Non-crowded radio frequency?

Dork · Post by **Dork** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 4:02 pm

I'm trying to work out the details of an art car project that will require a lot of spotters in a range of a couple hundred feet. We'll need some way to communicate, and the FRS radio bands seem too crowded to be used reliably.

Is there some other technology that might work better and not require a license for all users? What about the type rangers and other departments use?

StevenGoodman · Post by **StevenGoodman** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 4:18 pm

You could use MURS.

"The Multi-Use Radio Service is a low power, short range VHF Citizens Band service in the 150 MHz band."

It is Citizens Band and does not require a licence. However, it is not well know yet and therefore there are not a zillion cheap sets like FRS/GMRS.

MikeVDS · Post by **MikeVDS** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 4:26 pm

Ham. License? Bah. I'm licensed but don't follow the rules out there. All the reasons for requiring a license for HAM are moot out there.

Isotopia · Post by **Isotopia** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 4:36 pm

What about the type rangers and other departments use?

Dork, you probably don't want to use what Rangers use. They're quite expensive and probably would be worth your time (or money). You might go ahead and invest in a decent pair (or three) of Motorolla Talkabouts(TM) http://direct.motorola.com/ENS/web_prod ... nguage=ENS I know two years ago when we were collecting funds during Exodus for Hurricane Katrina a couple who had no money to spare gave us a set of these and they worked pretty damn well. And though I can't say with any assurance it seems like the closer your pair are the more likely your call will go through with a minmum amount of distortion or interference - even with others out on the playa. You can get a decent set for ~$50 I think.

Have a look.

phil · Post by **phil** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 4:44 pm

MikeVDS wrote:Ham. License? Bah. I'm licensed but don't follow the rules out there. All the reasons for requiring a license for HAM are moot out there.

Shudder. There are lots of Nevada hams in the area, and Burning Man creates a really bad taste in their mouths. There's even a band plan for the playa:
http://ian.kluft.com/blackrock/bandplan.html

Louise and I were in downtown Reno talking to a guy who said he was mobile on the highway south of Empire; I was using a 0.3W Alinco DJ-S11 inside our van on 2M.

On another issue, Louise and I also have GMRS licenses, and GMRS used to be much more useful than FRS until the manufacturers started making FRS/GMRS combo radios, and now GMRS is just as unuseable as FRS with unlicensed users who have no clue and no manners. C'est la vie. Years ago, Louise and I heard a rancher and his wife on GMRS passing a grocery list from her to him. I'm sure that's impossible now during the Burn.

I'd go with MURS, as another poster suggested - it's unlikely that unlicensed non-rule followers have wrecked MURS yet. MURS radios are semi-expensive, and you _may_ find that CB works well - fewer users than in the good ol' good buddy days. I may bring my CB this year and see how that works.

Whatever you bring, be aware that the playa is harsh on radios. The static electricity can wreak havoc on the innards, even if only temporarily. The dust gets into everything. The sun and the playa powder take all the bounce and elasticity from the rubber covers and seals.

Burning Man has a _very_ heavy footprint while we're all out there, and not just the visible garbage in the dirt. 2007 is supposed to be the green year, and it would be nice if everyone walked lightly.

Token · Post by **Token** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 5:09 pm

If you use a good FRS unit, like Isotopia suggested, and all the radios are the same make and model, there are "privacy" codes that you can turn on such that you filter out all the chatter.

This works very well for my camp. We seldom hear anyone other than our own crew.

Dork · Post by **Dork** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 5:23 pm

My understanding with the privacy codes on FRS radios is that even though you can't hear people on a different privacy code, they can block you from hearing people on the same one. Is this correct? The times we'll need the radios the most are also the times the bands are likely to be the most crowded like Friday/Saturday night.

About MURS - are they somewhat standard like the FRS radios? Are radios from different manufacturers likely to be compatible?

Post by **mdmf007** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 5:29 pm

We use 165.500 MHZ - on king Bendix Model GPH< MPH< EPH radios.
If you come across traffic (which ou wont) somply bang in another freq and go from there.

I am sure it is illegal, but the FCC is complaint driven, and I dont see em out there or anticipate the FCC screaming in for a one week event.

King radios are being dumped by the hundreds on Ebay. the older models are not compatible with digital / narrow banded requirements thatthe FCC sert foprth for the federal governement. State agencies have until 2017 to comply so there is at least 10 more years these radios are useful.

They are 5 watts, have a range in northern nevada of at least 20 miles, more if you have any elevation, and one clam shell of 9 double aa's willllast 36 hours. more if you arent jabbering away like amad man.

We use these for federal fires, and I love them. Also use them everywhere else in the world also. They are set to transmit from 147-174 MHZ, which is one of the USDA USDI freq ranges.
New up to 1200 bucks - used 50 bucks on ebay.

hope this helps.
later all

phil · Post by **phil** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 5:54 pm

Dork wrote:My understanding with the privacy codes on FRS radios is that even though you can't hear people on a different privacy code, they can block you from hearing people on the same one. Is this correct? The times we'll need the radios the most are also the times the bands are likely to be the most crowded like Friday/Saturday night.

About MURS - are they somewhat standard like the FRS radios? Are radios from different manufacturers likely to be compatible?

Privacy codes (Continuous Tone Coded Squelch System, CTCSS) does not eliminate radio interference. If the stations using CTCSS use tones far enough apart, you should not be blocked by another station using the same transmit frequency; you may hear a tone or beat note, but you should not hear their traffic and they should not block you from hearing people using the same frequency and CTCSS tone you are. Results will vary depending on the crappiness of the radios. On burn nights, the frequencies and tones are more likely to be in use, no matter what you choose.

I don't know anything about MURS makers, I'm sorry to say. I'm not aware that radios by different companies are incompatible in FRS and GMRS, although some may claim a difference. Channel numbers are not required to be specific frequencies, so if you have different brands of FRS/GMRS/combo radios, the channels may not match the frequencies among the different brands. Just keep a chart so that you know which radio uses which frequency and agree on a frequency instead of a channel. Louise and I label each radio with the channel number of "our" frequency; but we keep a chart, too, so if we have to change frequencies and we're on different brands, we can end up on the same frequency even though it may be different channel numbers.

MrMullen · Post by **MrMullen** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 5:15 pm

I will see if I can add to this discussion.

FRM/GMRS radios during the first half of the event are quite usable. Our camp used channel 22 without a privacy code and it worked fine. We chatted with other camps and worked out a system (Say the persons name you wanted to speak too so they knew it was for someone in our camp and not their's). However, toward the end of the week, the things were useless in the afternoon and evening. Too many people and too many people who don't care about being nice. Forget Night of the Burn!

The other thing was that the privacy codes are nice, but when you get a fair amount of traffic, they cause more problems than solve. You see, the privacy codes keep you from hearing when other people are speaking, so if you talk when they are talking, your message does not get through. Two people can not talk at the same time on the same freq. So, you need to know when someone else is talking and privacy codes prevent that. Also, I have observed that privacy codes cut down on the range of the radios and if you get the cheapos from Fry's, you need every watt of power you can get out of them to reach just half way across the Playa.

Dork · Post by **Dork** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 5:34 pm

I've heard enough stories about FRS not working well on busy nights to make me a bit wary.

My application is a bit different, though, so I wonder if that might make a difference. Most people use them to reach people far away. For me 1/4 mile would be plenty, and a little chatter from others would be fine as long as it doesn't lock me out. I just need to know that if someone says something like "Hey, you're running over some guys head" that I will hear it. That makes the privacy code stuff scare me a bit.

phil · Post by **phil** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:48 pm

I just need to know that if someone says something like "Hey, you're running over some guys head" that I will hear it.

On Friday, Saturday, and Sunday nights, I wouldn't bet on hearing it on FRS because of all the chatter.

Try a bullhorn. :->

Token · Post by **Token** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 8:12 pm

Here is an idea that is low-tech enough to actually work:

Use the paging function on an expandable plain old telephone service (POTS) wireless phone system. There are a bunch of 5.8GHz phone systems that have 3 to 8 handsets. Put the base on the art car and give the handsets to the spotters.

The cost would probably be only marginally higher than the FRS two way radios but the interference should be nill since 5.8GHz is not common on the playa.

Dork · Post by **Dork** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 9:41 pm

Token wrote:Here is an idea that is low-tech enough to actually work:

Use the paging function on an expandable plain old telephone service (POTS) wireless phone system. There are a bunch of 5.8GHz phone systems that have 3 to 8 handsets. Put the base on the art car and give the handsets to the spotters.

The cost would probably be only marginally higher than the FRS two way radios but the interference should be nill since 5.8GHz is not common on the playa.

Wouldn't that only give me the beep function, or are those systems set up to allow talking? The example I gave is sort of extreme - I'll also want to use the system for more routine communication

Token · Post by **Token** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 11:15 pm

Since there is no standard it is up to the manufacturer. My Panasonic in the house allows up to 3 handsets to participate on the same call. Its a POTS phone, you open the line and you talk to whomever has a second receiver active. The intercom function just gives you the beep function to alert the base station or other handsets that you are calling.

As for general communications, this would not be the right tool. There you are stuck with FRS or a really good bullhorn.

MikeVDS · Post by **MikeVDS** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 6:43 am

I didn't hear any ham talk last year at all. I only scanned a little bit but it was not at all busy and the 70cm, 220 or 2m bands. I'd think the 70cm band on low power wouldn't leave the valley. I rarely hear anyone on the 220 band even in LA. Plus it'd be a good excuse to get licensed so you could use your radios year round. The ham bands are so underused anywhere I've been in the US. At BRC there is lots of clear air. Don't be an ass, which is always the rule, regardless of what frequencies you're using.

phil · Post by **phil** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 10:30 am

> I didn't hear any ham talk last year at all.

That's one of the advantages of ham radio over FRS/GMRS, but I'm happy to say the playa was crawling with hams, including a noontime net. In 2005, Louise and I operated an HF radio station with special callsign N7B (station and callsign provided by another burner). See
http://www.burninghams.org/
for links to the repeater system, the email list, and a dead link for the HF radio.

I encourage you to join the email list and drop by the noon net in 2007.

[edit: Oh, and drop by our antenna photo pages for shots of antennas at the 2005 and 06 burns:
http://civex.smugmug.com/gallery/1090934
http://civex.smugmug.com/gallery/1088444
http://civex.smugmug.com/gallery/1920567
(the top link is N7b)]

Badger · Post by **Badger** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 2:27 pm

My application is a bit different, though, so I wonder if that might make a difference.

Dork, depending on your specific need - especially if it involved a large art vehicle or installation you might approach the Rangers, DMV or camp placement with your idea and what you expect your needs might be and have someone wih a radio accompany you during the time you think you;ll need uninterrupted radio contact.

Just an idea.

Dork · Post by **Dork** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 3:36 pm

Badger wrote:Dork, depending on your specific need - especially if it involved a large art vehicle or installation you might approach the Rangers, DMV or camp placement with your idea and what you expect your needs might be and have someone wih a radio accompany you during the time you think you;ll need uninterrupted radio contact.

That does sound good as a backup plan for the apeshit nights. I guess I won't worry too much about 100% coverage. My other option, of course, is to just park until things clear up if it feels dangerous.

I have been talking to DMV, so they know what I'm scheming. They mentioned needing a lot of spotters, which is what prompted this.

phil · Post by **phil** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 11:00 am

http://mursradio.googlepages.com/

I haven't dealt with this guy, but someone who has says he's okay. shrug - See if this would work for you, and you've got a set of radios that are usefull all year. (Louise and I use GMRS radios a lot when we're browsing through Fry's and other big-box stores.)

Non-crowded radio frequency?

Non-crowded radio frequency?

Same make and model

How about a plain old Wireless POTS phone.

Re: How about a plain old Wireless POTS phone.

MURS radios $49 each with charger