The issue with 'artcars'....

[BAS]

I want one!

[Fex]

Resident gearheads please correct me if'n I'm wrong, or adjust my logic... I'm not a mechanic so my experience here is limited...

Isn't the carbeurator the only difference between a gasoline-burning and propane-burning engine? I know it's no flowergarden standing right next to an idling propane forklift, but from 8 feet away the air's fine. After all, you can work in a warehouse with 12 propane forklifts burning... and they're all outfitted with car engines... if they were burning gasoline the place would be killing jar within 5 minutes. I used to run my lift for about 10 hours of continuous usage on one propane bottle; at 5mph fuel conservation should be pretty much at a minimum...?

What would the economic pressures/considerations be for converting artcars to propane?

[mdmf007]

Fex-
http://www.propanecouncil.org/trade/fle ... rsions.htm

a site we had in links when we converted a generator to run on Propane.

Unles there is a reason to run propane (like your indoors) there really is no advantage to running a car on propane. You end up using a lot of gas to do the same amount of work. and there is o ecological advantage.

Just what I am told by the fleet guys downstairs.

later all.

[Dork]

What would the economic pressures/considerations be for converting artcars to propane?

Should be relatively straightforward to pull off. Not sure about the cost, I'm sure a lot of that would depend on how much you are able to rig yourself versus getting a kit. I just wonder what the benefit is. Fuel use during the event is pretty small anyway, and fumes are not a big issue when you're operating something outside. On our Geo Prizm-based car we drive a LOT and only use 6-8 gallons during the event. Getting the thing there used up a lot more than that.

There are big gains to be had by using a small, clean-burning engine and driving it to the event instead of towing.

Any time you try to muck around with engine mechanics you risk another failure point. Most art cars have plenty of failure points already.

[gyre]

There have been a lot of these built in europe.
Efficiency is down and engine wear seems to be worse.

[Fex]

I just wonder what the benefit is. Fuel use during the event is pretty small anyway, and fumes are not a big issue when you're operating something outside.

But, I think the whole thread began with the implication that the fumes were an issue; i.e. a bunch of hoopdies idling in a pack nearby making a smogcloud. Most of my driving is done outdoors, and I've been caught in a few traffic jams out there that made me wanna die.

It's not about making BM more green-friendly or maximizing one's energy efficiency at the event, but directly addressing SpaceMonk's issue of the choking cloud caused by artcars. Most small and clean burning new motors I would assume to be still attached to general-use autos that people don't want to chopshop into an artcar. If someone's going to recycle an old beater into an artwork (which it seems is pretty common burner fare), I was just wondering if it was a less than bank-breaking effort to convert, making the emissions a bit friendlier to the other Burners. just a thought.

[Dork]

I hear ya Fex - I guess I'm not as sensitive to exhaust fumes as some so I never noticed an issue. If a car is bothering you it's pretty easy to walk away from it. Sunday night was pretty chaotic last year so they weren't able to keep cars as far back as they usually do. Not being able to escape exhaust fumes isn't a normal thing out there because there's so much space and so few running cars. Actually, I wonder if it was even the cars that were the problem. Most cars aren't left idling - alternators don't work well at idle and once you get in position for the burn you aren't going to move for a while. It may have been inefficient generators powering sound systems on the party buses. Spending the extra dough for something cleaner is probably the way to go. Converting the generators to propane might make the fumes a little less offensive, but they'll still be there.

[gyre]

If there is no wind, the fumes can get bad.
If an engine has worn rings, changing to propane won't help.

[Fex]

:sigh: ... just ain't no winning...

I gotta figure out a design for an engine that runs on weirdness.

[Bob]

Or bullshit.

Best art car might be a wheelbarrow.

[unjonharley]

Or bullshit.

Best art car might be a wheelbarrow.

/
or pedal power

[Sync]

How about this; we make electric based art cars, which are good for tooling around for a night, and BM, or a camp, makes charging available at a central location during the day. Bring your own battery charger and plug-in. Could take up a fund or a camp fee for fuel, gen rental ect.

[bronco2121]

space monk wrote:

>>>there must be a way to at least keep these things away from the man and temples.

space monk, there must be a way to keep you from these smoking moving objects. imagine the man and temple burning... do that... you know what it's like. think about it. now imagine just not going out to spread your special negative vibe being unable to deal with smoke and smells you don't like.

we would all really like it if you just wouldn't complain about such things. smile and live with it, or better yet - stay back at camp until the smoke clears.

B!

[ibdave]

space monk wrote:

>>>there must be a way to at least keep these things away from the man and temples.

space monk, there must be a way to keep you from these smoking moving objects. imagine the man and temple burning... do that... you know what it's like. think about it. now imagine just not going out to spread your special negative vibe being unable to deal with smoke and smells you don't like.

we would all really like it if you just wouldn't complain about such things. smile and live with it, or better yet - stay back at camp until the smoke clears.

B!

YAWN

[Lassen Forge]

A petrol external combustion engine is possible but thay are not generally around.

Diesel fueled steam locomotives are around, quite a filthy plume of smoke. Like this gorgeous babe who lives in Portland (retired SP):

Mmm... In Halloween Black Widow. One of my favorite color combos.

(Sorry - had to bump that up. Oooh, yeah... )

Now - someone mentioned running an art car on bullshit? Could be done - dried dung fired boiler. I can see this. And that's external combustion as well. (I'd say "no shit" but thats not accurate...). now *there's* an art car to be next to. Wonder how environmentally friendly that woud be...

Bet it would give a whole new meaning to "Green Man"...

bb

[bronco2121]

ibdave wrote:

>>> YAWN

WHATEVER can be done to entertain you...

B!

[Toolmaker]

I like the Cathedral Artcar. Nice use of a bettle for the infrastructure of the cathedral.

[allsux]

My first year I could catch an art car anywhere anytime - I could jump from one to the next, or hang off the side getting my bike pulled along. Now they are fewer, farther between and less friendly. :<

[BAS]

My first year I could catch an art car anywhere anytime - I could jump from one to the next, or hang off the side getting my bike pulled along. Now they are fewer, farther between and less friendly. :<

I never did succeed in hooking up with an artcar. Pretty much all seemed to be "reserved."



B.

[Dork]

My first year I could catch an art car anywhere anytime - I could jump from one to the next, or hang off the side getting my bike pulled along. Now they are fewer, farther between and less friendly. :<

I've had the same problem finding passengers. Nobody wants to hop on, or they assume we aren't accepting passengers. Don't be shy! If you get turned down, keep trying.

The only time we turned anyone away was when we were already overloaded, which happened on the way to the burns.

[falk]

Bio Diesel may turn out to be more evil than petrol, given that petrol is used in the growing of the plants, and turning food into fuel means the price of food goes up, pricing out the poor. [1], [2], [3]

In regions with heavy coal-based electrical generation, an electric car is a coal-burning car, and its CO2 footprint is the same as a conventional gasoline-powered car. On the other hand, it's a huge win in regions which get their electricity from solar, wind, hydro, or nuclear. Except the batteries suck.

Hybrid cars are just very efficient gasoline-powered cars. All the energy comes from gasoline one way or another. The good news is that if they use half the gas of a conventional gasoline engine, then they have half the carbon footprint, so they're a win. (Unless making the batteries generates more pollution than the car saves. I think the jury is still out on that one.)

Hybrids can be converted to be rechargable, giving you the best of both worlds -- electric car for short trips and hybrid car for long trips. This isn't supported by any of the manufacturers though, and it's expensive, so it's still limited to hobbiests.

The good news is that the 40% barrier of solar cell efficiency has been broken. If the price comes down enough, you can expect to see all new houses being built with solar roofs, maybe within the decade. This could have a huge impact on society's carbon footprint. I hope to make my next car a plug-in hybrid, charged from the solar cells on my roof.

The one thing we really need right now is a battery with the same energy/weight efficiency as gasoline. That plus massive solar or nuclear (fusion, anyone?) infrastructure could turn the skies blue again in a couple of decades.


Another way to reduce the Burning Man carbon footprint would be to find a way to use the railroads to move vehicles and cargo to Black Rock City. There are railroad tracks that run within about a mile or two of the city. Apparently the logistics are too complicated to make this work, unfortunately.

[unjonharley]

Re:falk, Huh?

[Captain Goddammit]

Well... I'm gonna say the real problem is that most art cars are built from junk! I mean, not a lot of people want to "destroy" a nice car. It's not too hard to understand that.
My own was intentionally equipped with a good-running fuel-injected 4-cylinder and even a catalytic converter, though no rule required it, and it emits very little smoke or noise. But really, I'm a "car guy" born with a wrench in my hand and that kind of thing is my area of expertise, and most art car builders are more "art" than "car" people. And I'm not sure that isn't a GOOD thing, 'cuz it's supposed to be about art.

So basically, yeah, it sucks that a lot of art cars are smoke-belching junk heaps mechanically, but not a lot of people wanna put THAT much effort into something that usually gets trashed after a one-week lifespan.

What are ya' gonna do? Make more rules and regulations? Screw it, let's just play for a week.

[unjonharley]

Lawn mowers and other small engines put out more shit per gallon than some of the worst car on the road..
One week running of a bunch of mad max cars is a wee thing.. One stop light behind a school bus can fuck up your lungs for the rest of a day

[Rat Bastard]

Can we get back on topic here? Maybe? I've heard enough hippie bitching. No one complains when they burn a few thousand pounds of wood and paint when the Man burns. I understand the debate of fuels and such but please, start another thread. I'm here for a solution of the original topic.

I'd like to hear more about the exhaust stack for the motor and gen set. I know there's physics about exhaust compression but not sure what they are. CO is heavy and falls but when hot it will rise. Right?

I'm running a 350 chevy (old pickup) and some sort of generator. I've thought about setting up a stack for both. I've seen a setup for RVs that's a stack for the gennie. Do they muffle sound or at least direct it up? I can't afford a Honda EU. Another concern is the idiot that's going to touch the pipe labeled HOT. Will a lined furnace exhuast pipe work? Can I combine both exhausts into one stack? HELP. Give me some answers please!

As you can see, I have intentions of keeping the air cleaner smelling around nose height. If you have some valid and on topic input, feel free to check out my sketches and pics to help assist with some answers.

www.flickr.com/photos/libidolounge

RB

[gyre]

Do not combine the stacks.
You could run both inside a pipe, but they must be separate.
It may not matter, but it can.
An insulated pipe could protect people, especially if vented top and bottom.
(if it has pipes inside)
Eight feet or so would not be a problem if sized properly.
Multiple straight through mufflers can help silence.
Just remember that there is more than exhaust noise.
If the generator is water cooled, you can shroud it well.
There are things that can be done if not.
The main engine can be silenced, especially if you separate the radiator, though you will still have fan noise some of the time without a very large radiator.
It's been done before.

I think the big complaint is unneeded idling in place, which is valid.

Raising the stack enough will help noise and even falling exhaust may be caught by the wind.

Multiple small pipes can help remove bass.
This is an approach Borla uses in their good mufflers.
Those are twice what their cheap ones cost.
If joints are knife edged, there is no increase of back pressure.
There may be a decrease.
Knife edged connectors are available from SPD in everything from steel to inconel and titanium.
Dynomax may have the best glass packs for the money.
They have a very good truck muffler too.

There is a device used to break pulses up before the muffler.
I can tell you how to make one.
I don't know where to buy one.
They have come on some european cars.
Flex joints in the system make a huge difference in any exhaust system.
Every car needs them.

I can also suggest a very quiet silencer that sounds like a turbine.
It is very inefficient for the engine.
That shouldn't be a problem though.

A proper x-pipe is a huge plus.
I might be able to get you one spec'd, but I need very precise information.
This will only work for the V8 unless you have a multiple cylinder generator.

[mdmf007]

dont forget that you can add catalytic converters to practically any exhaust system, they produce massive amounts of heat and must be shielded but are a good way to reduce emissions.

as for the man burning, at 4-5 tons of wood - that is so insignificant to the mount of carbon released on a wildfire. I see thousands and thousands of tons of wood burn daily on fires. In some cases it is into the hundreds of millions of tons on a single fire.

[gyre]

I think the big burns like the man have enough heat to carry most of the smoke up and away, unless you get very close.

[Toolmaker]

I'd like to hear more about the exhaust stack for the motor and gen set.

On my small generator I used the smallest car exhuast stuff I could find and a NPT pipe. I had to turn something on a lathe to mate the NPT pipe from Home Despot to the car exhaust from Auto Hutt. I also "boxed in" the genny and kept the top open with about 4 inches "breathing" room on the sides. The box and muffler combo reduced the noise by about 1/3 - 1/2.

[itwazed]

I'm tempted to give you crap for complaining about smoke interrupting your enjoyment of an enormous bonfire, but you are right about the oo some of the cars are letting off. Cars are already kept far back enough from the burns to allow some buffer between them and the crowds. If you feel adding a few more feet was needed for any particular burn, you might email BMORG to suggest it. They are never going to be banned completely.

Internal combustion is still king, and that isn't going to change. Clean burning cars don't produce much of anything. The problem is many cars are built on top of buses that were too trashed to keep in service and cars that were not worth fixing up for regular use. Many were chosen because they were exempt from smog laws. There is no little peer pressure on car builders to use efficient engines. I'd dare say there's more pressure to get an old carbureted beast because people think it will be easier to maintain. My experience tells me modern fuel injection and small engines are the way to go, but I'm in the minority.

If the cars are all electric, they're going to need a generator to charge it and run the booming sound systems. Just like the cars themselves, many people will not spend the extra money for something clean and quiet.

The problem really comes down to cost, after purchasing tickets, barter goods, water, "party favors", all the materials and extras for your camp (no matter how big or small) and anything else you need to get through a week in an inhospitable desert in some kind of comfort, making your art car "clean and quiet" is probably the towards the bottom of the expdeture list, esp when youve spent so much time and money, a. getting it made, and b. getting it to BRC......sometimes reality just bites.

Peace, Love, and Twazed