that by talking to 20-something people and realizing that we do view the world very differently. There is a difference between generations.

I can't speak for my friend's actions, but I know she doesn't begrudge firm breasts and those who admire them. Maybe she was just giving a reality check. You've heard the saying that "youth is wasted on the young"? It didn't make sense to me until I passed 40, then it made a lot of sense. Maybe that was her way of saying that without a megaphone.

I wish this post made a lot of sense.

[Taz]

[quote="Taz"....

Okay, tell me the difference between discrimination and separatism in apatheid South Africa. Why couldn't we just let them be?

I'll take a stab at it.

First of all we're not talking about the government using force to restrict public facilities along racial lines. We're talking about a private, temporary, residence choosing to allow who they wish into their home. That's a world of difference right there. I'm all for public swimming pools, schools, places of business, streets, and so on being equally open to all genders, races, and so on. But I'm also a bit supporter of a private home owner to be as bigoted as they want to be. Want to make your home a X only zone? Go to, it's your right.

First of all , if we could consider this a business , something that is open to the public exchanging services for payment (even though there is no payment involved) then yes this is discrimination. The bus service was privately owned that told Rosa Parks to sit in the back wasn't it? If you did this in your own home it would still be discrimination because you are supposed to abide by the rules of business. You're correct that it is permitted but it's still discrimination.

Furthermore, restricting access to a sexual function along gender/orientation lines is discriminating (the act of separating one thing from the other) but it is not discrimination (the act of legally creating distinct, and preferred, classes of people) because gender is an operative attribute involved in the function. If one wants to have a party for heterosexual couples, one *must* limit access to heterosexual couples, by way of one example. Just like a football game must consist of football players, and excluding those who can't play competitively isn't discriminatory, neither is limiting the gender of the stripper to match the tastes of the audience.

This wasn't a sexual event. It is a dance event more on the athletic side. Again it is discrimination because it did create distinct and prefered classes of people ie. prefering female over male instuctors. How was gender an operative attribute involved in the function? Name one thing that they could do that I couldn't.

Just for the first two reasons. Now you didn't get in and that never feels good. Agreed and understood. And while this might give you some insight into how it feels to be discriminated against, you really haven't been so treated. Not in the legal since, and not in any way like blacks in the U.S. or South Africa. That doesn't make it feel any better, but it's still true, seems to me.

For the reasons given, I have been discriminated against just as clearly as the blacks in the U.S. or South Africa have been. However , no court in the U.S. will hear my case because there are so many loopholes in the law. I'm just sorry BM hasn't evolved above it. Nice try , but I'm still not in agreement with you.
Ron[/quote]

[joel the ornery]

For the reasons given, I have been discriminated against just as clearly as the blacks in the U.S. or South Africa have been.

for the same duration? to the same level of cruelty?

oh fucking please....

createthe camp/experience you want, and quit your whining

you're harshing my experience.

[Kinetic IV]

For the reasons given, I have been discriminated against just as clearly as the blacks in the U.S. or South Africa have been. However , no court in the U.S. will hear my case because there are so many loopholes in the law.

Pardon me but without any doubt that is the single biggest line of bullshit I think this board has ever seen. Please! Spare us!

Besides who says you have to rely on the courts for relief? There's also the legislative branch and yes you too can influence lawmakers and get bullshit laws changed. Are you being targeted by LE? Get involved and help push a bill like several of us did in Missouri that keeps cities from taking more than 35% of their general revenue from traffic tickets. (It's called the Macks Creek Law around here). My point being if you're being discriminated against there are many, many, MANY ways to fight back. You can work on challenging medical discrimination at the state and local levels. There are so many levers of power that anyone can grab hold of and work....you just gotta use them.

I apologize for going off on a rant but damn...quit being a victim perpetuating the victim's mindset for years and years. Empower yourself! Change the damn system. And don't say you can't do it...if I can anyone can.

[helitack]

Hmmm....




























...wait...

















...wait....

















...just a second...

























...almost...





















































...belch

[Kinetic IV]

Feel better Heli?

[Taz]

For the reasons given, I have been discriminated against just as clearly as the blacks in the U.S. or South Africa have been. However , no court in the U.S. will hear my case because there are so many loopholes in the law.

Pardon me but without any doubt that is the single biggest line of bullshit I think this board has ever seen. Please! Spare us!

Pardon me but this is undoubtedly bigger bullshit I've seen on this board. Do you think that the blacks are the ONLY ones to experience discrimination? What about the Indians, the Japanese Americans in concentration camps, what about women, what about men, what about the poor, etc. Please spare me! Or did you want to tell me that the ONLY ones that can experience discrimination are black!
Join you fighting discrimination? I thought you said it was only blacks that can experience it? I just said it was hard to fight discrimination because there were so many loopholes in the law. Can you agree with that?

Besides who says you have to rely on the courts for relief? There's also the legislative branch and yes you too can influence lawmakers and get bullshit laws changed. Are you being targeted by LE? Get involved and help push a bill like several of us did in Missouri that keeps cities from taking more than 35% of their general revenue from traffic tickets. (It's called the Macks Creek Law around here). My point being if you're being discriminated against there are many, many, MANY ways to fight back. You can work on challenging medical discrimination at the state and local levels. There are so many levers of power that anyone can grab hold of and work....you just gotta use them.

Who the hell was talking about relying on courts for relief? Certainly not I because of all the loopholes in the law. I didn't even MENTION anything about relief. All I said was that there was discrimination at Burning Man and I experienced it!
Being that you DENY that I was being discriminated against , why the hell should I believe you when you say you are targeted by the LE? Why the hell should I join you fighting cities from taking 35% of their general revenues from traffic tickets? Why should I believe you're being discriminated against? Are you black?

I apologize for going off on a rant but damn...quit being a victim perpetuating the victim's mindset for years and years. Empower yourself! Change the damn system. And don't say you can't do it...if I can anyone can.

You apologize? Well you could have fooled me! Quit being a victim? Hell who believes I'm a victim? Why don't I just be apathetic and indifferent like you are?

[Badger]

Taz, honey....

Just stop.

Stop while you believe you're ahead.

In spite of what most of us here think....

I remain bored... with you,

-B

[Ron]

.... Nice try , but I'm still not in agreement with you.

Of course you're not. I'd guess you never will be. Your nose got out of joint enough that you're confusing a private theme camp with a place of business, think private homes should be subject to the same access laws as businesses, and won't see that a pole dancing party is a sexual event. Good thing my object wasn't to get you to agree with me. But you asked a question and I gave you more of an answer, with more respect, than anyone else is going to. Up to you to accept it or not, no skin of my nose either way. But as long as you're taking positions like the above don't expect many folk to be as nice to you as I have been.

Ron

[Kinetic IV]

Reread my post. I took yours, put it on split screen and responded almost point by point to what you wrote.

I have a response for everything else but I don't think you want to open a discrimination debate with me and we'll leave it at that.

[joel the ornery]

please allow this thread to die a natural death.

[The CO]

Okay, tell me the difference between discrimination and separatism in apatheid South Africa. Why couldn't we just let them be?

....OK. Were you beaten to within and inch of your life for coming to spikes? Cause under aparthied you would have been, by the police no less, black or white, for going somewhere you weren't supposed to be without the right papers.

[Cabanasprings]

Showwww me YOUR PAPERSSS!!!!!

[skygod]

Please believe me Taz, I would love to agree with you, for many reasons.
But the whole concept of discrimination is a tar baby. (Anyone old enuff to have read B'rer Rabbit?) If you try to play with it, it just gets all over you and everyone else. I don't think it's possible, even in the "enlightened" BM crowd, to even talk about the subject dispassionately.
We may all be created equal, but some people will always be more equal than others.

[theCryptofishist]

(Anyone old enuff to have read B'rer Rabbit?)

Not quite, I think, although I do know the story from somewhere. In fact, I was thinking of Tar Babies in another context--the one we were discussing on Tribe in fact. I notice no one has started that one here!


eta: whoops, just remembered that was someone else. Laugh at the goofy fishy, folks!