All Burning Man Images reduced to Printing Cost

karlbaba · Post by **karlbaba** » Thu Dec 14, 2006 6:25 pm

Burner Image Special until Christmas - All Burning Man Images reduced to Printing Cost

As a gift to the wonderful Burning Man Community and particularly my friends. I've reduced the prices in my Burning Man Gallery to what my printer charges me. Shipping is the same and I make no profit from it.

Click on the link to go to the gallery

An 8x10 that usually costs $27.99 now costs $3.56

A 20x30 that usually costs 199.99 now costs $23.75

My printer offers Fed-ex if you need it before Christmas but regular mail is cheaper. I'll jack my prices back up sometime between Christmas and New Years. I recommend the Luster Paper. Email me if you want to order something really large so I can ensure that the file has the resolution for the job. (or I'll update my captions to tell you how big they'll go)

Those interested in flaming me will have more company on my image thread further down the page, no offense taken.

Enjoy

Peace and Love

Karl

helitack · Post by **helitack** » Thu Dec 14, 2006 7:09 pm

Jeebus thats cheap. My prints are $350 no matter what time of year it is.

karlbaba · Post by **karlbaba** » Thu Dec 14, 2006 7:40 pm

I don't mean to make life rough for other photographers. I think Burning Man, with its gifting traditions, is an exceptional case.

For folks who want other categories of prints, I usually adjust price based on financial need if somebody asks but otherwise try to stay even with other decent but not renowned photographers.

Tough balance to strike sometimes.

Peace

Karl

Badger · Post by **Badger** » Thu Dec 14, 2006 8:10 pm

You're still a loser for pushing your wares over here on the board.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Thu Dec 14, 2006 8:48 pm

Wonderful!

Burning man is a fast education in the limitations of photography.

Dr. Pyro · Post by **Dr. Pyro** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 2:07 pm

I'd consider buying some, except that they are noting exceptional, frankly are boring, lifeless, and without any artisitic merit whatsoever, and are nothing I haven't seen a jillion times in lesser sites than this one. And besides, I'll be damned if I'm going to pay one red cent on your pointless photography. Of course, your mileage may vary.

Glasshatchet · Post by **Glasshatchet** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 2:26 pm

I wouldn't say the work is completely without merit Dr. P. -

I busted a nut on "Amandas Senior Portrait."

skygod · Post by **skygod** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 2:27 pm

Dr. Pyro wrote:And besides, I'll be damned if etc, etc

HoleyMoley Doc!
I don't need any pix but I'd pay good money for some of that brutal honesty.

karlbaba · Post by **karlbaba** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 2:33 pm

Hi Pyro

I expect my images will get better once i've covered the obvious and a more artistic interpretation sinks in. That's just beginning to happen with my landscape photography.

I'm sure there are folks here who would like something that evokes the event for them, like a crass postcard, and may enjoy the offer.

If you don't, that's just fine with me because I really don't make even a cent on this deal. I did spend a few hours making it possible by reducing all the prices one by one, calculating the costs, posting it on the net, and so on.

But that's Burning Man for you. People spend money and time trying to offer something and other's diss it.

The artists that I have provided free files too have been happy and nobody has requested their image removed, so I feel good about my relationships with the ones that matter to me.

How you choose to communicate reflects you as much as my photography reflects me.

Peace

Karl

Post by **AntiM** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 2:37 pm

The only reason I haven't yanked this thread as commercial is because you've stated you aren't making a profit. Really walks the line however.

karlbaba · Post by **karlbaba** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 2:48 pm

[quote="Glasshatchet"]I wouldn't say the work is completely without merit Dr. P. -

I busted a nut on "Amandas Senior Portrait."[/quote]

Hey, Amanda and her family were totally stoked! I gave them a deal too.

That was my first time doing a young woman's senior portait and was happy to offer the style she wanted rather than what the straight laced traditional local photographers might offer.

I guess Radical Inclusion depends on what brand of fur coat and leather boots you wear.

peace

Karl

karlbaba · Post by **karlbaba** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 2:56 pm

[quote="AntiM"]The only reason I haven't yanked this thread as commercial is because you've stated you aren't making a profit. Really walks the line however.[/quote]

Hi Anti

Your welcome to yank the thread and I won't feel wronged. Like I said, I'm not trying to scam ya'll here. If it rubs ya wrong, then take it down.

I've found that a lot of folks work so hard on their art cars and camps that they wind up with little or no time to take pictures themselves. I'm not sure what they do if they want images if that info isn't available.

I do respect the non-commercial nature of the event itself, but we all spend buck before and after it, and the artists sell the art they didnt burn. Sometimes a self-righteous taliban-like anger seems justified when somebody gets close to a slippery slope but I think we should always check our assumptions.

I live in a National Park. Some employees here love to jump down the neck of the tourists if they see them feeding a squirrel. Perhaps those tourists, even with love in their hearts, shouldn't feed the squirrels, but the road rage that comes from the offended often seems to be a repressed expression from within more than an actual response to the offense.

Opps. Now I've wasted a bunch of time typing and it'll hurt more if the thread get's yanked.

Oh well

peace

karl

thisisthatwhichis · Post by **thisisthatwhichis** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 3:08 pm

Karl, it's just that this is not the forum....

Nobody wants to see your ware's here. If you want to gift it to the community with no commerce(read $$) involved, you would get a much better reception.

If you want to be re-imbursed for your costs, just take it somewhere else....

My Nickel.....

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 4:31 pm

Zo Karl, are you being reimbursed for your costs?
How much money do you have in your cameras and lenses?
How much overhead in your vehicles, your time, the space used, the loss in opportunity cost and so on?
Covering printing costs alone doesn't cover any of that, does it?
Are these complaints confusing commerce and profit?

It sounds like a gift to me.

When someone brings me groceries from reno on the playa, and I pay them back the cost of the food, is that against the rules?

I think there should be an area on here for burners who are engaged in commerce for profit, especially business directly related to art and the art of burning man.
In case some people haven't figured it out, commerce is still how burning man gets paid for every year.
Not every burner has a trust fund!

If that's not good enough, buy one of my 'No Commerce Zone' t-shirts and protest by wearing it.

Dork · Post by **Dork** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 4:52 pm

I think the main issue is that this is someone linking to their commerce site and advertising a sale. Offering something at cost in order to generate interest or clear out inventory is nothing new.

Maybe in this case it really is meant as a gift, but we have no way to tell and the end result is the same.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 5:10 pm

I know others have suggested it, but why not a place for supporting burners who earn a living?
It could be clearly labeled and a distinct section.
When commerce is useful to burners such as art or art supplies, it seems like a useful thing for the event as well.
Just like the burning man posters, no one has to buy anything.
That would clarify any issues.

madmatt · Post by **madmatt** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 5:34 pm

AntiM wrote:The only reason I haven't yanked this thread as commercial is because you've stated you aren't making a profit. Really walks the line however.

Let's repeat that - really walks the line - just because it's (barely) within the rules doesn't mean it's good.

If he sells his shit here (at no profit) then this entire board will be an endless jungle of shit for sale in a week flat.

I'll bet lots of people (including me) would have no issue at all with you selling your shit over on Craigslit!

K-mom · Post by **K-mom** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 5:36 pm

There's the forum 'Shared Resources' - and note the word SHARED. Profit or no, commerce is still trading of materials for currency.
To develop a forum or online collective for BM professionals, art supplies, whatever, it might be better to develop a separate web site. I would say use these boards as a way to meet and recruit, then send them to the second site. Realistically, since it goes against one of the key principles of BM itself, this kind of stuff should be kept a safe distance from the organizers and staff of the event.

(there goes my nickel)

Post by **AntiM** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 6:07 pm

From the Terms of Service:

#5
Non Commercial Use by Members. The Eplaya is for the personal use of individual Members only and may not be used in connection with any commercial endeavors. Organizations, companies, and/or businesses may not become Members and may not use the Eplaya for any purpose.

As much as it would be nice for some burners, there is no section for commerce here. That's an entirely different crate of eggs, and the line would be blurred even further. I didn't make the rules, I've just been asked to keep an eye out.

helitack · Post by **helitack** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 7:17 pm

You said - "I live in a National Park. Some employees here love to jump down the neck of the tourists if they see them feeding a squirrel. Perhaps those tourists, even with love in their hearts, shouldn't feed the squirrels, but the road rage that comes from the offended often seems to be a repressed expression from within more than an actual response to the offense"

Me too...I love to "chat" with visitors who I observe feeding wildlife, or stopping in the middle of the road to take a photo, or chunk some trash out, then they claim that "they didn't know it wasn't allowed". Bullshit. Some of us have jobs that require us to deal with boneheads that do these kinds of things. Is it fun sometimes? You bet. What did your above statement have to do with your selling your prints on a non-commercial board? Nothing.

That being said...

A digital camera does not an artist make...

MikeVDS · Post by **MikeVDS** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 7:48 pm

I personally appreciate that this post is left on the board. Looking at what he's doing, it passes the smell test. To me this is merely a burner helping other burners out. We all have limits to how much we can help and he makes his limits reasonable and clear, which overall makes it seem basically like a gift. If they were at no cost to those receiving them it's possible he'd get more requests than he can handle, both in printing time and cost of raw material. It's obvious that the fee is only nominal, protecting him from abuse from anyone browsing this forum and allows him to actually make this offer (an assumption that he's not abundantly wealthy).

As stated before his costs don't appear to include time, and non-consumable materials (like camera etc). Those he's gifting to the community, but requires you to purchase the raw material at no profit to him.

karlbaba · Post by **karlbaba** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 9:52 pm

[quote="Dork"]I think the main issue is that this is someone linking to their commerce site and advertising a sale. Offering something at cost in order to generate interest or clear out inventory is nothing new.

Maybe in this case it really is meant as a gift, but we have no way to tell and the end result is the same.[/quote]

I think Dork's point is one of the better ones here. How about if the powers that be make a point to delete this thread after Christmas so there isn't a residual benefit to me? Again, if the moderaters want to axe the thread now, don't let me stop you.

I just can't see a way to offer folks images without some means of communicating it, but I understand this forum is touchy about anything that approaches commerce.

To clarify a point, the money for the prints goes straight to the company that prints the images and I don't see any of it. It's not that I'm being reimbursed, I've stepped away from the whole process. I have no stock to clear out. You could upload your own photos to the same service and pay a similar price (I pay about 16% higher prices because of charges they make to me for having a pro account)

Somebody sent me a private message (which is generally a classy way to communciate) and further pointed out his views on commerce. Since I got typing on it, I thought I'd share an edited version what I wrote here:

As an artist, I live on a shoestring and can't even afford the best tools of the trade, much less hand out pictures to everybody. Burning Man is murder on the gear so taking my best camera on the playa is a real risk and burden. I have burned and sent out dozens of CDs to Artists and participants at my own expense, but given my means, there are obviously limits. So far, the only BurningMan Prints that have gone out were free or at cost, so I'm only in the hole regarding Burning Man. My profit has all been in new friends and connections.

I'm not even touching the money from this deal, it just goes straight to the printer just as if folks were printing their own pictures.

I think it's lame that some burners expect everybody to sacrifice every last dime to them but offer nothing but criticism. I haven't noticed this attitude from the artists themselves but rather folks who define their identity as Burners and assume the same Taliban righteousness as any fundamentalist.

So I think it's fine if folks want to have other opinions and criticize me. I think a debate about commerce around the event is appropriate.

The way I look at it, A commerce free event doesn't mean squat if you don't take the principles and actions out into the outside world.

I'm donating images to charities and auctions all the time, and also not making money on this offer. If somebody has less money, I give them better deals on my other images and services. I hope those who want to jump on my back are doing the same. I notice their profiles are mostly anonymous.

If Burner ideals aren't adapted to the outside world, it just becomes a make-believe unsustainable dress up play where people save up and spend enough money before the event to get them through the week.

Some of what I'm doing may be against the grain but joining the herd is very anti-BurningMan but very BurningMan at the same time. The pressure to conform (while being outwardly non-conformist) is one of the few negative sides to Burning Man that I've experienced. Thus I'm exploring expanding the Spirit of the event to my real life where I support myself, while testing the Letter of tradition.

Peace

Karl

Badger · Post by **Badger** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 12:58 am

Pure and fucking simple it is commerce.

Period.

Why this debating about whether the king is wearing Saran Wrap or no clothes at all.

Couch the photo sales thing under the rubric of BM Fund Raiser(TM) and be done with it.

stickysunset · Post by **stickysunset** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 5:50 am

i rarely post eplaya....but this one screams for a reply.

first, i m surprised this sales ad thread is here.
second, i totally agree w/ badger.
third, anitM...make this ad go bye-bye before it sets a precedent.

sunset

MikeVDS · Post by **MikeVDS** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 6:50 am

Do any of you who oppose this thread really believe he's doing it for personal monetary gain?

Do you believe that deleting this thread fits the spirit of the rule?

karlbaba · Post by **karlbaba** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 7:45 am

[quote="Badger"]Pure and fucking simple it is commerce.

Period.

Why this debating about whether the king is wearing Saran Wrap or no clothes at all.

Couch the photo sales thing under the rubric of BM Fund Raiser(TM) and be done with it.[/quote]

You can't raise funds if there are no funds being raised.

On the other hand, since the ratio of angry folks to folks who appreciate the gesture favor's deleting the thread, I'd like to request Anti-M delete the thread as well. (Cool that she has a web page and isn't an anonymous person communicating in ways that most never would, on or off the playa.)

Now of course Eplaya has it's own culture and those who don't like the rough and tumble are chased away. I didn't find that kind of rude culture at Burning Man but perhaps I didn't visit the right/wrong camps.

Still, I'm guessing that if you are concerned about how the postings on this forum affect and reflect BurningMan, it's image, principles and culture, that the negative, rude vibe here has a worse effect than anything I'm trying to do.

Peace

Karl

MikeVDS · Post by **MikeVDS** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 8:34 am

Now of course Eplaya has it's own culture and those who don't like the rough and tumble are chased away. I didn't find that kind of rude culture at Burning Man but perhaps I didn't visit the right/wrong camps.

You just look in the wrong places. It's there. And to me it's part of burningman.

Why delete your post? Don't back down cause some pussies, who are too obtuse to see what you're doing, are whining cause a "$" hurts their precious little eyes. Around here they'd have you be perfectly "Burner-Politically Correct". The way you could word your post B-PC is to say you'll print the photos if they send you the ink and paper etc.. Now it becomes a gift. Also point out that if it's too much trouble for them to find and send the paper you'd gladly just fucking buy it for them if they send you what it costs you and you'll send them the receipt so they can be assured they didn't send you one penny more. I say, fuck that shit. It's six one way half a dozen of another.

If people around here are jerks tell them to fuck off. If their burners you should be able to say that to them and hug a minute later. You shouldn't have to obey some burner PC etiquette and walk on eggshells just to help some people out. If *you* feel you're doing something wrong, then yeah, get the hell out of here, but if not, you're just as welcome as the rest of us jerks.

karlbaba · Post by **karlbaba** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 10:26 am

I feel like I stood my ground for as long as needed.

Kinda like if I wandered into the camp nextdoor and said "I'm going on an ice run, anybody who wants ice, give me what it costs."

Say 9 people said "Screw yourself, bring us free ice or GTF out of our camp." and a couple said "Thanks, here ya go"

I might get ice for the ones who wanted it, but I wouldn't just stand there in unwelcome space. It's their camp after all.

So here. If the majority want me to GTF out. Fine. I have other places to go. If there are others who feel differently, they are the ones who should speak up or they surrender their camp to the others.

The way the country is headed, I feel like "the silent majority" needs to speak up before we have fascism. If there is no "silent majority" then fighting the inevitable is pointless.

Peace

karl

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 10:49 am

Well, I happen to think you're a double fuckwit for making money off both Yosemite and Burning Man, but I'm not about to make a case for what's commerce and what's not on the BBS. People are selling & paypalling all kinds of shit here.

karlbaba · Post by **karlbaba** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 11:20 am

[quote="Bob"]Well, I happen to think you're a double fuckwit for making money off both Yosemite [u]and[/u] Burning Man, but I'm not about to make a case for what's commerce and what's not on the BBS. People are selling & paypalling all kinds of shit here.[/quote]

Hi Bob

I'll give you credit (not that you asked) for non being anonymous and having useful info on your site.

I would argue that Photography is more LNT than Civil Engineering and construction.

Peace

Karl

All Burning Man Images reduced to Printing Cost

All Burning Man Images reduced to Printing Cost

Universal Reciprocity, Anyone?