Discrimination at BM

[Taz]

.... Nice try , but I'm still not in agreement with you.

Of course you're not. I'd guess you never will be. Your nose got out of joint enough that you're confusing a private theme camp with a place of business, think private homes should be subject to the same access laws as businesses, and won't see that a pole dancing party is a sexual event. Good thing my object wasn't to get you to agree with me. But you asked a question and I gave you more of an answer, with more respect, than anyone else is going to. Up to you to accept it or not, no skin of my nose either way. But as long as you're taking positions like the above don't expect many folk to be as nice to you as I have been.

Ron

Gosh damn Ron, the fact that it is a private home,camp ,or whatever has nothing to do with my point. If you ,at your house or business exchange a service , say tax preparation, and "bill " me triple as that of a person or your same race, then that's discrimination. If you can't see that then your nose is out of joint.
I really don't care whether or not you agree with me or not. You see the section this topic is posted under? Experiences at Burning Man. That's exactly what this is. I'm telling you what I experienced at Burning Man , nothing more. Hell no, I don't expect you to understand. It was my experience , not yours.
Okay, I'll actually validate your claim to be a nice guy. I appreciate that. Well one thing I've learned from this is, next year I can hold my class for foxy, young , well endowed, drop dead gorgeous women only with all your endorsements. No men allowed because I don't have room, they make the women nervous, I haven't the facilities or whatever excuse I dream up of and nobody better call me discriminating.

[Taz]

I don't believe sexism has or should have a place in my community.

Nor do I. But then, I don't necessarily believe that what you experienced was either of the above. Too many people seem to be of the mind that if a place decides to be selective in who they allow to enter that they are automatically subjecting the excluded to discriminitation. Never mind that the camp may be limited in space, resources, seating, food, booze or that they maintain numbers to keep a level of decorum or keep the gawkers at bay. There could be any number of reasons for not being let in a camp. Just because it happens doesn't mean folks should default to the opinion that they were discriminated against.

Quit boring me.

[Taz]

Reread my post. I took yours, put it on split screen and responded almost point by point to what you wrote.

I have a response for everything else but I don't think you want to open a discrimination debate with me and we'll leave it at that.

The point was not to open a debate. This topic is posted under "Experiences at Burning Man". That's where people tell others what they experienced at Burning Man. Do you make it a point to invalidate what they perceive? You are also in another post called "The treatment of women at Burning Man". It's an article by a woman relating her experiences at Burning Man . Did you invalidate what she perceived with the same rethoric that you have mine? Oh no , that's not what those mean comments meant- they were really our way of saying we appreciate you. Oh , are you trying to play the victim role?
Tell you what Kinetic, I want to see you respond to her article the same way you did mine. If you don't , then in my mind you will be viewed as upholding the same sexist views that I have been subjected to. I'll be watching for you over there.

[Taz]

Okay, tell me the difference between discrimination and separatism in apatheid South Africa. Why couldn't we just let them be?

....OK. Were you beaten to within and inch of your life for coming to spikes? Cause under aparthied you would have been, by the police no less, black or white, for going somewhere you weren't supposed to be without the right papers.

No , and neither was Rosa Parks. Are you saying that means she wasn't discriminated against?

[Taz]

Please believe me Taz, I would love to agree with you, for many reasons.
But the whole concept of discrimination is a tar baby. (Anyone old enuff to have read B'rer Rabbit?) If you try to play with it, it just gets all over you and everyone else. I don't think it's possible, even in the "enlightened" BM crowd, to even talk about the subject dispassionately.
We may all be created equal, but some people will always be more equal than others.

Well if we really wanted to be indiscriminate , even to "enlightened" ones, why don't we just censor discussion altogether?

[Kinetic IV]

Reread my post. I took yours, put it on split screen and responded almost point by point to what you wrote.

I have a response for everything else but I don't think you want to open a discrimination debate with me and we'll leave it at that.

[The CO]

Wow, Concentration camps, Aparthied & Rosa Parks. Those are weighty comparisons to not being let into a private camp.

[skygod]

A friend who remembers the story told me The Fox was too slow to catch the rabbit, so the Fox made a bunny out of tar, the rabbit thought it looked cool but it wouldn't talk back. So when the rabbit hit the tar bunny to get it to talk, he got stuck and that's how the Fox caught the rabbit.

[Taz]

Okay , let's see if we can wind this thing up without further debate.
First let's talk about a principle. Work = force X distance. That's a principle isn't it? Now when is this true? On Sundays, leap year, after lunch,yesterday, today, tomorrow? Since the beginning of time!
Where is this true? In the classroom , at home, under the sea, on Mars, in the heart of the sun? It's true everywhere!
Among who is it true? Among aborigines, among Asians, among chimpanzes? It's true among everyone and everything!
That's what a principle is- it's a universal truth that holds up thoughout time , circumstances, and anywhere in the universe!
Now , what was the underlying mantra of the women's movement of the 60's- " Equal Opportunity"! What does that mean? It means unrestricted competition- the right for everyone of any race , color, creed,gender, lifestyle, economic status, etc. access to succeed or fail at a task at hand.
When I was at Spike's , was I given "equal opportunity"? Hell no! In my case it was because of sexism but it could have been any of the many other discriminations! All the other circumstances, did they have room, was it in private, did they lack resources etc. are all excuses because as I've indicated , this is a universal truth! It abridges all the boundaries, it is timeless! Those of you that speak of exceptions are yourself sexists.
As to the original question of the article," Is sexism a part of Burning Man?" Well I'll say this. It is firmly embedded in BM and has no signs of letting up.
Thank you all for participating and helping me answer my question but I hope our paths never cross again.

[Cabanasprings]

Thank you all for participating and helping me answer my question but I hope our paths never cross again.

Finally, something everyone can agree on!

[skygod]

Thank you all for participating and helping me answer my question but I hope our paths never cross again.

I should be able to cross your path if I feel like it.

[mdmf007]

Taz -

I cnnot beliee that you are comparing Apartheid, and the former south african system to your situation?

it was a private event no matter what they advertise.

Listen I own several bars in large western cities. If I dont want your ass in my place - your bounced.

Same thing on the Playa - dont want you in MY camp, MY event - bounce fool.

I know it doesnt sound very burneresque, but thats the reality of it. In the US of A you have the right to do that. Re-Read Rons posts, he put it most clearly.

later - quit your whining about it, and throw better pole parties next year so your peeps dont walk off, or man the fuck up and tell the doorman that you are fucking attending, and to get the hell out of your way. A few stones either way would have helped out a lot.

333 days -

[Kinetic IV]

Don't let the door hit you on the ass on your way out.

[skygod]

"I wouldn't join a club that would have me as a member."--Groucho Marx
Why can't I just shut up about this topic?

[Taz]

Reread my post. I took yours, put it on split screen and responded almost point by point to what you wrote.

I have a response for everything else but I don't think you want to open a discrimination debate with me and we'll leave it at that.

Kinetic, I though you didn't want to debate your or my position.

[Taz]

Thank you all for participating and helping me answer my question but I hope our paths never cross again.

I should be able to cross your path if I feel like it.

You're absolutely right skygod. Being that my presence will be far more manifest next time I only commented that it probably would be an unpleasant event should it happen. If you feel the same way are there some characteristics about yourself that I could easily identify to avoid the confrontation?

[Kinetic IV]

I think a conversation about the fundamental human rights of women with the Taliban would be more productive. Or maybe talking to a brick...the density is about the same.

[Taz]

Taz -

I cnnot beliee that you are comparing Apartheid, and the former south african system to your situation?

That's tough! If there a law against using it as a compaison? I can use whatever example I want as a parallel.

it was a private event no matter what they advertise.

That was not the issue. What about you? Are you a former South African black of the apartheid era? Are/ were you against apartheid? Did you protest it in any way? If you are not from S.A. what gives you the right to say what a private country does or treats it's citizens? It's a private country that you are not a member of! Why should they hear of your protests or allow you in their country?

Listen I own several bars in large western cities. If I dont want your ass in my place - your bounced.

No problem, I don't drink. I suppose the municipalities where you are established do not have any anti-discrimination codes.

Same thing on the Playa - dont want you in MY camp, MY event - bounce fool.

Sounds fair, what is your camp?

I know it doesnt sound very burneresque, but thats the reality of it. In the US of A you have the right to do that. Re-Read Rons posts, he put it most clearly.

Up until now I didn't know how burneresque it was , but now I do. The question was not whether or not you had the right to be sexist. It was if you believed sexism should be a part of BM. Why reread Ron's post? I know what he's saying and I disagree with it.

later - quit your whining about it, and throw better pole parties next year so your peeps dont walk off, or man the fuck up and tell the doorman that you are fucking attending, and to get the hell out of your way. A few stones either way would have helped out a lot.

What the hell are you doing telling me what to do? Do you want me telling you what to do?

[Kinetic IV]

[gyre]

If I encounter a club that restricts the crowd in some arbitrary way, I don't go or I don't go back. I haven't run into this in the desert yet.

Vote with your feet.

[skygod]

I hope you know I love you for taking a stand

[Taz]

If I encounter a club that restricts the crowd in some arbitrary way, I don't go or I don't go back. I haven't run into this in the desert yet.

Vote with your feet.

It would be nice if those camps posted next to their description, "Hey, we're ---(racists, sexists, ageists, bigots, homophobes etc.) . We discriminate against---(blacks, whites, men , women, elderly, gays, conservatives, etc.)" It would save me a whole lot of walking. Mdmf007, what was the name of your camp again?