bisexuality

Angry Butterfly · Post by **Angry Butterfly** » Tue Nov 18, 2003 6:15 pm

It's more that I like to be a boy once in a while than that im bi.

TawnyGnosis · Post by **TawnyGnosis** » Tue Nov 18, 2003 6:40 pm

I think every human being is bi deep down. Not that it's always so aparent, but any registered same-sex desire could qualify you for that category.

I like being a boy sometimes too, I've been wearing a tie around just to see what it feels like recently. Even though it's not a huge deal, people act differently toward me. Actually the couple days I have worn the cheesy tie, I have had several people flirt with me ( male and female).

Yet, I'm also extremely comfortable looking like the traditional female most of the time, because it's not a negative thing at all. Being "female" is really ok, and any being inclined to express themselves that way should.

About the intersex thing, it also bothers me that doctors would decide for the person's entire life what organs they will use because they don't fit into the comfortable dichotomy.

Having people that are both male and female breaks apart just about every pre-supposed assumption you could make. I like that..

BlueBirdPoof · Post by **BlueBirdPoof** » Wed Nov 19, 2003 8:09 am

TawnyGnosis wrote: I like being a boy sometimes too, I've been wearing a tie around just to see what it feels like recently. Even though it's not a huge deal, people act differently toward me. Actually the couple days I have worn the cheesy tie, I have had several people flirt with me ( male and female).

I'm still feeling out (after 20 years!) the bearded woman thing. Now that I'm gainfully employed, the playa is the only time I can go a week without shaving. Before that, I was "sirred" more often than "ma'amed" and it's not such an impressive beard, and I'm not very male looking besides that. Amazing that one visual cue outweighs the d cups and long hair.

TawnyGnosis · Post by **TawnyGnosis** » Wed Nov 19, 2003 2:38 pm

Blue Bird, that's really interesting. I actually had believed you to be a male, so much for me not having stupid assumptions before I know anything.

Is it a lot of facial hair? Or just the average amount that any woman of say, middle eastern descent would have?

Yeah it only seems to be one cue that throws off the whole gender thing, I agree.

BlueBirdPoof · Post by **BlueBirdPoof** » Wed Nov 19, 2003 3:14 pm

TawnyGnosis wrote: Is it a lot of facial hair? Or just the average amount that any woman of say, middle eastern descent would have?

Yeah it only seems to be one cue that throws off the whole gender thing, I agree.

I do fairly well--my beard grows faster than my (male) partner's and I'm hairier over all on the body. Slavic descent mixed with Polycystic Ovarian Syndrome. I could give some of the women on the "Hair to stay" website a run for the money.

I was reading this past year about how at one point (19th century) beard was used as a characteristic that proved the superiority of "the white race." That gives it another spooky layer.

Do you have any particular reasons why you thought I was male? I'm just curious, so it's not pickin' at ya, and at times I do sort of lurk in a non-gender specific manner.

TawnyGnosis · Post by **TawnyGnosis** » Wed Nov 19, 2003 6:11 pm

Maybe it was an automatic response, due to that most posters here are male( or so I think). And also that almost all of the women here define themselves as such immediately by their name, avatar, or postings. For example the ever-irritating "Alice", or the few others that rely too much on statements that could be defined as, "LOOK AT ME! I'M SEXY!!".

This is part of the reason that I don't post anymore, I'm really annoyed at the characteristics of the newbies. The women e-playans I know are all stellar but many of them have left. I'm still always impressed with Lydia, she's fucking awesome.

How do I come across? I hope I don't seem desperatley feminine for attention.

Isotopia · Post by **Isotopia** » Wed Nov 19, 2003 7:00 pm

For example the ever-irritating "Alice"

Ah, so I'm NOT alone.

BlueBirdPoof · Post by **BlueBirdPoof** » Thu Nov 20, 2003 8:29 am

Yeah, there do seem to be a certain number of femmie women who flirt and flaunt. I tend to think of them as 1--younger than me therefore of a generation that can play with those things with more ease, and 2--femmie, having a different style. At times I wish I had that kind of freedom, but I am who I am and don't want to trade self in for another model. I have made my own attempts at flirting here, but not much responce. (It cheers me to think that two presumed men responded positively when I identified myself as a soft butch who likes men.)

I haven't been super aware of you until we started this conversation, but I picked up on your being a woman, mostly I think because people who ask questions about gender tend to be queer, women or both. You come across as thoughtful, mostly.

I'm definately a NewE-Playan, for whatever it's worth. I try to respect my elders on the board, but at times I charge into things with my own opinions and experiences anyway.

Funny how even with people who should know better (and I include myself here--this is a comment about how insidious the gender system is not about what you should or shouldn't have known) "neutral = male."

Rob the Wop · Post by **Rob the Wop** » Thu Nov 20, 2003 8:47 am

BlueBirdPoof wrote: I'm definately a NewE-Playan, for whatever it's worth. I try to respect my elders on the board, but at times I charge into things with my own opinions and experiences anyway.

Funny how even with people who should know better (and I include myself here--this is a comment about how insidious the gender system is not about what you should or shouldn't have known) "neutral = male."

Well, for what it's worth, I was surprised to see that you were new to the forum. I figured you were part of the old Eplaya and just changed your name to something else. You contribute meaningful dialog to the conversations I've seen you participating in. Change away! It's the reason we're here. If my opinion gets changed, it simply means someone pointed out something I hadn't thought about before- which is knowledge- which is good. The second you stop learning, you start dying.

I think the assumption that "neutral = male" is less the gender system as it is the Internet. At least in the beginning, BBS systems were populated primarily by males. This paradigm has shifted- but the idea of the nerdy teenage male typing away at a computer is still an image in the back of most Internet user's minds. Ergo, when someone is unsure of an Internet user's identity- the unconscious image dropped into our head from Hollywood movies and prior personal college experience crops up. At least in my case, but I am a nerdy type male- so what the hell do I know?

"Scuse me while I put some more electrical tape on my glasses."

TawnyGnosis · Post by **TawnyGnosis** » Thu Nov 20, 2003 8:57 am

"neutral = male."

I know, and I'm just coming into the knowledge of this unstated assumption too. Male-ness defines everything, what is "reason", what is "logical", and what is being a normal and complete human being. "Normal "people don't have babies so the workplace doesn't accomodate that as much, pregnancy is seen as a disability.

Androgyny is seen as a male thing too, with only a dash of the feminine thrown in. I don't think equality is aiming to become men, but to acknowledge that the feminine is not insulting.

TawnyGnosis · Post by **TawnyGnosis** » Thu Nov 20, 2003 9:02 am

"I think the assumption that "neutral = male" is less the gender system as it is the Internet. At least in the beginning, BBS systems were populated primarily by males. This paradigm has shifted- but the idea of the nerdy teenage male typing away at a computer is still an image in the back of most Internet user's minds. Ergo, when someone is unsure of an Internet user's identity- the unconscious image dropped into our head from Hollywood movies and prior personal college experience crops up. At least in my case, but I am a nerdy type male- so what the hell do I know? "

Not that's not really it Rob, I think we're speaking of the larger dominating ways of thought in our culture, and world.

Sure the bbs may have started that way, and a lot of the posters here are geeky males( no offense, I like you guys!) but assuming someone is male because they arent shouting "fuck me, I'm a hot chick!!" is a symptom of the greater problem.

These gender/women's studies classes are making me a nut on all my old boards and lists.

Rob the Wop · Post by **Rob the Wop** » Thu Nov 20, 2003 9:44 am

TawnyGnosis wrote:assuming someone is male because they arent shouting "fuck me, I'm a hot chick!!" is a symptom of the greater problem.

You're assuming I don't do this in real life. The hardest part is knowing when to start running when the high school security comes after you. Or was this what you meant by a greater problem?

BlueBirdPoof · Post by **BlueBirdPoof** » Thu Nov 20, 2003 10:25 am

Tawny, Rob
Trying to juggle all the stuff that came up in the past few posts and get something sensible to ya.

The commentary about "neutral = male" is old stuff in the gender studies world (which is why Tawny and I were able to discuss it practiacally in shorthand.) It's broader than that one example. Neutral also implies white, able-bodied, of-age-but-not-elderly, straight. On this board it might also imply in the Bay Area (a faulty assumption, but still those NOT from California are the marked ones as my mind operates) and you're almost always safe assuming "American." (What's a Canadian or two amoung friends, eh?) To sort of put it in perspective, when Hollywood makes a movie with a main character who has one of those traits, the story becomes ABOUT the trait and the difference from norm. Almost always.

Tawny--I hear you about the frustrations when you're taking in new information about this stuff. I posted about sexing, gender confusion, and gender assignment to the Parakeet board I belong to! Now that's being a joyless, feminist nit-picker, I tell you!

Rob--thanks for the compliment of believing me experienced. It's nice to hear that I'm reaching someone and making him think. This board gives me a lot to think about too.

Angry Butterfly · Post by **Angry Butterfly** » Thu Nov 20, 2003 12:01 pm

I like the gender neutral nature of the internet, that is part of the reason i didnt put up an avitar for a while. I was trying to decide if I should leave people guessing. I decided to go with one that represents what I look like if you see me on the playa though.

TawnyGnosis · Post by **TawnyGnosis** » Thu Nov 20, 2003 12:15 pm

Yeah that's a good way of putting it I think, "neutral" could be equated to unmarked, or unrecognized.

I seem to be running up against a lot of politics that disagree with me lately on my burning man lists. The unrecognized biases seem to jump out at me more, the problems persist a lot even in "open minded" communities like this.

A note on being femme and flirty, I do enjoy it once and a while I must say. I think I'm apt to do it less though as I get older( I'm not even 21 just yet) though because I can rely on other things to get attention. On the bbs, being hyper sexual seems rather irritating sometimes. I look to these boards as intellectual intercourse more than flirting grounds. Yet I don't want to divide the masculine and feminine to create stronger dichotomies, or rever the masculine when I comment about my annoyance with certain women on the bbs.

The sexiest thing we could do IMO is show a fine intellect and be witty, but that seems to overshadowed in my life by too much unwanted attention to other attributes I have. It makes me jaded sometimes, though I really try not to be.

Blue bird, you seem a very interesting character though. I'm always really fascinated by those who blur gender lines and use it as a source of power. I do it, but really more so in the way I assert myself that is traditionally a "male" way of behaving rather than any overt physical way. It would be fun to go further with that idea, by experimenting more with fashion and such. Sometimes I think it would make ten times more sense if I were a true lesbian rather than this ambiguous, freaky little creature who likes everything. Things would be more so much simple( if simple were a good thing).

Complexity is so yummy.

BlueBirdPoof · Post by **BlueBirdPoof** » Thu Nov 20, 2003 4:17 pm

TawnyGnosis wrote: I seem to be running up against a lot of politics that disagree with me lately on my burning man lists. The unrecognized biases seem to jump out at me more, the problems persist a lot even in "open minded" communities like this.

That happens when you become sensitized to something pervasive. It's suddenly in your face all the time. It can be very difficult when you are with a group of people not going through the same process, and it's almost heartbreaking when the people in question are deeply combatable on other levels and suddenly you start fighting about it.

TawnyGnosis wrote: A note on being femme and flirty, I do enjoy it once and a while I must say.

Me too, but I hate the maditory Femme thing, and when the chips are down, my first reactions are more "soft butch" than any other lable I can pull up. And right now, I'm going through a whole thing where it's very hard for me to be femme, because I'm awakening to my feelings that I've been dissed and overlooked for being more butch than not. And I sort of have to laugh, because I miss a whole lot of the subtext of flirting--I can be reallly clueless about a man's level of attraction to me and he can miss that I'm interested in him, because I telegraph that so badly. But that was painful in my teens and twenties.

TawnyGnosis wrote: I look to these boards as intellectual intercourse more than flirting grounds.

I consider the two very similer (if I'm sitting next to you and showing off my brain try reading it as a fluttering of eyelashes!) but I know what you're saying.

TawnyGnosis wrote: Blue bird, you seem a very interesting character though. I'm always really fascinated by those who blur gender lines and use it as a source of power. I do it, but really more so in the way I assert myself that is traditionally a "male" way of behaving rather than any overt physical way. It would be fun to go further with that idea, by experimenting more with fashion and such.

Well, let's keep talking, and in July/August, if we're still interested, make arrangements to meet in RC.

Patience · Post by **Patience** » Thu Nov 20, 2003 4:49 pm

Looking for some opinions on this. My new girlfriend is bisexual. Now, this doesn't bother me in any way, nor does it excite me in that typical "ooh, maybe I can get some hot 3-way action" way either.

I do wonder, though, if in the long-term (because this could be long-term--she's fucking amazing) people who are bisexual find it particularly difficult to be in monogamous relationships, as there is a whole side of their sexuality that doesn't get to be expressed.

BlueBirdPoof · Post by **BlueBirdPoof** » Thu Nov 20, 2003 5:00 pm

okay--my opinions only.

Anybody in a monogamous relationship has to give up some part of their sexuality to some extent. The quality of the relationship is worth it or it isn't. In a greater sence, life is full of choices--and some of them are either/or. You always have to juggle loss and gain. On certain levels, bisexuals may be better off, for making the choices consiously, rather than reverting to default.

Would having your girlfriend love you and a woman be worse than having your ("straight") girlfriend love you and a man?

Are you comfortable asking her, yet?

Most assuradely NOT an expert.

Patience · Post by **Patience** » Fri Nov 21, 2003 8:53 am

BlueBirdPoof wrote:okay--my opinions only.

Anybody in a monogamous relationship has to give up some part of their sexuality to some extent. The quality of the relationship is worth it or it isn't. In a greater sence, life is full of choices--and some of them are either/or. You always have to juggle loss and gain.

I see that. I just wonder if the part a bisexual gives up for monogamy is more pronounced. Talking to my girlfriend, it sounds like being with a man satisfies her in different ways that being with a woman. I was just wondering if that was the case for others.

Would having your girlfriend love you and a woman be worse than having your ("straight") girlfriend love you and a man?

Don't know. I don't think it would be that different. Either way, I don't do polyamory, so it wouldn't work out for me. This isn't a jealousy issue for me, though. I trust Rachel completely. I just wonder what it's like for her (and others), as it's pretty far out of my scope of experience.

Are you comfortable asking her, yet?

I have. She answered similarly to what you said, though it seemed kind of like a dodge. Maybe it's unanswerable because it would require her to know what it's like to not be bisexual...

*shrugs*

Alpha · Post by **Alpha** » Fri Nov 21, 2003 9:02 am

Patience wrote:I just wonder if the part a bisexual gives up for monogamy is more pronounced. Talking to my girlfriend, it sounds like being with a man satisfies her in different ways that being with a woman.

This presupposes that being with you fulfills her in all the ways that being with any other man would. I'm sure you're a great companion and lover but I can't see anyone filling the shoes of every man in the human race.

Making an exclusive commitment requires foregoing MUCH of what other people offer, whether that "other" means 3 billion people or 6 billion people. The question is not what you give up, but what you gain.

III · Post by **III** » Fri Nov 21, 2003 9:39 am

>I can't see anyone filling the shoes of every man

i think i could, if you gave me a big enough shovel and lined em all up just right...

Rob the Wop · Post by **Rob the Wop** » Fri Nov 21, 2003 10:06 am

I've been in a relationship with a bi-sexual woman for coming on 5 years. We have an "open" relationship, though each of us has only been with 3 others in the 5 years- so we very rarely play. In essense, we are about 95% monogamous. In the first year we were strictly monogamous.

Stop a moment and think about all the girlfriends you've had in the past. Was the sex the same with all of them, or were there differences? Were the relationships the same, or were they different? Do you want to be with another woman for those differences more than being with who you are currently with?

From talking with my g/f, it comes down to a simply question.
"Is this who you want to be with?"
While the relationship, sexual and otherwise, is different between the genders- it truely wouldn't be much more than simply being with another person. And the non-sexual portion can be acheived through simple friendship- so the only thing different is the sex.

Does she miss the sexual aspect of being with another woman?
Probably to some degree.
Do you miss doing the nasty with ex-girlfriend and yoga instructor X?
Probably to some degree.

And don't totally reject the idea of a threesome, just don't expect it. If she really wants to experience a same gender fling again, she might just be desiring you being in the picture too.

Dragontear · Post by **Dragontear** » Fri Feb 06, 2004 7:21 pm

Patience I understand your concerns. For me when I was in relationships I could only go awhile before my other side want to come back out and play. I was dating a guy who was open to letting me play with other girls thankfully. But remember all girls are different! But I double she will never think or want or dream about being with another girl again.

fnord · Post by **fnord** » Mon Feb 09, 2004 9:22 pm

Though I completely dig bisexuality, I don't think everyone "should" be. Diversity keeps things interesting.

BlueBirdPoof · Post by **BlueBirdPoof** » Tue Feb 10, 2004 9:13 am

Agree in spirit, different take.

Sexuality is just very protean. And our social catagories don't do it justice.

tonka · Post by **tonka** » Tue Feb 10, 2004 11:25 am

i'd like to go with the 'gender blender' way of thinking here...

does gender really matter THAT much?

a relationship is a relationship, no matter what gender your doing it with, or not doing it with, some people perfer one gender, some perfer another, and the rest perfer both... the same rules apply for a guy-girl relationship, as they do girl-girl, or guy-guy, although sometimes the rules may be a little different than the 'norm.' depending on the peoples morality, or way of looking at this topic....

i say, do what you want, do who you want, as long as your not gonna piss anyone off...

BlueBirdPoof · Post by **BlueBirdPoof** » Tue Feb 10, 2004 12:59 pm

Gender matters a whole bunch to some and not so much to others. Some belive in two genders, some in more and very very few in just one.

This is a good place to admit that we just don't know.

Icepack · Post by **Icepack** » Tue Feb 10, 2004 6:08 pm

girlie wrote:>>
I've got some questions about bisexuality (and yes, i'll answer them
myself in a bit as well). It is never really clear to me how most bisexuals
handle their long term relationships and i'd love to hear about this a bit
from some folks who've had that experience.

-- If you are bi, do you picture yourself ever "settling down" with just one
person? Do you imagine that to be someone of either sex, or do you
find that you prefer one sex over the other for long term commitment?
-
-Icepack answers: I wrote a paper in college for a psychology class that basically said I was bi. It was a sort of "coming out" thing. I also gave a speech to my "Public Speaking" class on why same-sex marriages should be legalized. That being said, I never had a girlfriend and I've recently married a man.

-- If you are bi, do you ever feel that your bisexuality makes long term
commitment seem unlikely, or does it really make no difference? Do you
prefer monogamy or polymory?
Icepack answer: It made no difference I think. I am most comfortable in a monogamous relationship, but that has nothing to do with sexuality.

-- If you've dated a bi person... how did their bisexuality make you feel
(nervous/excited/jealous/etc.)? Why? How did you deal with that?

Icepack answer: Dating a bi-guy in the past was uncomfortable. I can't explain why, but his gay porn with leather and bondage stuff was awkward for me. The image in my brain of him with a guy just kind of didn't sit well.

My husband knows of my bisexuality and would love to experience every man's fantasy of 2 women and 1 guy. I cannot envision how that would ever come about, even at Burning Man. The closest we've come to that is watching porn together.

DVD Burner · Post by **DVD Burner** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 11:55 am

bump.

Simply Joel · Post by **Simply Joel** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 12:07 pm

DVD Burner wrote:bump.

while you are at it, you could send them a notice about their missing avatar.

DVD, you civic-minded e-playa sock

bisexuality

My take.