Why is Playa art showing up in Lexus commercials?

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unjonharley
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Post by unjonharley » Wed Nov 01, 2006 5:46 pm

robbidobbs wrote:So we're the target audience. Cool.
At least Lexus is promoting BM art instead of promoting the idea that BM is only about sex & drugs.
Has anyone asked the Belgians how much they made on the rights?
/
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It's my f..cking art and I will do what I want with it or any images of.

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Post by spotman » Wed Nov 01, 2006 6:06 pm

BigCock wrote:exits quickly holding beak. sound of vomiting heard from bathroom
quickly follows suit

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Post by helitack » Wed Nov 01, 2006 6:31 pm

Dork wrote:There's a lot of assumptions being made here. Does anyone know anything other than what was posted on the Lexus website? What did the artist get for this ad? Did BMORG actually grant permission for Lexus to use those pictures and if so how much money did they get?

Is the commercial posted anywhere we can see it?

If I make a photograph at BM, I own the copyright. If I make a photograph of someones art at BM with permission, I own the copyright of that photograph. BM cannot tell me what I can or cannot do with said photograph. Permission is not needed.
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Post by spectabillis » Wed Nov 01, 2006 6:44 pm

helitack wrote: BM cannot tell me what I can or cannot do with said photograph. Permission is not needed.
not true. http://www.burningman.com/press/pressRandR.html

ed:
geekster wrote:It was widely known before and during the event that the Uchronia people had gotten large corporate sponsorship for the project. At the time everyone was "oh, cool!".
before the event? not that many attendees even knew about it. after? i didnt know, and doubt all that many participants do.

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Post by BigCock » Wed Nov 01, 2006 6:51 pm

I've heard people say that they had trouble engaging the Belgians, trouble getting to know them and draw them into the event. There were even followup emails for next year inviting them to get more involved. If what geekster is saying is true, perhaps it's because they were fucking working.

But I'm going to go out on a limb here. I call bullshit on you geekster. Prove that the project had corporate funding. And if so, prove that the org knew so before the event. I don't believe it.

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Post by helitack » Wed Nov 01, 2006 7:02 pm

spectabillis wrote:
helitack wrote: BM cannot tell me what I can or cannot do with said photograph. Permission is not needed.
not true. http://www.burningman.com/press/pressRandR.html
BS

The rights and responsibilites contradict themselves throughout the ORG's "document". I hold the copyright of the work we did. I have a signed release. BM cannot tell me what I can do with these photographs.
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Post by spectabillis » Wed Nov 01, 2006 7:41 pm

you could certainly try, and i doubt the org would want to live with the hassle of enforcing each and every instance - but i do know of a couple of times where they have contacted people to tell them to desist.

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Post by Eric » Wed Nov 01, 2006 7:57 pm

blyslv wrote:
eric wrote:oh, and this BMCorp you're so sure will sue is the same organization that let that Discovery Channel subsidiary film on site last year- don't think their values are the same as your own)[/qoute]

It's a for-profit corporation who's only true legal duty is to maximize value for their shareholders. If that is a problem for you, I suggest that you no longer give them your money.
Problem for me? Not in the slightest. They give me my playground, I go play, I could give a flying f**k what they do with their money, or how much the Mighty 6 Shareholders make off the event.

However, I also don't freak out if I see a U-Haul or Cruise-America logo on a truck at the event like some do. I like not carrying money out there, I like the ideal of a gift economy for the week, but I am realistic enough to not expect the majority of people to live that way 24-7 in the default world.

Hell, the BMCorp doesn't even live it during the week: see Camp Arctica & Center Camp Cafe. Granted, Arctica is a life saver, but the Cafe? I think the feeling of most of Piss Clear are pretty well known on that.

And Haze, an honest welcome, but there is something to remember about Burning Man:
Haze wrote:remind you all about that lesson we learned on the playa
"We" didn't learn a lesson. You did. Everyone gets & takes different things from the event- for some it's (wonderfully) life changing, for others its a great big party in the desert. Both viewpoints are valid, but for someone to just call it a party is as wrong as someone to assume everyone has had their life changed.

You'll find some of the most jaded & snarky people you meet out there (I'll include myself in this) are just as passionate about the event as you- but in our own way.
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Post by diane o'thirst » Wed Nov 01, 2006 9:52 pm

My (neutral) take:

It can be argued that whatever business, corporation, whatever any given Burner works for is subsidizing their )*( trip.

They give you money in return for your work, and you spend that money going to the Burn. Ergo, wherever you work is giving you money to go to Burning Man and, by extension, your camp, performance or project.

I think the word here is "underwriting."
[url=http://tinyurl.com/245sagf][img]http://tinyurl.com/2bbr28j/.gif[/img][/url][url=http://tinyurl.com/23753ws][img]http://tinyurl.com/2auqebj/.gif[/img][/url][url=http://tinyurl.com/m4y82q][img]http://tinyurl.com/l56rdn/.gif[/img][/url]

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Post by geekster » Wed Nov 01, 2006 11:33 pm

It's November now, about the time when the post-event enthusiasm is dying out and things in the online BM forums devolve into whining and bitching until people start getting excited in the Spring when the weather gets better and we have more daylight.

See y'all next spring.
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Post by actiongrl » Thu Nov 02, 2006 6:21 am

" Did BMORG actually grant permission for Lexus to use those pictures and if so how much money did they get? "

No, we did not. They never requested permission.

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Post by helitack » Thu Nov 02, 2006 6:34 am

I would like to see the cite, in US Code, that allows a corporation to dictate what an artist can do with a copyrighted image made on public land.
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Post by BigCock » Thu Nov 02, 2006 6:34 am

[quote="geekster"][/quote]
That whining and bitching comment was a bit patronizing. This is clearly an important issue and a thoughtful discussion.

Hi Actiongrl!
The media rules are pretty clear on this, but I couldn't find anything on the Artery/curation side. Is there a rule against corporate funding of major projects?

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Post by Apollonaris Zeus » Thu Nov 02, 2006 7:29 am

actiongrl wrote:" Did BMORG actually grant permission for Lexus to use those pictures and if so how much money did they get? "

No, we did not. They never requested permission.
And what form of action do you think will take place by the Bmorg, Actiongirl?

I too take photos and sell them to magazines and some I sell as prints.

All of the profits end up at BM anyway.


AIIZ

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Post by actiongrl » Thu Nov 02, 2006 8:12 am

You agree to a set of terms and conditions by entering the Burning Man event. It's an event held on land that we lease, which allows us to set up parameters for image use once you've entered the gates. By entering that area you are making a contract not to publicly use any imagery obtained therein without written permission from Burning Man. To print a photo in a magazine, to sell prints, or indeed to put video footage in a commercial one must obtain written permission in the form of a countersigned agreement from BRC LLC.

We have pursued violations thereof on many occasions and have indeed prevailed.

So how will this proceed? Depends. Right now we're finding out which videographer provided the footage and talking with the artists about how that happened. Since I haven't heard their explanation yet I await that information before any decisions are made.

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Post by blyslv » Thu Nov 02, 2006 8:25 am

Eric, my comment wasn't directed at you personally, it was more of the "royal you".


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Post by throwingthunder » Thu Nov 02, 2006 9:32 am

Wow, such a messy little can of worms...

My initial question "does it matter?" got so many opinions. Apparently, to some degree or other, it does matter to each of us.

I'm inclined - on another rare occasion - to agree with Eric. Why? Because that starving artist bs is just that!

I do tend to think of art on the playa in the parameter of art for art's sake, i.e. after provoking thought for a week, much is destroyed, many by fire.

Personally, I didn't like the installation but it certainly has done an excellent job of instigating animated conversations! In that vein 'Uchronia' is what I always hope Burning Man art is all about.

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Post by Lassen Forge » Thu Nov 02, 2006 11:01 am

Interesting... my previous post here from early this AM vanished, and was replaced by AG's. VERY interesting...

Conspiracy? Or coincidence? Not the first time I've had something like that happen, either.

What would be nice is instead of my posts vanishing, if the spammers (like the cellphone guy that hit us just after 9 AM) would be deleted with as much efficiency. *That* would be kewl.

My real question is this - how long will *this* post remain before it mysteriously "disappears" as well...

bb

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Post by mdmf007 » Thu Nov 02, 2006 12:47 pm

:lol:
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Post by mdmf007 » Thu Nov 02, 2006 12:50 pm

I like the commercial -and say way to go Uchronia. If i could sell my art for some dough I would.

Its not like the had ilm crws on the playa shoting and closing off areas.

later all - congrats Uchronia

see you in 300 days!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by actiongrl » Thu Nov 02, 2006 1:32 pm

If it's any consolation I had a post disappear from this thread earlier today too. I definitely didn't delete your post. I've had a couple of posts disappear in the past year or so. It's strange.

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Post by pinemom » Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:02 pm

...me too BBsue and actiongrl,
but I thought it was cause I was buzzed! BAAAAAHAHAHAAAAaaaaaaaaaa
...and didnt hit the right button.....



edidteddddd to spell action right!
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Post by spectabillis » Thu Nov 02, 2006 5:53 pm

havent noticed the post thing, but dont think its anyone - no matter what when you edit it leaves the timestamp and owner of the person making the change.

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Post by helitack » Thu Nov 02, 2006 6:25 pm

actiongrl wrote:You agree to a set of terms and conditions by entering the Burning Man event. It's an event held on land that we lease, which allows us to set up parameters for image use once you've entered the gates. By entering that area you are making a contract not to publicly use any imagery obtained therein without written permission from Burning Man. To print a photo in a magazine, to sell prints, or indeed to put video footage in a commercial one must obtain written permission in the form of a countersigned agreement from BRC LLC.

We have pursued violations thereof on many occasions and have indeed prevailed.

So how will this proceed? Depends. Right now we're finding out which videographer provided the footage and talking with the artists about how that happened. Since I haven't heard their explanation yet I await that information before any decisions are made.
Then I would like to see the lease, and where specifically in the lease, the copyrighted material of an attendee can be dictated by a corporation leasing a piece of public land.
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Post by Bin Noddin » Thu Nov 02, 2006 8:43 pm

T'ain't in the lease - its in the agreement between BMORG and the participants - a contract between you and the Hatted One.
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Post by can't sit still » Thu Nov 02, 2006 10:47 pm

There is one other thing to keep in mind. I was told that the Belgians spent $300,000. I was later told it was $500,000
Whatever amount it was, it was one hell of a project. If sponsors were the only way to produce such a monument, the question is; was the positive of bringing the waffle into existence and then burning it,,of far greater value than the negative of having Lexus commercialise the Waffle. The commercialism didn't sully the playa. It came later.

The spectacle of Uchronia burning will be remembered decades after the lexus ad is long forgotten.

We all know that art installations would be much smaller without grant money. I doubt that the ORG would want to put $300--$500K in a single installation. Was sponsorship the only way to bring the waffle into existence? Was it worth it?

It's ironic to consider; the Belgians said Uchronia was a message from the future. Could that be future commercialism?
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Post by Toolmaker » Fri Nov 03, 2006 6:41 am

helitack wrote:Then I would like to see the lease, and where specifically in the lease, the copyrighted material of an attendee can be dictated by a corporation leasing a piece of public land.

Not really a lease issue but contract law. The land use is handled by the org. Therefore it is not public per se. It is held by the org during the term to do with as the org pleases as long as they dont screw up their agreement with BLM et al.

As a participant you agree to everything the org lays out upon entrance. As far as cameras go I understand there is a contract that is signed to further that agreement.

I for one would be happy to see ALL cameras banned! I do NOT plan on having a camera at BM.

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Post by helitack » Fri Nov 03, 2006 6:50 am

What contract with BM?
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Post by Toolmaker » Fri Nov 03, 2006 7:10 am

helitack wrote:What contract with BM?
http://www.burningman.com/whatisburning ... at_is.html
Q. What is the policy on taking pictures?
A. Film and video cameras are forbidden without permission. All video cameras must be registered and tagged. This is to protect the privacy of participants and artists alike. Use Agreement forms for personal video cameras will be available upon arrival at the Gate, the Greeter's Station or Playa Info. If you are considering filming or videotaping for professional purposes, you must have a commercial agreement on file with the Media Team prior to your arrival onsite. Commercial use of images taken at Burning Man without permission is subject to cunning legal action and punishable by death. This includes amateurs and professionals who capture images.


http://www.burningman.com/press/pressRandR.html
RIGHTS AND RESPONSIBILITIES FOR MEDIA AND PARTICIPANTS

As a participant or a member of the media, you should consider your rights and responsibilities for yourself and toward others in the community. Burning Man is committed to preserving the uniquely creative and noncommercial character of this event. These rules have been established in order to do so.


Please read the information below, you'll find specific information covering:

Guidelines and requirements for filming, video and still photography coverage of the event
Rights and responsibilities of photographers, videographers and audiographers
Participant rights and responsibilities
Artist rights and responsibilities
Burning Man rights and responsibilities
If you have any questions regarding any of these rights and responsibilities, contact press(at)burningman(dot)com.




Guidelines for filming, video and still photography of the event

The easiest way to determine whether you have to register your camera is as follows: All video cameras must be registered and have a tag attached to them. If your digital camera can record even a few seconds of motion imagery, it is considered a video camera.
If you are taking photos or shooting video only to show your friends and family, you can register your video camera by filling out a Personal Use Agreement at Playa Info in Center Camp. You do not have to register your still photo camera if you are just shooting for friends and family.
If you are shooting still photography, video or are recording audio for any reason other than to show your friends and family, you must register, preferably in advance of the event, with the Media Team. You can start the registration process by emailing press(at)burningman(dot)com or reading through the Press Here section of the website.
If you have registered your video camera via a Personal Use Agreement, you can not sell it or make any other use of the photos you take without first obtaining permission from the Burning Man Project.
Before members of the media can make any use of the images recorded at the event, other than for personal use, they must obtain written permission from Burning Man. Such written permission will be limited to the particular project described, and may be subject to restrictions. Written permission can be granted only by Marian Goodell, Mistress of Communications.
One of the abiding principles of Burning Man is that participants do not interfere with the immediate experience of other participants. As a member of the media, your are expected to be respectful and comport yourself accordingly. If you do, your coverage will be far more authentic and meaningful.
If any participant asks you to stop filming, you must stop immediately. If you continue to photograph or film, you face the possibility of being escorted from the event.
The copyright of any unique design, written work, artwork or performance is owned by the person or group of people who created it. You must ask permission before filming or photographing such artwork and performances and obtain signed model/property license(s) or release(s) from all appropriate parties. You may not make any use of images of such designs, artworks or performances without obtain a release or license from the creator(s).
You should ask for permission before photographing or filming any participant. If you are planning to use this imagery to show anyone other than your friends and family, you should obtain a written release from anyone you photograph, film or otherwise record.
The Burning Man name, logo, and Black Rock City-specific imagery are the property of the Black Rock City LLC. None of these items can be used in association with any commercial venture, advertising campaign, nor sold or transferred to a third party, without prior written consent from Black Rock City LLC.
Black Rock City-specific imagery includes images of the Man and Burning Man commissioned artworks, aerial views of Black Rock City and any other imagery that can be identified specifically with the Burning Man event. If you have any questions, email press(at)burningman(dot)com.
If you are considering any commercial use of still photos, video or audio recorded at Burning Man, you must provide a copy of your work to the Burning Man archive within 90 days of the event. If your work requires post-production, you must provide a copy as soon as it is completed.
You will be required to grant Burning Man a license to use such images, film, video and sounds for Burning Man art shows, the Burning Man newsletter, and at special Burning Man events, including our San Francisco-based Flambé Lounges and for video or film made by or on behalf of Burning Man. In addition, if Burning Man receives requests from print and broadcast media during the year for images and footage, we will direct interested parties to individuals who have contributed to the archive. In cases of such referral, you are free to negotiate usage terms and fees accordingly, provided Burning Man has approved the intended use.
Burning Man is a private event that is held on public land. All members of the media are asked to register with organizers in advance of the event. Filmmakers or anyone shooting video for use other than to show friends and family are required to register as press, must submit a proposal for their project and must get approval from the Burning Man Project before filming begins.
Any filmmaker who attends the event and has not registered or received approval for their project is trespassing. Burning Man reserves the right to take any necessary action against trespassers. Trespassers have no rights to any use of images obtained at the event.
Members of the media have the responsibility to check into Media Mecca upon arriving at Burning Man.
Members of the media have the responsibility to participate and the right to be respected as a participant. As a participant, members of the media have the responsibility to be courteous to Black Rock City citizens and respect their rights to privacy. Those who do not respect these rights will be asked to leave.
Members of the media have the legal responsibility to comply with all domestic and international laws concerning copyright, trademark, intellectual property and privacy concerning any recording or filming at the event.
The name "Burning Man" is trademark protected. Members of the media have the responsibility to respect domestic and international trademark law. If you have any question about appropriate use of the Burning Man trademark, contact press(at)burningman(dot)com.
Burning Man will not grant permission to stock agencies to film or record the event.

Photographer/Videographer/Audiographer Rights and Responsibilities (Personal Use)
You have the right to express yourself and create art as a photographer, videographer and/or audio artist.
If you are filming or videotaping for personal use, you have the responsibility to check in at Playa Info, sign a personal use agreement, and get your camera tagged. This will let others know that you have obtained permission to use your camera. Unless you sign a personal use agreement and obtain a camera tag, you do not have any right to record images at the event.
You have the responsibility to be respectful to people you wish to record and to seek permission from them before recording their likeness or voice.
You may use any images that you obtained at the event only for personal use. No commercial use whatsoever may be made of any such images.
Those who cannot enjoy their rights without acting responsibly may be escorted out of the event.

Participant Rights and Responsibilities
You have the right to ask someone to stop taking a picture of you, recording your image or recording your voice in any way. However, keep in mind the nature of radical self-expression, capturing expression is a form of self-expression.
You have the right to know what someone plans to do with your image.
If a photographer or videographer plans to use your image or images of your artwork for commercial purposes, you can allow her or him to do so by signing a model release or license form. (FYI: In certain circumstances, the publishing of images of a participant may not require a signed model release (e.g., news and some editorial articles).
All video cameras and film cameras must be tagged. If you see someone using a camera or recording device of any kind without a tag, request the videographer or filmmaker to get a tag at Playa Information if he or she is recording for personal use; or, if a member of the media or commercial filmmaker, at Media Mecca. Also, please point out to a Ranger the person who is filming or recording without a tag on their camera.
If someone is disrespectfully using a camera or recording device of any kind, get the tag number and tell a Ranger.

Artist Rights and Responsibilities
You have the right to protect the image of your artwork or performance.
You have the right to ask someone to stop taking images of your art or performance if you don't approve.
You have the right to be credited for authorship of your artwork in any commercial use of your work, and perhaps to receive a payment.
You have the right to enforce copyright and trademark ownership of your unique work. To have the greatest legal protection, artists should apply for a copyright. (See www.loc.gov for copyright forms and information from the federal government.)
Photographers and videographers should obtain your signature on a release or license in order to make any use of images of your work for commercial purposes. Images used in editorial works (e.g., news or editorial articles) may not require a signed release. However, any image that contains identifying features of Burning Man (e.g., the Man, lampposts, street signs, other art, etc., or where Burning Man has funded the work of art), must also receive permission from Burning Man and/or affected people and artists.
In cases of editorial use, such as news or editorial magazine articles, Burning Man encourages the media to credit specific artists.

Burning Man Rights and Responsibilities
The name "Burning Man" and all images of the Man, city layout, lampposts, street signs and commissioned theme artwork are protected under copyright and intellectual property laws, and cannot be used for commercial purposes without written permission of Burning Man.
We will respond to reasonable, timely media inquiries made in the spirit of good journalism and Black Rock citizenship.
Burning Man has the responsibility to create an environment for the citizens of Black Rock City that does not tolerate rude or irresponsible use of photographic or video recording equipment. Persons who cannot respect the rights and wishes of others with respect to photographs, video, or recordings of any kind will be asked to leave.
Burning Man reserves the right to disallow the use of Burning Man-related imagery and recordings of any kind for commercial or unapproved editorial use, particularly if we determine that such use(s) may undermine the personal expression and privacy of participants or the integrity of the event.




JUST A COUPLE THINGS FROM WWW.BURNINGMAN.COM

Found the sections on photo and video and press in about 12 seconds. Seems pretty clear to me, in fact I have found damn near all the information I needed right from the website. one of the first things I saw was that by entering the gates of the event your are agreeing to a whole lot of stuff. This kind of contract is quite common at public events. For instance and concert you goto usually has a contract that you agree not to be a fucktard or else you can get ejected without refund of ticket price.


if you were referencing the contract between the org and blm et al I cant help ya there.. again the www.burningman.com website might have some things about the contract between uncle sammy and the llc.

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Post by actiongrl » Fri Nov 03, 2006 7:18 am

The contract would be the one you make by entering the event, same as when you enter any establishment that asks you to not film inside or states that you can't use imagery without their permission.

Further, if one is a professional shooter who knows he/she will have commercial intent, one's required to fill out an agreement to that effect and state what they will do with their imagery.

But even without it, use of the ticket and/or entry into the area creates a contract that you agree to abide by all posted policies and guidelines, including "no commercial use of imagery without written permission."

If someone asks for permission to use an image of their own work, it's not like we want to stand on their tailfeathers, and we grant permissions like that all the time, but asking everyone to request permission helps to uphold the requirement equally and allows us the power to enforce it when serious violations of privacy or intellectual property *do* occur. It's a cooperative relationship for all of us to prevent aggregious violuations thereof.

Commercial use, by the way, is defined as any use beyond sharing photos personally with friends and family.

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