Loud Sound Camps-A Tool For Diplomacy

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 3:13 pm

I strongly suspect this device is more sophisticated than it appears.
Staggered phasing across the bank of drivers might make it far more directional.
I have used a few small peizos to drive intruders from a house.
They use very little power.

The LRAD
Long Range Acoustic Device

http://science.howstuffworks.com/lrad.htm/printable

http://www.defense-update.com/products/l/LRAD.htm

This is where the rangers get the ones they use on the perimeter with their starlight units, in case you want to add one to your theme camp.

http://www.atcsd.com/site/

dragonfly Jafe · Post by **dragonfly Jafe** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 4:25 pm

....are you suggesting that LRADs be used to "blast" loud sound camps until they turn down their volume? Sounds like the "30 watt bullhorn in feedback" proposal with an infinately more expensive bullhorn. More directional, perhaps, but no less obnoxious to nearby camps....

I still advocate a calm conversation over a cocktail the next day as the preferred method of dealing with loud sound camps outside the LSSC zone.

I did find the technical description fascinating. Interesting that the device uses only 200-400 watts at full power (so it would even "meet" the BM sound standards that are commonly published, if one didn't know about the 90dB limit at 25' standard). I would imagine (hope), however, that anyone actually using such a device against another camp would be "asked" to leave BRC.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 4:46 pm

I think it's an interesting design.
Piezos are very efficient.
The warblers I use in a security system are painful, but use 200 milliamps.
This one will actually produce speech in a very directional pattern.
I would certainly presume anyone would attempt normal diplomatic exchange before resorting to a harsher form of diplomacy.
However, I saw camps in 2005 running deep bass that would penetrate hearing protection at 3am to 8 am, even without spectators in their camp.
I felt so sorry for the sleepless people in these areas.
You must surely be aware that some camps run thousands of watts in amplification.
The lower bass is the serious problem.
It penetrates and reflects for a long distance.
Some people just don't care about their neighbors.

The CO · Post by **The CO** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 1:01 am

Watts are meaningless. Db is the way to measure sound objectively. A 1000w system running shitty gear can be much quieter (and more obnoxious due to signal to noise ratio) than a 300w system with good gear. I've long disliked the "300 watt" rule for just this reason.

Sadly, diplomacy doesn't always work. Big Ass camp in 2000 didn't turn their gear down till we started threatening to catapult piss jugs at them. Tried talking, tried mediation with rangers, tried explaining acoustics (point the speakers at yer OWN camp, not ours), but biohazard violence seemed to be all they understood. Bouncy Bouncy camp last year wasn't too loud, but 6 fucking hours of Wilson Phillips at any volume is cruel and inhumane...

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 5:20 am

Eric Clapton started all this.
He started stacking a wall of Marshall amps for stage effect.
What most people didn't know is that he rented them in each town and they weren't plugged in.
Guitar carries.
He was using one amp.
I've seen giant pa speakers built for looks only, never had drivers.

But the sound wars had started.
Still for years, a few thousand watts was considered adequate for 10,000 people.
Then things got ridiculous.

And yes, efficiency and low distortion is what you're after.
But most people don't understand the logarithmic progression of sound levels.
This does explain why more level affects people further away more than it does people up close.

I had a party once in a neighborhood that had been living with Tav Falco on the next block and a truly horrendous punk band much closer.
Richard Hite, once of Canned Heat, Bear's brother played.
Mostly blues and boogie, clean harmonics and a good sound system, but I could not get them to keep the volume down.
LOUD! but clean sound.
Next day, I got a lot of compliments and thank yous from my elderly neighbors, for how good the music sounded.
Quality does matter.

I just don't understand the sound levels used in some camps, in a place as magical as burning man.
It isn't necessary.
My personal system is accurate down to 10 hertz.
The efficiency is 100 db/watt.
The horns are over 120 db/watt.
But my neighbors don't know it.
Once you have accurate sound,
you don't need high volume.
You just add more distortion.

The CO · Post by **The CO** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 9:04 am

gyre wrote:What most people didn't know is that he rented them in each town and they weren't plugged in.

I could give a laundry list of bands I've worked with that still do this. Most of them sound far better than the bands that plug them all in.

My personal fave was Silverchair (anyone remember them? Didn't think so...). 3 Ampeg SVTs for bass rig, 8 Marshal double stacks, 12 monitors, and a double drum fill... For 3 kids. Striving to be as deaf as Pete Townsend as soon as they could!

Post by **mdmf007** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 9:11 am

20 minutes of Wilson Phillips and I would gouge my own eardrums out.

I was at a Kenney Chesney, Rascal Flats, Uncle Cracker concert two years ago. (I have a country wife) They must have had a billion watts of amplification and it sounded like shit. It was so loud I could actually feel my ears shut down, and not transmit any more sound.

Couple that with the half million girls screaming together in a harmonic that could crush a Trident sub and you have the makings of a shitty night.

CO is correct there are plenty of a-holes at BM.

I watched as the last guy in a camp left, leaving a system any dance club would love to have with the system pounding crap rap from the 80's I chased him down and he told me to go to hell.

What did I do? Me and my mates are rather large guys, who can throw down if necessary - but civillized. When they returned from wherever they were. They found all of their sound gear packed in their van, with the cables wound neatly and twist tied in order and a note on top letting them know we could take it to the next level if the unpack it - their choice.

All the camps around us pitched in and it took 10 minutes for 20 people or so to accomplish.

When they got back they marched straight to me and started their rant, told me they would call BLM law (for what charge exactly) and have us arrested.

So they flag a ranger down and tell him, he said "we have told you plenty - what do you want them to do set it back up? they didnt harm any of your gear"

They barked a litle bit, then got the point. I got the whole confrontation on tape - we watch it now and then for laughs.

I am sure many will see me as the asshole, but I could not take his crap anymore. Many people suggested destroying his gear but thats a route I would rather not take. This guy just got overzealous, and had his campmates all hussied about nothing.

Someone earlier suggested a loud camp area. whats wrong with that? I know sound carries, but simply aiming your speakers the right way decreases that by quite a bit.
I am starting to blabber -

later all.

BAS · Post by **BAS** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 10:27 am

Actually, I think neatly packing up all their gear was a wonderful idea! If it had been damaged, then they might have been able to get Rangers (and law enforcement) to take them seriously. But, merely inconviencing them without actually doing any harm? That was great!

Cool!

B.

skeetsh00ter · Post by **skeetsh00ter** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 10:32 am

good call mdm, i would love to have been there to see that.

Post by **AntiM** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 10:53 am

The First Rule of a sound camp should be If no one is present, turn that boring shit off. Obviously your music is dull if no one cares enough to hang around and dance or listen. The saddest thing I ever saw was a camp with a nice shade structure and dance area, plenty of lights and a fairly good-looking lay-out, with the DJ playing for himself and one very altered stumbling dancer. Pathetic.

Ah yes, the neatly packing up ploy. Love it.

ibdave · Post by **ibdave** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 7:27 pm

mdmf007 wrote:
They barked a litle bit, then got the point. I got the whole confrontation on tape - we watch it now and then for laughs.

later all.

You Tube Maybe?? Please... Please You Tube....

Post by **mdmf007** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 8:13 pm

You tube it is - Monday i'll ge it uploaded.

ibdave · Post by **ibdave** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 8:17 pm

mdmf007 wrote:You tube it is - Monday i'll ge it uploaded.

Thanks.......

Ugly Dougly · Post by **Ugly Dougly** » Sat Jan 13, 2007 10:30 am

Today's word is INFRASOUND
Say it with me: "Infrasound".

Ugly Dougly · Post by **Ugly Dougly** » Sat Jan 13, 2007 10:34 am

Class, let's move on to the delivery system:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwave_auditory_effect
That will be all for now.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Sat Jan 13, 2007 10:37 am

It is possible to build bass sirens.
Experimentation was halted due to internal bleeding by technicians.
I am not sure how this applies to clubs these days, but you've been warned.
I am not joking about this.

The CO · Post by **The CO** » Sat Jan 13, 2007 10:42 am

You know, this makes me think of the Noise Pirates of 1999. They travelled around the city in a mufflerless Chevy POS, loud distorted sound system, and a Blues brothers style klaxon speaker PA. Parked in front of camp, revved engine, blared noise, and demanded "Bring us tequila! We can get louder!"

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 12:13 pm

How about using a pa as a giant pink noise device to mask general noise?
It should work for anything except the low thump thump like those losermobile stereos.

Done right, it sounds like nothing but background noise.

Cosmic Code Authority · Post by **Cosmic Code Authority** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 4:52 pm

gyre wrote:However, I saw camps in 2005 running deep bass that would penetrate hearing protection at 3am to 8 am, even without spectators in their camp.
I felt so sorry for the sleepless people in these areas.

I weighed the pros and cons of going to BM in 2005 and 2006 and decided not to go.

the thought of putting up with the techno, deep bass in particular, played a part in my deciding not to go. not a bit of hyperbole.

the sound of it makes me queasy and anxious and anger all at once. I know about earthquake frequencies and how it has that effect. I just know that bass has that effect on me and like gyre said, earplugs don't work.

at Firefly I invaded one of the techno camps naked with a boffer swords to make them pay. sort of a long story, though.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 5:15 pm

I had no trouble sleeping the last two years.
Disturbed by a generator once is all.
It all depends on location and your neighbors.
You can always go to the quiet zone.
The center cafe was the loudest place I went this year.
If I want volume, I'll stay home and turn up the sound.
There is plenty to do out there.
It is still worth going.

Cosmic Code Authority · Post by **Cosmic Code Authority** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 7:58 pm

sure, it didn't keep you awake. we must have different tolerance levels for what noise level would keep me and you, respectively, awake all night. I have a lower tolerance than most people.

though I know that I can adjust my own responses if I work on doing so.

in any event, I had some other internal reasons for not going, as well. except that I won't drag the subject off course by discussing this.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 8:36 pm

My hearing is very sensitive.
Techno does put me right to sleep if the volume is low enough.
But there is little noise in some areas.
I was close to the cafe this year, but off the street.
Closer to 6:00 and further out tend to be the quietest areas.
There is always the walk-in area, very quiet.
I can recommend Black Leightning over the ear hearing protection.
Very comfortable and radically better than the cheap ones, about $35.
They can be used with inserts too.
Of course, they are bulky if you are sleeping.
I have only used earplugs with an incredibly loud generator.
I just haven't needed them.

It really depends on your neighborhood.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 9:15 pm

This toy must be good for something at burning man.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/01/24/ray. ... index.html

HughMungus · Post by **HughMungus** » Sat Jan 27, 2007 7:43 am

dragonfly Jafe wrote:I still advocate a calm conversation over a cocktail the next day as the preferred method of dealing with loud sound camps outside the LSSC zone.

Or right when it's a problem. This has worked great for us. A lot of times people who are loud either don't know how loud and (potentially) annoying they are or they think that unless someone says there's a problem, there's no problem (and I don't blame them).

So if there is a problem, say something. This applies to any problematic situation at Burning Man really.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Thu Aug 14, 2008 11:00 am

The LRAD focused beam sound system is available for civilian purchase for ships and yachts now.
So it should be easy if anyone wants to purchase one.

I'd love to try one out for security use.
I've used piezo drivers in alarms for a similar purpose and it was effective in closed quarters.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LRAD

Simon of the Playa · Post by **Simon of the Playa** » Fri Aug 15, 2008 6:29 am

so noted....actually, this year we have scaled back on the decibels even though we are in a "Large Sound Area"...mainly because of our own people having to deal with plates and cups bouncing along the dinner table to 120 bpm's and ambien or tylenol pm just not working..

i have a taste for the thumpy thumpy, it's actually soothing, go figure.

we have also focused and directed the bigger stage out into the open playa, away from other camps..the secondary system in the chill dome will be muted and directed as well to stay IN the dome.

with this said, i admit, it is really fucking loud, and when a THOOOOOOM hits the bass during an electro set it's enough to make you shit your pants, if you are predisposed to doing so.

Entheon, Root Society, and Deep End are aware of the issue and are working with BMorg and the DPW to make these and other large sound camps less intrusive into others space, and we (root society) turn our shit off at 6am, after the sunrise, and dont crank it up until about 7 or 8 pm in the evening.

i hope that anyone who has issues will come over, have a drink and discuss whatever is tweaking them, and i'm sure accomodations and / or adjustments can be made. We are reasonable people, unless we're whacked on crack, but's that's only occasionally, and mostly in reno.

my apologies beforehand to anyone who finds this to be annoying, or worse, downright rude...we do not intend to be. we want you (the BM community) to have a good time, shake your butts, lounge in our comfy chill dome, and on sunday, join us for our annual "wake up and get drunk on bloody marys sunday".

it is not our intention to fuck with your burn, far from it.

i hope this year we can please everyone, i know this wont happen, but we are TRYING to minimize the pissed off factor that can occur with huge systems and camps via their neighbors.

with that said, the people at "Bat Country" our neighbor directly next to us on the esplanade, must have really pissed someone off in the placement crew.

"you want esplanade, I'LL give you esplanade, fuckers...."

and so it goes..

Post by **AntiM** » Fri Aug 15, 2008 8:39 am

But will you play Inna Gadda Da Vida for me?

Simon of the Playa · Post by **Simon of the Playa** » Fri Aug 15, 2008 10:00 am

YES!

that's a promise.

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Fri Aug 15, 2008 10:06 am

maybe some Led Zeppelin? "Immigrant song"........I'll bring treats..........

Simon of the Playa · Post by **Simon of the Playa** » Fri Aug 15, 2008 10:28 am

we are not above bribes, i mean gifts.

[youtube][/youtube]

Loud Sound Camps-A Tool For Diplomacy

Loud Sound Camps-A Tool For Diplomacy

It Started With Cream

Re: It Started With Cream