The survival of Burning Man

burningmayan · Post by **burningmayan** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 3:25 am

:?: I have heard that the Bureau of Land Management has doubled the playa use fee in each of the last 3 years. If that were to continue it would clearly end Burning Man.
Does anyone know if the fee is rising in this way?
If it is, we all need to act against this.
Thanks.

blyslv · Post by **blyslv** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 8:32 am

Yes it's true.

If paying the BLM upsets people, they should stop going to BM and throw their own camping trip.

Teo del Fuego · Post by **Teo del Fuego** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 1:26 pm

Good question Burningmayan...it deserves something better than BLYSLV's smug response (which, I understand is almost mandatory for e-playa.)

I have no problem paying to be on land owned by the public, nor do I have any problem paying the BLM over and beyond what I am already paying them with my taxes. But, being a decendant of Patrick Henry, it does not seem just or fair that fees should double and triple at times when the population of Burning Man increases by a small percentage each year. Also, its not like Burning Man trashes the joint and does nothing to clean up after its done. Sure, all costs increase each year for everything, but the dramatic increases called for by the BLM seems like a deliberate attempt to "gouge the freaks." Wold the BLM fees double and triple if 40,000 people were gathering to hold a Republican Party celebration?

I do not have answers, but I share your concern, and I hate to see the "its just a camping trip" apathetic mentality.

My 2 cents

burningmayan · Post by **burningmayan** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 2:26 pm

My point is not that I object to a fee, but I do object to fees doubling each year and thereby ending Burning Man.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Tue Nov 14, 2006 11:23 am

The increase in fees speeds the day it will be held elsewhere,
or replaced elsewhere.
The blm will lose.

MikeVDS · Post by **MikeVDS** » Tue Nov 14, 2006 3:38 pm

Does anyone know what the fee is? I was told it's around $8 per person per day on the playa. That's roughly $56 dollars per person depending on how they determine people on each day. If it went from 2 to 4 to 8 it doesn't seem that drastic but if it continues in that manner we'll run into problems.

munney · Post by **munney** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:57 am

Fees Schmees,

Some things are worth worrying about, and some things should be left to the Man, Thats right, Larry Harvey, and the Giant minds of the organization.

From what I know, (not much), the BLM has increased the fees, yet that is comensurate with a longer lease.

Again, Camp on your own, or join the Party,

More Fire Less Blinky

Stabulator

Dr. Pyro · Post by **Dr. Pyro** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 9:21 am

I agree with Munney.

Somebody search my home for giant pods.

Ugly Dougly · Post by **Ugly Dougly** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 11:33 am

blyslv wrote:Yes it's true.

If paying the BLM upsets people, they should stop going to BM and throw their own camping trip.

I be down wit dat.

Before Burningman, people were already Going to the Desert to fuck shit up. Now, they're corralled and regulated. Enough of that, now.

SnowBlind · Post by **SnowBlind** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:18 pm

burningmayan wrote:I have heard that the Bureau of Land Management has doubled the playa use fee in each of the last 3 years.

Do you have anything to back that up? I just spend 5 minutes browsing the BM website, and here is what I found:

BLM Fees:
2001: $502,000
2002: $572,000
2003: $603,656
2004: $707,808
2005: $710,404

Thats hardly doubling every year, and is actually inline with the population growth (around $17 per person, pretty stable).

The only concern I remember them talking about last year was the double charging for the expenses for Law Enforcement. However the Org is still challanging that, and its not an ongoing increase. Also, I believe that BM now has a 5 year permit, which would also make it unlikely that the fees are rising as out of control as you say.

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 3:17 pm

Don't worry, as long as people keep buying tickets, they will keep holding the event. At least until the LLC members reach retirement age.

Ugly Dougly · Post by **Ugly Dougly** » Thu Jan 04, 2007 12:54 pm

I don't mind forking over extra dollars to the Bureau of Land Management, as long as it all goes into making more land!

Lifeisshort · Post by **Lifeisshort** » Thu Jan 04, 2007 2:50 pm

My thoughts are that If the cost rises to an unacceptable level, there may be some Burning Man Participate with a large track of land willing to host the burn. However, the Playa in my mind is the perfect place

Post by **mdmf007** » Thu Jan 04, 2007 3:35 pm

Life is short - That has been discussed many times.

BM is not an unheard of event - there are much larger events out there that seem to survive and grow. Look at Sturgis 500,000 bikers or more there for two weeks!!!!

What I like about the playa is its uniqueness. That would be lost if the event waas moved. Bonneville? salt would dissolve everything including flesh.

sand dunes? too many stuck art cars.

There are plenty of abandoned airports that offer enough flat space for the event, but it still isnt the playa.

I think it would be nearly impossible to find a site as unique as the playa, with a hard enough surface devoid of weeds and brush.

keep searching there is hope. A land swap is always possible. There are plenty of ways the BMORG could swap land with the BLM. I have worked with them long enough to know that they swap land all of the time.

I would see no reason that the BLM couldnt give up a couple of thousand acres of the playa on the north end. It is out of sight, worthless, devoid of life, sterile, barren, and generally worthless.

just my 2 cents.
later all.

helitack · Post by **helitack** » Thu Jan 04, 2007 6:53 pm

mdmf007 wrote:Life is short - That has been discussed many times.

BM is not an unheard of event - there are much larger events out there that seem to survive and grow. Look at Sturgis 500,000 bikers or more there for two weeks!!!!

What I like about the playa is its uniqueness. That would be lost if the event waas moved. Bonneville? salt would dissolve everything including flesh.

sand dunes? too many stuck art cars.

There are plenty of abandoned airports that offer enough flat space for the event, but it still isnt the playa.

I think it would be nearly impossible to find a site as unique as the playa, with a hard enough surface devoid of weeds and brush.

keep searching there is hope. A land swap is always possible. There are plenty of ways the BMORG could swap land with the BLM. I have worked with them long enough to know that they swap land all of the time.

I would see no reason that the BLM couldnt give up a couple of thousand acres of the playa on the north end. It is out of sight, worthless, devoid of life, sterile, barren, and generally worthless.

just my 2 cents.
later all.

I was kind of with you until you made this bullshit statement:

"I would see no reason that the BLM couldnt give up a couple of thousand acres of the playa on the north end. It is out of sight, worthless, devoid of life, sterile, barren, and generally worthless".

What about the playa for the playa's sake, just because some humans see no "worth" in a dry lake bed, doesn't make it worthless. Jeebus

Post by **mdmf007** » Thu Jan 04, 2007 7:11 pm

Your right - I threw in the "worthless" I should have said

Has no "Commercial, Mineralogical, or agricultural uses" That is from the EIS statement.

Personally I love the Black Rock, I believe we shouldnt touch ANWR. - and even fewer people are ever going to see that either.

I was coming from the wrong angle, and poorly wrote my last post.

later all

Ugly Dougly · Post by **Ugly Dougly** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:59 am

50 weekends a year. Spread 20,000 people out, that's what? 400 people per event? Minus of course a few weekends called for bad weather, say 50%, you still have only 1000 people each time. Spread it out like butter, baby.

Post by **mdmf007** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 10:23 am

I got dibs on a weekend in July or august - you guys can have december, january or februaru all to your selves on the playa

later all

Post by **AntiM** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 3:24 pm

You'd have to subtract the weekends the playa actually is a lake! And the surface was really spongy the one December we were out there, and COLD. No thanks, I'll take the freaks with the dry ground.

Ugly Dougly · Post by **Ugly Dougly** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 3:42 pm

Did I say 50%?

Well how about that, I did!

Post by **AntiM** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 4:00 pm

Oh, you expect us to read?!

Dork · Post by **Dork** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 4:12 pm

The reason the playa is considered the perfect environment is because the event has evolved to live in it. If the event were moved somewhere else, it would evolve to match. We'd build different types of shelter, use different methods to keep our bodies and stuff from being damaged, and develop new methods to move around.

The playa is a wonderful location for building a temporary city, but it is certainly not the ONLY location. Brainstorming next-best locations is at worst harmless, at best having a backup plan could help with negotiations and ease the transition if we were forced to move.

In any case, worrying about the state of various negotiations between the ORG and BLM is not very productive. If they need community support, they'll ask for it. If they get screwed they'll raise ticket prices and we'll keep buying them anyway.

BAS · Post by **BAS** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 5:06 pm

I still say a frozen lake should be the back up plan! Go from one extreme to the other, and see how many stray burners show up when spring thaw comes along!

B.

thisisthatwhichis · Post by **thisisthatwhichis** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 5:33 pm

BAS wrote:I still say a frozen lake should be the back up plan! Go from one extreme to the other, and see how many stray burners show up when spring thaw comes along!

B.

I can see it now!..... beautiful naked people running around in parkas!....... on second thought, I like the hot desert.....

Post by **mdmf007** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 6:33 pm

You are right about adaptibility - but there are many aspects that draw me to the playa.

its flat
its a hard enough surface for bike travel, art cars, tractor trailers,
it rarely rains in August - I know it does so dont jump on me fer sayin it.
isolated so it wont be killed by yahoos or high school drunks mobbing the fence
no insects
no weeds, stickers, thorns, or vegetation.

I think i would be hard ot beat. I would love to see it in a forested area, but it would be impossible to see everything. A sand dune is too soft, Moab would kick butt, and there are plenty of other dry lakes in NM, AZ, and Nevada.

What about the grasslands in Montana, wyoming, kansas, colorado? that would be cool too.

Personnaly I like it where it is. Like someone said above - as long as theres a customer buying tickets, there will be BM.

later all

dodgerob79 · Post by **dodgerob79** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 8:59 am

I second Frozen Lake as the backup plan.
Rob
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time management - for women

MikeVDS · Post by **MikeVDS** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:30 am

Forest would be tough to do equally as impressive flame effects.

Dork · Post by **Dork** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:39 am

MikeVDS wrote:Forest would be tough to do equally as impressive flame effects.

Tough to do more than once, anyway.

Ugly Dougly · Post by **Ugly Dougly** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:24 am

mdmf007 wrote:You are right about adaptibility - but there are many aspects that draw me to the playa.

its flat
its a hard enough surface for bike travel, art cars, tractor trailers,
it rarely rains in August - I know it does so dont jump on me fer sayin it.
isolated so it wont be killed by yahoos or high school drunks mobbing the fence
no insects
no weeds, stickers, thorns, or vegetation.

I think i would be hard ot beat. I would love to see it in a forested area, but it would be impossible to see everything. A sand dune is too soft, Moab would kick butt, and there are plenty of other dry lakes in NM, AZ, and Nevada.

What about the grasslands in Montana, wyoming, kansas, colorado? that would be cool too.

Personnaly I like it where it is. Like someone said above - as long as theres a customer buying tickets, there will be BM.

later all

It would be great to find a lake bed that wasn't alkali.

Steven bradford · Post by **Steven bradford** » Tue Jan 09, 2007 8:25 pm

Remember Folks, this was tried in 97 and it did not go well.

Having the event on federal land simplifies things considerably.

You could do it on private land, as it was done in '97, but then you'd fall much more under the control of county and state authourities. All you need is one politician that wants to make an example out of how they're going to crack down on all those damn pagan godless hippies endangering the lives of children.

Careful what you wish for.

The survival of Burning Man

The survival of Burning Man

Will BLM fees continue to double?

Fees Shmees....

Re: The survival of Burning Man