All Burning Man Images reduced to Printing Cost

karlbaba · Post by **karlbaba** » Sun Dec 17, 2006 8:49 pm

[quote="karine"]I also think you might have had good intentions, trying to gift things people might want- you just didn't respect a gifting / no commerce community or their rules and guidelines.

Now, you really should register your camera next year, and read the agreement letter you sign (the actual terms of your agreement with the LLC).[/quote]

Hi Karine

Of course I registered my camera this year, carefully read the fine print in advance and asked questions of the BMORG folks to make sure I had it right.

Nobody claims I'm out of line with BMORG. I even had the option to have a web gallery written explicitly in the contract.

It's the TOC for this forum that folks are saying I'm out of line with and the mods have called it borderline. I've invited them to delete the thread many times. They've made another call to delete the link but if ya'll still don't want it here, I'm sure you can appeal for it's extinction

peace

karl

blueniteowl · Post by **blueniteowl** » Mon Dec 18, 2006 2:03 am

What I don't understand is why you seem so shocked and disappointed by the negative reactions you are recieveing here. From what I see, the only other posts and interactions you have made here have been to share your photos. Which is great, you gave a gift that others could enjoy, but unfortunately when considering your posting history it comes off as entirely self promoting rather than a selfless gift.

http://eplaya.burningman.org/viewtopic.php?t=15702
http://eplaya.burningman.org/viewtopic.php?t=15332

Why did you even bother advertising here, when it's obvious that there were previous negative reactions to other topics you've posted.

You chose to ignore the rules and were upset when chastised because of it. How does the whole board suddenly become a personal club where negativity is shared and distributed? What else should people do? Just ignore those who do wrong? Allow the behavior to continue? Since it seems that you were already aware of the no commerce policy here on eplaya, why did you choose to ignore it a second time? And in such a blatant manner?

The part that bothers me is that you clearly won't admit that you've done anything wrong and that you had a pretty good idea that it was wrong before you even chose to do it. You can make all of the arguments you'd like about the hipocrisy of the event when it comes to commerce, but does that mean that it's acceptable to bend or break the rules here or there?

Badger · Post by **Badger** » Mon Dec 18, 2006 8:50 am

The part that bothers me is that you clearly won't admit that you've done anything wrong and that you had a pretty good idea that it was wrong before you even chose to do it. You can make all of the arguments you'd like about the hipocrisy of the event when it comes to commerce, but does that mean that it's acceptable to bend or break the rules here or there?

Ding, ding, ding....

Well put owlperson.

karlbaba · Post by **karlbaba** » Mon Dec 18, 2006 9:22 am

I thought Owl's post was a good one. I'm not here to do wrong or I wouldn't do it. If my previous posts were wrong, they should have been deleted right?

I shared my photos before, folks looked, some got free files, nobody paid money, so you can say I was borderline. Folks got to see for free.

The Trip report was also offered free, didn't get a negative response, and again, didn't generate money.

I'm not necessarily complaining about my response, although Owl created a fine example of how it could be done intelligently. Ya'll live here. You know the dynamics and if this thread is an exception or does this happen a lot when a new poster writes somethiing that's not in line with your net culture (but isn't against the rules like mine may have been)

Peace

karl

Post by **actiongrl** » Mon Dec 18, 2006 1:12 pm

Karl,

Actually, I don't think I have a countersigned agreement that gives permission to sell these images, because in order to do that they'd need to undergo a review process. Selling prints is something we take pretty seriously and permission isn't granted until your agreement is countersigned. Please write to [email protected] to request that permission. Thanks!

AG

karlbaba · Post by **karlbaba** » Mon Dec 18, 2006 2:02 pm

[quote="actiongrl"]Karl,

Actually, I don't think I have a countersigned agreement that gives permission to sell these images, because in order to do that they'd need to undergo a review process. Selling prints is something we take pretty seriously and permission isn't granted until your agreement is countersigned. Please write to [email protected] to request that permission. Thanks!

AG[/quote]

If you could check on that contract AG, we'd know where we stand. I remember requesting the web gallery provision and waiting while they got it approved at Media Mecca. If it's not signed, let me know we'll discuss what do do.

I have sent 3 emails to BM to clariify things (such as to get approval for the trip report posted on the forum) but haven't got a response in months. I'm guessing my email address get tagged an junk (no jokes) by your system so last time I tried a different address.

Peace

Karl

Toolmaker · Post by **Toolmaker** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 7:25 am

karlbaba wrote:
actiongrl wrote:Karl,

Actually, I don't think I have a countersigned agreement that gives permission to sell these images, because in order to do that they'd need to undergo a review process. Selling prints is something we take pretty seriously and permission isn't granted until your agreement is countersigned. Please write to [email protected] to request that permission. Thanks!

AG
If you could check on that contract AG, we'd know where we stand. I remember requesting the web gallery provision and waiting while they got it approved at Media Mecca. If it's not signed, let me know we'll discuss what do do.

I have sent 3 emails to BM to clariify things (such as to get approval for the trip report posted on the forum) but haven't got a response in months. I'm guessing my email address get tagged an junk (no jokes) by your system so last time I tried a different address.

Peace

Karl

Maybe they think you are a troll. Possibly a lookie-loo.. maybe even a spectator. Did you mail out checks to the ORG or those pictured? Did you egt permission from those photographed to use their art as your own for commerce? Hopefully someone will see fit to forget to issue your ticket for 07 so this atrocity doesn't happen again.

karlbaba · Post by **karlbaba** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 8:48 am

I like your politics Tool. I wish I could stop reading commondreams.org cause I need more time.

AG and I have our emails working now. She does a lot for the event, I've appreciate her even tone, and you can bet that all of the hundreds she has to work with have made as much or more from the event than I.

When you say "atrocity" are you referring to attempting to make money from Burning Man art (which is allowed by the BMORG with permission) or posting the link in the sacred forum when I dropped my priced to cost (sorry folks, won't happen again, I thought that not making money on em made it OK, obviously not)

It's funny how certain "rules" get taken really seriously and everybody knows it invokes a license to flame while folks know they are expected to be tolerant of other bad behavior. I bet if I had 3000 posts I could tell you all that I passed out free Heroin on th Playa, banged 10 women and men that didn't know about each other, and yelled "Fuck Off" to every drum circle I saw, and I'd still get a better reception.

Peace

karl

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 11:05 am

Really, KarlBaba, you're doing a heck of a job convincing us that 100,000+ self-promotional threads by all Burning Man attendees past & future on the eplaya is some kind of brilliant notion.

Ron · Post by **Ron** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 11:22 am

Seems to me that the questions of profit, motivation, artistic ability, and so on are all distractions. Perhaps entertaining distractions, to those who find WWF, Thunderdome, and other pseudo-fights entertaining, but distractions nevertheless.

The TOS don't forbid successful or profitable commerce. They forbid commerce. Giving up stuff for cash is commerce, even if the price doesn't meet the production costs. Setting aside the ticket price, when an artist displays their signed work on playa, they do so without any exchange of cash at all. Thus no commerce. That there might be some promotional value in the display is an interesting philosophical point but does not establish a clear commercial exchange in the way that passing dollars around does.

Now we all know the burn isn't completely commerce free. But it is close to advertising free and this thread was clearly an advertisement. That it advertised an unprofitable product put up by as burner matters not at all. Give the prints away for free and you're fine. Ask for any cash, and you're not. It's pretty simple, really.

Ron

karlbaba · Post by **karlbaba** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 11:36 am

Bob wrote:Really, KarlBaba, you're doing a heck of a job convincing us that 100,000+ self-promotional threads by all Burning Man attendees past & future on the eplaya is some kind of brilliant notion.

Hi Bob

It's pretty clear by now that my post didn't achieve my goal of giving something, or, if you suspect my motives, it didn't achieve anything for my standing as a photographer.

Since that's cleared up, and the forum has spoken about what's an inappropriate use of this place, I still think it would be good if folks clearly stated what aspects of Commerce at, before, and after Burning Man are OK or not.

Cause otherwise it's a bit like "Don't think about these necessary evils, don't tell, just react"

Just as examples

1. Ok to work for "the man?" Don't assume a professional org is required (It might be, personally I'm glad for em) The Rainbow Gatherings don't have paid staff, but Burning Man wouldn't be able to do what it does without em.

2. Ice is for sale and maybe that's required somehow. Boycott em or not?

3. Your ticket money goes to pay artists to make art for the event. OK? Should the artist sell that art after the event, donate it to the org, or elsewhere?

4. Before or after the event, you're spending a lot of money, patronize burners or not? What about folks who specialize in burner fashions, glowsticks, lights, and whatnot. Is it important that nobody cater to burners?

5. Should Media Mecca deny all commercial use of Burning Man images, even in editorial images?

You all know the other examples.

It's been painful to be flamed in this thread (perhaps I deserved it) and it still hurts when I return here but it's been super good for me.

There are people I disagree with in other forums and I've been harder on them than I should be. Being on the receiving end has helped me see both sides and be a better person.

Also, i think we all have psychological glitches from feeling judged and criticised, it goes back to being a kid. Having those buttons pushed and looking within at those feelings has been educational for me (just trying to answer folks who asked "why am i still here?"

Another question is how do communications about Burning Man (stories or images) relate to the event. Is it bad if more people come? (maybe bad for the event but good for society)

I noticed when I shared my stories and images with non-burners, they mostly said "That's cool, I had just heard rumours about tit parades, wild public sex, and drugs"

My personal opinion is that Burning Man principles need to spread to the outside world in ways that are scalable, sustainable, and help us with our issues. I think that the Burning Man themes like "Hope and Fear for the Future" and "Green Man" are intended to stimulate thinking and discussion to those ends as well. Folks who wish to keep the event small and unknown will probably disagree with me.

Peace

Karl

edit. Ron addressed some questions. I did make the mistake of not equating internet postings after the event with commerce at the event. I stand corrected on that. Just to be clear, I didn't do anything but give away things at the event.

blueniteowl · Post by **blueniteowl** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 12:24 am

Ron wrote:Seems to me that the questions of profit, motivation, artistic ability, and so on are all distractions.

The TOS don't forbid successful or profitable commerce. They forbid commerce.

I would have to agree with Ron on this one.

Karl, plain and simply, it seems to me that you still don't believe that you've done anything wrong here. Saying

karlbaba wrote:If my previous posts were wrong, they should have been deleted right?

makes it appear that you are just unloading the responsibility of your actions on to others. Your invitation to allow the thread to be deleted also makes it appear as though you aren't willing to own up to your actions. You'll allow for the deletion of the thread but only because others didn't agree with it, not because it blatantly violated the TOS.

You may want to examine how you come across to others online. I believe that you are recieving the kind of response that you are not because of eplaya "net culture" but because of the fact that a majority of your posts here have been self serving advertisements.

When you shared a link to your Burning Man story, you recieved a pretty positive response. But when you've shared links to your photos, which are listed on a website that allows for the purchase of said photos, you've recieved a negative response. Mostly, I believe, because eplaya has become a haven from the daily onslaught of advertisment in all forms. The regular users here defend this rule fiercy at all times within my experience.

I believe that part of the reason you were flamed here was because of the tone and attitude that came across in your responses. Through the written word we are unable to know your true intentions. Being flamed sucks, I know for I have been there myself. But, this is the internet and the unfortunate truth is that people have a much easier time speaking their minds and often doing so in a way that isn't considerate because they don't really have to deal with any kind of response or consequences. The internet becomes a veil where one can choose to interpret or ignore whatever they want.

I personally am still not quite sure what to think about you. It does bother me that you simply will not admit to your own wrongdoing. Choosing instead to unload the responsibilty of ones guilt onto the moderators and shifting the focus onto the excuses for your behavior which have included the arguments of hypocrisy, semantics, and so called net culture.

I advise that you throughly examine your own posts here. For you may realize that you come off a different way than you had intended to.

karlbaba · Post by **karlbaba** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 1:55 am

Thanks Owl

I think you have once again shown a graceful way of taking strong exception without being rude or degrading yourself in the process. I also agree that's it's hard to judge tone from plain text and I do feel folks have read things that weren't there.

I'm totally guilty of not knowing the culture of Eplaya enough to know how out of line my posts were or weren't. I'm assuming if they were really far out of line that they would have been deleted. But you'll note that I asked several times for this thread to be deleted. I don't have the power to do that myself.

I do think it's ironic that some folks fiercely defend the bandwidth of the forum on one hand, and then waste it with the other.

Burning Man culture seems to flaunt the rules of society on one hand and on the other says "A strict interpretations of the rules indicates you are wrong and have committed an atrocity"

I think i've owned up to several things in my writing here but you seem to want a full plain Mia Culpa and you're not going to get it because it doesn't align with my own intent or feelings. I didn't mean to exploit ya'll whether you think so or not.

Peace

Karl

helitack · Post by **helitack** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 6:06 am

There is a huge difference between photographs of someones art, and fine art photography. Selling photographs of someones art here is what chaps everyones ass. Even if you have permission from the artist.

You have to remember that you the photographer own copyright to your images, and the org cannot dictate your copyrighted images.
I have never signed anything that the org has given me at the gate nor have I read anything given me at the gate.
If you are doing art photography, at BM or anywhere else, if you have a model release from your subject, like I do, the org has no legal stand and the work I have done has been and continues to sell. Since it is my art I feel no need nor obligation to donate to anyone but myself and my model.

You should take a hard long look at Federal copyright law and use you best skills to stick to that law. Especially in the sections that deal with how a photographer can lose copyright. If you read this law, you will see that the org has no stand in the way they attempt to interpret the law.

Remark · Post by **Remark** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 6:47 am

Can I sell my extra ticket here if I buy one for my brother and for some reason he can't go?

If he can't go I was going to try to take a rider and hope they could pay for some gas.

commerce?

Toolmaker · Post by **Toolmaker** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 7:14 am

Remark wrote:Can I sell my extra ticket here if I buy one for my brother and for some reason he can't go?

If he can't go I was going to try to take a rider and hope they could pay for some gas.

commerce?

NO!! But you are more than welcome to GIFT it here. That means you give it away for free. As far as bartering goes on eplaya I am still a little foggy. My personal preference is to GIFT so I never bothered to find out the specifics on bartering. I am sure that if you asked one of our wonderful staff via PM that you would get a definitive and cordial answer.

karlbaba · Post by **karlbaba** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 8:13 am

[quote="Remark"]Can I sell my extra ticket here if I buy one for my brother and for some reason he can't go?

If he can't go I was going to try to take a rider and hope they could pay for some gas.

commerce?[/quote]

Actually there's a whole "selling bought tickets" section of Eplaya and they'll even check the person's ticket for you to be sure it's not fake.

They do encourage you to sell your ticket for what it costs you. That's how I got my $200 ticket last minute.

Just FYI

Interesting info Helitack. I prefer to work with, rather than around the org, and don't know law enough to know if their controls go too far.

Like so many aspects of Burning Man, I'll do the photography different next time (I don't know how though)

Peace

Karl

MikeVDS · Post by **MikeVDS** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 8:17 am

I don't know the official rules but I think this would be a good place to resell an extra ticket at the price printed on it. I don't imagine those posts would be frequent enough to be an annoyance and it's more likely a burner will get the deal than a tourist or someone trying to make a buck(assuming the price has gone up since date of purchase).

Since it's technically "commerce" and it's possible those post have become frequent enough to be annoying there very well might be a rule against it.

Post by **AntiM** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 9:16 am

Selling tickets at face value and setting up rideshares are allowed. That's why there's a ticket section and a rideshare section.

C'mon folks, this isn't difficult.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 11:13 am

By the standard used to qualify what Karl offered to do as commerce,
everything in shared resources that involves money is commerce and banned.
If you split up a quantity of elwire to save everyone involved a ton of money-not allowed.
If you are reimbursed for shipping a gift-not allowed.
If someone makes something for you and you help on materials in some way-not allowed.

None of this seems to follow the spirit or intent of the rules to me.
And I think a lot of you have been unduly harsh to Karl, especially since no one seems to completely agree on what is appropriate for a photographer.
I still don't think what he was trying to do should be considered a business transaction. I think if he had been more subtle or coy, no one would have had a problem.

Before I posted on this thread, I wrote Karl and asked if he would do the free photo thing after the deadline. He said yes. Those interested in his intent might be interested. I can understand not publicly making it open ended. He and I don't know each other, otherwise.

Unfortunately I've had to cancel plans to attend more often than getting there.
I've always been reimbursed for shipping the ticket to someone.
When I bought a ticket last year, I paid the individual for shipping.
Is that not allowed under this interpretation?

Burning Man certainly has the right to disapprove of what he was doing.
If they do, they need to start shutting down most of the shared resources for the same reason.

K-mom · Post by **K-mom** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 12:38 pm

Perhaps it would have been a better idea to offer up high-res downloads of some of these images; then, it would have been up to the individual whether or not htey wished to shell out for printing.
Setting it up this way requires the exchange of cash for materials, which, as Ron said earlier, is the crux of the issue.

karlbaba · Post by **karlbaba** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 12:52 pm

[quote="K-mom"]Perhaps it would have been a better idea to offer up high-res downloads of some of these images; then, it would have been up to the individual whether or not htey wished to shell out for printing.
Setting it up this way requires the exchange of cash for materials, which, as Ron said earlier, is the crux of the issue.[/quote]

Next time I'll just steer clear of offering them in places where it's borderline or out of line.

I don't have the resources for ther options like your suggestion of hi-res downloads, and it would only be a loophole. There's not need for hi-res if you aren't printing, and some photographers get nervous about how others might pring their images.

Note to Helitack. My partiicular is that Photography is more about "seeing" beauty rather than creating it. It could be the beauty of a person, nature, or somebody's art, it's still not my beauty.

Beauty is everywhere. Krishamurti observed that Art is beauty amplified because we've become too numb to see it all around us. Maybe that's an exaggerated point but I like to remind myself of it sometimes.

Peace

karl

blyslv · Post by **blyslv** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:35 pm

Can I borrow $5? that would be really beautiful!

Post by **AntiM** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 4:49 pm

gyre wrote:

By the standard used to qualify what Karl offered to do as commerce,
everything in shared resources that involves money is commerce and banned.
If you split up a quantity of elwire to save everyone involved a ton of money-not allowed.
If you are reimbursed for shipping a gift-not allowed.
If someone makes something for you and you help on materials in some way-not allowed.

None of this seems to follow the spirit or intent of the rules to me.
And I think a lot of you have been unduly harsh to Karl, especially since no one seems to completely agree on what is appropriate for a photographer.
I still don't think what he was trying to do should be considered a business transaction. I think if he had been more subtle or coy, no one would have had a problem.

Before I posted on this thread, I wrote Karl and asked if he would do the free photo thing after the deadline. He said yes. Those interested in his intent might be interested. I can understand not publicly making it open ended. He and I don't know each other, otherwise.

Unfortunately I've had to cancel plans to attend more often than getting there.
I've always been reimbursed for shipping the ticket to someone.
When I bought a ticket last year, I paid the individual for shipping.
Is that not allowed under this interpretation?

Burning Man certainly has the right to disapprove of what he was doing.
If they do, they need to start shutting down most of the shared resources for the same reason.

They are lot of grey areas. I didn't slam down the thread because I wasn't sure myself how "commercy" it was. All I can do as a moderator is ask for input and try to interpret the community guidelines and terms of service. Spam is easy, burners are not. This comes up all the time, and there is always folks who are cool with it, and folks who are not. Basically, I'm the front line on commerce posts and I don't like it much.

The answer is yes, no, maybe, and on occasion. Apply as needed.

Dusty Feats · Post by **Dusty Feats** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 5:24 pm

Bubba Baba says: One should not open a can of worms with a chainsaw (and then goes on to acknowledge that sometimes one doesn't realze that fact until moments later).

Pilot Baba was unavailable for comment.

I, for one, have enjoyed your words and photographs. In perusing your website, it's obvious that both your heart and soul are in the right places (with your fellow man and in Nature). Being a one-time burner, I'll have to defer judgement on this particular imbroglio to those with BM tenure....

And now I must depart; the words and images of The Fire Elf beckon.

skygod · Post by **skygod** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 5:50 pm

AntiM wrote:the answer is yes, no, maybe, and on occasion. Apply as needed.

I <3 you Anti!
But it is so true, all roads lead to the Fire Elf.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 12:29 am

Anti M,

I know it's tough being keeper of the monkey cage here.

I have a theory that what separates us from animals with prehensile tails,
is car keys.

karlbaba · Post by **karlbaba** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 1:34 am

[quote="blyslv"]Can I borrow $5? that would be really beautiful![/quote]

You sure can, but you have to pick it up in person. It'll give you an excuse to visit

Peace

Karl

Post by **AntiM** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 7:34 am

Anti M,

I know it's tough being keeper of the monkey cage here.

I have a theory that what separates us from animals with prehensile tails,
is car keys.

Car keys!? I don't even drive! ook ook ook.

RANT:
There are no set answers to some of the commerce questions dear friends. However, fundraising EVENTS (usually not sales or raffles) are allowed to go by in the events and regionals sections, preferably with a nice big "We're raising money for XYZ camp" up front. Don't expect me to know all about all the camps. I don't. I've made mistakes here, and it was a lack of communication between the poster of the event and myself.

Basically, things go on a case by case basis. There is no set of rules written down. So you and I will have to trust each other, m'kay?

Snippy I am. Not meaning to offend, but I'm really, really getting tired of this thread. Let it freaking go. They will be another one to discuss, there is always another commerce question. And no, I don't think there should be a set of rules, we have enough rules! And no, the person with the last post does not win.

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 8:00 am

That makes things abundantly clear for anyone else thinking of starting self-promotional commercial threads.

BTW I have 40,000 battery operated leafblowers for sale at cost only to burners.

Step right up, step right up, step right up.

Everyone's a winner, bargains galore.

That's right, you too can be the proud owner.

The quality goes in before the name goes on.