Green Forward

Talk about your camp or project's LNT plans (and MOOP problems) here. Discuss cleanup tips. Ask questions or share ideas on what works and what doesn't.
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unjonharley
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Post by unjonharley » Fri Oct 13, 2006 9:08 am

chup wrote:I walk around the house 8 times a day turning off every god-damned light in the house that the kids leave on ! Does that count ?
/
Today, I will finish installing a window panel in the south wall over the porch steps..I made a box about one foot square as thick as the wall.. On the outside is a glass pane. On the inside a light defuser.. The walls of the box are lined with polished aluminun.( some Mothers Aluminun polish and elbow grease.)
I live in the city so there is plenty of light at night.

we0ne
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Post by we0ne » Fri Oct 13, 2006 10:40 am

Happy Birthday Unjon, keep up the green living?

Cheers
" Isn't it wonderful that no one need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world" Anne Frank

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Post by Rusted Iron » Sun Oct 15, 2006 7:15 pm

I have a couple of new trees, in pots, that are going to go into the ground, any day now.

I retired my SUV to just occasional trips, when I need to tow something, and bought a pretty clean burning Subaru, (I know I could have bought something that got better milleage but I really needed cargo space of a wagon.)

I really want to put a bank of solar powers up on the hillside, but I'm waiting until California's low-interest loan program starts, for solar installations. 2207? I think.

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diane o'thirst
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Post by diane o'thirst » Sun Oct 15, 2006 7:23 pm

I cut up my Chevron card. E-10 burns in regular gasoline cars, I am migrating over to that.

This current tank is the last Chevron will make off me.
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MikeVDS
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Post by MikeVDS » Sun Oct 15, 2006 8:13 pm

E10 works fine in all U.S. Unleaded cars from 2006 and newer. Most recent cars will run it fine, but be sure to check. Ethanol can eat away certain polymers so you might need to replace some hoses.

Where do you purchase E10? I haven't noticed it in any stations around me. I'm not so sure ethanol is the best way to go if you're willing to put in some effort. If done effeciently it is cleaner than pertrolium based fuels, but we currently lack the infrastructure. There is debate about if it even currently has a net positive gain in energy (meaning as much energy is used as gained), but it does appear that it is currently a positive gain and will continue to grow. My problem with it, is that it doesn't seem to be taking us toward a long term solution. From what I can tell ethanol does release more CO2 when burnt than it absrbs while growning (I guess from carbon absorbed through roots?). This could be wrong but based on numbers from pro ethanol sites it appears to generate positive CO2. Also increasing farmland usually decreses the amount of natural habitat, which generally will absorbe more CO2 and house wildlife.

If you can afford to run an electric car off of lithium ion batteries and buy wind and solar electricity you'd be doing pretty good. I'm not sure about pollutants while manufacturing Li batteries though. Running off lead acid creates waste problems. I think electric is the best long term solution since you'd be supporting technology which has potential to be nearly 100% "green". There is a UK company that has an air powered car (more like a golf cart going around 20mph max). It runs an electric pump to fill the tanks (I believe they said in a couple hours) and then they release air pressure through a turbine. I think they said it gets around 300 miles out of a "charge". Sounds right. I had preliminary designs to convert my car this way, but lacked the funds in college to do it, and now I lack the time. One great thing about using air pressure as a fuel is that you can fairly effeciently use regenerative breaking. I'd guess you could get 70% of your breaking power back when driven "properly". I don't know if they do but I'd assume the UK company takes advantage of this.

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diane o'thirst
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Post by diane o'thirst » Sun Oct 15, 2006 11:09 pm

I hear you. My mechanic directed me to the EPA website and read from it, saying that ethanol causes more tailpipe fumes than straight gas but there are several companies that are refining the technology to comply with EPA standards. There is a service station called Sequential in south Eugene that sells biofuels and Portland is getting some of its own. I just added a guy to my Myspace friends list that is getting the word out on biofuel stations in Oregon. He's part of a network of similar bloggers.

One thought I had after talking with my mechanic was, "The EPA are on the take and protecting Big Oil." I thought this because my friends told me they went further on one tank of gas — better mileage — and ethanol-mix fuel was cheaper than straight petrol (naturally...petrol is finite and diminishing while ethanol comes from renewable, more decentralized resources and has a smaller industrial network; not as many miles to transport it to get it distributed). It's pretty simple math that less money + fewer tankups = Big Oil's bottom line suffers. Upon further reflection, though, I saw how that line of thinking is short-sighted as well. Conspiracy theories ≠ hard facts and I'm more inclined to follow that. Is the EPA on the take? It wouldn't surprise me, they're a government agency and power corrupts. But to say that they're protecting the oil companies doesn't make much economic sense.

Most investment analysts will tell you that it's not a good idea to put all your eggs in one basket, financially. Most savvy businesses learn to diversify early on if they don't include a strategy for that in their original business models. Diversification can mean a depressed bottom line in the short run but in the end it pays off.

My mechanic would LOVE to do ethanol conversion jobs. The fact is, they're a national chain and they're under scrutiny, so they can't. The fine is $50,000. At the same time, they have to live in the community and when they're off the time clock, they come home and are listening to what their neighbours are talking about. Around here, everyone's talking about ethanol mix and bio-diesel. Part of the buzz is environmentally-related but a good mix is economy as well. Eugenians take the mantra of "buy local" seriously, because more often than not buying local is the difference between a local company/employer staying afloat and going down the tubes.

So, my supporting of ethanol is several-pronged. I have to admit that it's primarily economically-rated: America has the capability to produce it's own fuel and I'm not talking about drilling off the west coast and Alaska. There are a million acres of farmland that the government is paying farmers to let lie fallow. It is literally more lucrative for them to sit and take government subsidies than to grow crops.

Somewhere else on this board, there was talk of inedible garlic fields that the port-o-let companies dump our sewage on; they're used to scent propane and aren't consumed by people. So there is a stripe of agriculture that produces vegetable material that doesn't go into the food stream.

Suggestion: what if our nation's sewage plants turned to fertilizing non-edible plants on farms, instead of dumping effluent into our waterways? Employ a percentage of non-edible farms to grow biofuel crops, whose sole intention is to go into the energy stream. Put that together with the PMU farms, the fallow farmlands, and you have existing infrastructure that is channeled into a productive economy, that of growing biofuels.

It's pretty simplistic but it stands to reason that biofuels would be less expensive than fossil fuels, according to the same economic machine that makes agates less expensive than diamonds. The latter must be mined, and processed by huge machinery, refined by a handful of highly-trained master craftsmen, and distributed through a worldwide network; the former can be picked up in the raw on the ground, the beaches, etc., and will yield a fine, lovely, acceptable piece after a few hours in a home's rock tumbler. Same with biofuels: many people — around here, anyway — with a couple 50-gallon drums mix their own biodiesel out back. They've just eschewed a whole fleet's worth of semi rigs! Naturally the cost would be lower.

Let's continue this thought. If production of a fuel can be decentralized, with each community forming a co-op that produces its own biofuels from waste material that would be burned anyway, then why should a company have a nationwide network of tanker trucks and tanker ships like the Exxon Valdez? Mega-fleets become obsolete, or at least cut back drastically. That's an adjustment, where do we pick up the slack? A savvy junior veep could see an opportunity to get some dialog going within the trade, and calls a meeting. Let's get everyone talking and decide on standards. The emphasis is less on logistics and turns to quality control: creating a consistent, marketable product vis-a-vis the fuel.

Let's say that I fill up my Mazda Navajo's 19-gallon fuel tank with E-10, at $2 a gallon and I pay the nice man $38. Where it went 320 miles on a tankful of petrol, it now goes 400 miles which with my regular usage is a week and a half to a fortnight. I go from paying $250 a month for plus unleaded petrol with MTBE to around $100 a month for a fuel that travelled less than 30 miles from point-of-production to service station. (None of this is hard data since I've yet to tank up on E-10; give me a couple weeks, I may retract and give more accurate experiential figures)

In that hypothetical regard, a midsize SUV gets 20 - 25 miles per gallon on biofuel. This is in line with Honda's lowest fuel economy. And let's be honest here, unless you're breeding St. Bernards or you're Mormon and have nine kids, you don't need bigger than a midsize SUV. Anyway, let's say our hypothetical biofuel trade organization agrees that 25 mpg is an acceptable floor for fuel economy in the product, let's maintain that floor and work up from there. Ten years later we're seeing cars that get 80 mpg on biofuels and one vehicle can go 4, 5 even 6 months between tank-ups. Sure, each tankup would cost fairly bigtime bucks but since it only happens 2-3 times per year, it's an investment. Costco economics: one trip to Costco sees you dropping $350 but you're set for a longer period of time than if you just hopped over to Winco or Albertson's every week for the same period.

One more postulation: the Cascadia Independence Party has a plank where they want to phase out semi rig distribution networks and jump onto railroad distribution. Admittedly it would be difficult to implement this on a scale that encompasses North America, but if the distribution network was based on diesel trains, which are in place now, then biodiesel would become the leading fuel to power our transportation and distribution lines. How many miles to the gallon do diesel train engines get? Compare this economy to a convoy of semi rigs of a similar length and goods capacity and how much fuel that takes to achieve similar distribution.

Nature holds that it is more resource-wise to maintain the fully-developed, functional and contributing unit than it is to grow a burgeoning zygote to an adult. The nation's railways would need to be added on to and the trains themselves retrofitted to burn biodiesel at a rate that is equal to superior to present economy.

Whew! [drink water] Hope I didn't lose y'all during that jawing. I'm in a talky-thinky mode tonight for some reason...apologies if that got rambly.
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MikeVDS
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Post by MikeVDS » Mon Oct 16, 2006 6:20 am

I haven't finished reading your post, but I need to get to work and wanted to make a comment.

[quote]
what if our nation's sewage plants turned to fertilizing non-edible plants on farms
[/quote]

A friend's father grows grape vinyards. He used human based furtalizer for a while. It was cheaper and it was earth friendly. I'm not sure why but he stopped using it even though it was cheaper but it says something about it in its current state. So it can be done, but maybe not very well? It's not much data, I know, but somewhat interesting.

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AntiM
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Post by AntiM » Mon Oct 16, 2006 11:57 am

One more postulation: the Cascadia Independence Party has a plank where they want to phase out semi rig distribution networks and jump onto railroad distribution. Admittedly it would be difficult to implement this on a scale that encompasses North America,
Given what I know about the current rail system and the trucking industry, moving goods by rail has only limited applications. First, only dry goods are most practical, shipping anything which needs temperature control, and that's a huge range of food and other goods, requires trailers with special extra-large fuel tanks. Trains frequently get held up for myriad reasons, shipping time sensitive loads is a nightmare. And when you get right down to it, everything that goes on or off a train is done so on a semi; unless a huge amount of money is dropped into new infrastructure, there aren't enough rails into all the big new distribution centers or to the stores themselves. Trucks are a reality of distribution, rail has a place in the system, but they'd be more realistic to think of ways to encourage greener trucking practices.

RANT: Truckers hate the northwest; I despise Seattle and most of Oregon when I ride with larry. The consumers want the goods and foods which come in by truck, and for truckers to obey the Department of Transportation rules for safety, but the lack of truckstops and restrictive idling and routing and the idiotic 55mph limits, makes getting in and out of those places within the legal requirements near impossible. Idling? Men and women LIVE in those trucks, but they're expected to turn them off and make do in extremes of hot and cold weather. 55 mph just makes for impatient four-wheelers passing and cutting off trucks. The lack of truckstops means truckers have to bust ass to find a safe and legal place to park when their 11 hours is up. There are NO truckstops in Seattle, not one. There's ONE in Tacoma and it is small and crowded. Most of the time we have to head up to North Bend and even then there may or may not be a place to park. Last time we were in that area we ended up sleeping in a dusty gravel dropyard, locked behind barbed wire and yards away from a rail line which ran all night. I had to pee in a bucket. So any NIMBY motherfucker who thinks they know of better alternatives had better sit their ass in the cab of a semi for four weeks and learn how things work before they come up with bright "transit by rail ideas." There will always be trucks. If you have trucks you'd damn well better provide facilities for the safety and well-being of the truckers. No wonder there's a nationwide shortage of truckers, the job is a real pain in the ass. RANT OFF thank you.

Oh D'OT, I'm not calling you a NIMBY motherfucker, you know I wouldn't do that. I just get frustrated with politics which may be too idealistic and not grounded in dirty reality. I'd have to know more specifics about the Cascadia Indepence Party's rail plank.

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diane o'thirst
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Post by diane o'thirst » Mon Oct 16, 2006 2:45 pm

I'm not entirely convinced of it. They also have this plank that every vehicle in the region should get at least 48 mpg by 2010!! That's only three years and three months from now and would scrap everything short of a Honda
Accord or a Prius. I can't haul a horse trailer with those and I could buy a whole new vehicle with the cost of retrofitting NN to that. A little unrealistic, not to mention a recycling nightmare.
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MikeVDS
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Post by MikeVDS » Mon Oct 16, 2006 4:34 pm

Although I think it's ridiculus that people use SUVs as a daily drive and don't carpool, I think the restrictive laws are worse. There are people who need the room and use their vehicles wisely. Scout leaders, large families, sport coaches, etc. And there will always be a need for large towing capacities. In my opinion the best thing we can do is support alternative energy sources so that they develop and become a better option to even those who don't consider the big picture.

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diane o'thirst
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Post by diane o'thirst » Mon Oct 16, 2006 5:06 pm

Exactly my point. There are people who need vehicles of this nature; when others say, "You drive an SUV, you suck!" they're being as butt-headed as the jerks who drive around in monster vehicles, solo, simply for the pleasure of being the biggest dog on the block.

Last week, I went to pick up my friend at the emergency room. She was having a severe sinusitis attack and the meds they stuck her with would have made her bike ride home dangerous, so I went to get her and strapped the bike on the roof. As I was pulling out of the driveway, I paused to let a pedestrian go through.

He smiled at me, walked to precisely the middle of my front bumper, then dropped a piece of paper and, taking his sweet time, leant over to pick it up. He was lower than the hood so I couldn't see whether he was still there so I had to wait. And boy, did he make me wait. When he finally stood up, he sauntered the rest of the way clear, giving me a "heh-heh, fuck you" smirk.

No, I wasn't angry, but we just rolled our eyes at him. It didn't matter that I was doing something nice for my friend, and being a respectful and cautious motorist to him. He saw an SUV, and thought, "I'm gonna fuck with you." No good deed goes unpunished... Image
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unjonharley
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Post by unjonharley » Wed Oct 18, 2006 9:15 am

I have always pocketed my keys when not in use. This has been a good habit. No one took my car with my family in. None of the kids played drive while I steped out. Never was one for locking then in the cab.


The last few days I have been learning a new key habit. My main canvas/hemp shopping bag has a snap hook in it. If I put my keys on the hook every time. I will not forget to take my shoppig bags. Being old and forgetful, I have left my purchase on the counter. Also god knows I don't need anymore of those damn plastic bags.


Then I found if I put one bag inside the other and so on, I don'thave to mess around digging for a bag. Fill one, pull it out and he next one is ready to use. I put a paper bag or two in the bottom of the main bag. Also put the zip lock (balk buy) bags in the bottom. Each time I run out of a balk food. The empty go's in the bag.


Gave my father inlaw a real neat whined-up flash light. It was so nice I got one for myself. This one takes the beams from its LED bulbs and trains them into one strong beam. Already have a whined-up radio. Want a tv.


Yesterday I pickup a nice color tv for 18$ Goodwill. It's 12 volt 13 inch. and serves as the computer screen. ( nice big letters.) It runs off the 12volt system in the house. Not getting much solor effect today. Going to play play with some wind stuff for the winter. Been talking with some power geek about pedal power.


We are already hearing low guttural sounds from the dooms day boys. They say our national power grid is strand to the limit. Black outs are expected. YOu and I know this hog wash already. But just watch it happen $$$$$$$$ for the sake of a buck.


I be green

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unjonharley
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Post by unjonharley » Thu Oct 19, 2006 12:47 pm

Here is a green one that I did last year and repeteing this year.

I live alone and have a full size refrigorator. Also most of my cooking is from scratch dry ingredients. I store long term balk foods in the refrig too.

Wasting space in the refig in a waste of energy not to mention $$$


The cats litter comes in 2 and 3 gallon containers. The freezer holds two 2 gallon jugs of filtered water. With enough room for food. The main compartment holds three 3 gallon jugs of filtered water.. They cut down the space the frig has to cool.

This practise will give me water in case of emergencies. 13 gallons of good water can go a long way, right?

Come BM time the water is ready to go camping.

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phil
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Post by phil » Thu Oct 19, 2006 3:46 pm

> The cats litter comes in 2 and 3 gallon containers

Just tell people it's dehydrated water.

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unjonharley
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Post by unjonharley » Thu Oct 19, 2006 4:34 pm

phil wrote:> The cats litter comes in 2 and 3 gallon containers

Just tell people it's dehydrated water.
/
Saline

Toolmaker
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!

Post by Toolmaker » Fri Oct 20, 2006 8:15 am

No longer use my truck to get to work. Picked up a clown car (chevy aveo hatchback) which gets great mileage. I would have went hybrid but I have limited income and thats all we could swing this week/year/next 5 years.

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unjonharley
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Re: !

Post by unjonharley » Fri Oct 20, 2006 9:08 am

Toolmaker wrote:No longer use my truck to get to work. Picked up a clown car (chevy aveo hatchback) which gets great mileage. I would have went hybrid but I have limited income and thats all we could swing this week/year/next 5 years.



/
I have fine tuned my 69 VW van and the 90 Vanagon. The 69 get 25 hwy 20 town. The 90 gets 23 hwy 20+ town. I love watching in the mirror the people behind have auto trannies. My low gear in the 69 is about 20 feet, then second.. Get some real suprised looks.. Then they become pissed and pull around at high speeds.. The easy take off acount for some of the better mileage. The weather has held so it's the ugly trike for trips to the store.


I picked a trike model out to try to copy. It's a battery electric. I would like to make a hybread pedal/electric. Toying with the idea of 110volt. Maybe a ¼ horse.

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skygod
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Post by skygod » Fri Oct 20, 2006 9:14 am

I live where I work. No commute!
"It will seem difficult in the beginning. But everything seems difficult in the beginning."- Musashi

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phil
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Post by phil » Fri Oct 20, 2006 3:15 pm

I picked a trike model out to try to copy.
Hey, Jon -

Take a look at these:
http://www.bluevelo.com/

I'm not sure I could get into one, but they look pretty aerodynamic.

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unjonharley
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Post by unjonharley » Fri Oct 20, 2006 3:49 pm

phil wrote:
I picked a trike model out to try to copy.
Hey, Jon -

Take a look at these:
http://www.bluevelo.com/

I'm not sure I could get into one, but they look pretty aerodynamic.


/
I have seen these bodys. Some electric racers had them a few years back. As a trike the riders complained they were to low to the ground..Cars seemed not to see them . Also they could not see over the hood of cars along side. The bodys never come into uses. I think Blue Cloud Raceing of Seattle was a distributer.

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diane o'thirst
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Post by diane o'thirst » Fri Oct 20, 2006 6:10 pm

I made a big move today. I'm officially off Chevron and onto E-10 bioethanol.
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unjonharley
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Post by unjonharley » Fri Oct 20, 2006 6:58 pm

diane o'thirst wrote:I made a big move today. I'm officially off Chevron and onto E-10 bioethanol.

/
Great Green. Last nights new. The farmer in eastern Or. Are ready to grow for the fual industry. Just to know that all of ther crop will be purchased from them. The bad news is: We are runing out of well waters all over the nation. There are already water fights. Couple of weeks ago I heard some one talking about investing in water rights. He was talking in the millions of dollers. So what sounds so good right now may backfire.

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Post by diane o'thirst » Sat Oct 21, 2006 12:08 am

Fuel crops don't need to be watered with potable water. Lose the civic square fountains and we'll have enough. Leave the wells for drinking water.

Edit: Place a moratorium on swimming pools and golf courses, too. Eugene has five golf courses, how many do we need anyway?!
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AntiM
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Post by AntiM » Sat Oct 21, 2006 7:39 am

The bad news is: We are runing out of well waters all over the nation. There are already water fights.
Just ask anyone in Colorado or Utah what we think of California stealing our river water. Water rights have always been a killing issue here in the west.

Las Vegas has banned real grass lawns in the new developements. At least my outdoor water is from snowpack and the cities and counties put in watering restrictions in the summer when the water goes on. I don't have secondary water October - April/May. Do any other communities have split water sources?

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unjonharley
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Post by unjonharley » Sat Oct 21, 2006 8:25 am

Five fucking golf course in that burg? The city father should be tar and feathered. Woodburn has a dirt golf coures. After you play a hole there is a drag for you the smooth the area for the next players.

Some graves are now astro turfed.


My postage stamp yard is sifted gravel. Dug down to sand. Then put down a ground cloth. Then a coat of small gravel. Followed by larger stone. Then pea gravel and extra large gravel. The walk way is bordered with used brick. Steping stones in the center. Surrounded by gravel. The side walkway is a path of extra large gravel on top of the yard gravel. Rain water passes through and I can assume some of the street run off.

Just being green.......

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Post by AntiM » Sat Oct 21, 2006 9:27 am

I have a fair-sized backyard and a nice chunk of front lawn. The sod's been in place for 50 years. In order to xeriscape, I'd have to get a special permit from the city and hire a landscaper; homes in Ogden cannot have more than 10% of the yard (excluding trees/hedges, flowerbeds and the driveway) under gravel or cement.. I can't afford being green in this town.

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Location: Salem Or.

Post by unjonharley » Sat Oct 21, 2006 10:10 am

AntiM wrote:I have a fair-sized backyard and a nice chunk of front lawn. The sod's been in place for 50 years. In order to xeriscape, I'd have to get a special permit from the city and hire a landscaper; homes in Ogden cannot have more than 10% of the yard (excluding trees/hedges, flowerbeds and the driveway) under gravel or cement.. I can't afford being green in this town.



Here in Salem there was a tax law afoot.. It was called The Rain Tax.. People and stores were to be taxed for how much paved ground.. The reasoning was less street flooding, less drain maintance, to bring the ground table up and less river flooding.. The city console was almost eaten alive.

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phil
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Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2005 2:10 pm
Location: Codgerville

Repurposing everyday objects

Post by phil » Sun Oct 22, 2006 12:47 pm

Image

This Swiss site
http://www.atelier-v.ch/index.htm
is all about using stuff we have for other purposes: CD cases as a mini-greenhouse, waterwings for ceiling lights, binder clips to hold your towels on the wall. Some are a bit of a stretch (paper shopping bag as a purse, soda straw to hold the shopping list in front of one eye), but who can say which will be workable for you?

The site is in German, so I have no clue what purpose the flyswatter serves in this photo? Clues, anyone?

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AntiM
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Burning Since: 2001
Camp Name: Anti M's Home for Wayward Art
Location: Wild, Wild West

Post by AntiM » Sun Oct 22, 2006 1:35 pm

So you won't eat bugs while biking.

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diane o'thirst
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Location: Eugene, OR
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Post by diane o'thirst » Mon Oct 23, 2006 1:32 am

E-10 tankup mileage update...

My trip odometer reads 326 tonight, which is about how far a tank of pure 87 octane unleaded petrol used to take me. And I have more than a quarter-tank left before I redline.

I am estimating that I'm seeing at least a 25% mileage economy. On plus unleaded gas I got 17-21 mpg, now I estimate that I'm getting ~25 mpg on E-10. And the car's running just fine, thank you.

E-10 is a little pricey because right now, we're importing corn-made ethanol from the Midwest, but in a couple years the wheat farmers in Eastern Oregon will be online and the price will drop. In summation...yeah, I am SO off pure petrol. Ethanol forever.
[url=http://tinyurl.com/245sagf][img]http://tinyurl.com/2bbr28j/.gif[/img][/url][url=http://tinyurl.com/23753ws][img]http://tinyurl.com/2auqebj/.gif[/img][/url][url=http://tinyurl.com/m4y82q][img]http://tinyurl.com/l56rdn/.gif[/img][/url]

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