Pan's Labyrinth

[diane o'thirst]

There was some thread drift to this over on the <i>Children of Men</i> discussion. Thought I'd take it over to its own thread because this movie was 'way too good to wind up as just a thread drift.

So! I went to see it on Oimbelc and again this past Saturday. I took a friend who was interested to go see it with me. What really surprised me was that it's playing in Bend, Portland and Salem but didn't play in Eugene...what's up with that? I can only think that the Bijou, our art cinema, was slammed and couldn't shoehorn it in, and the other cinemas around here were loaded up with crap like <i>Because I Said So</i> and <i>Flushed Away</i>.

Anyway, I wasn't sorry for having driven a solid hour to see it. I'd like to note that my understanding of Spanish is pretty limited, but having grown up in California and being in with the Andalusian breed crowd I've learnt enough by osmosis to be able to follow along. What's disheartening to me is that the ticket people have to go through this big disclaimer rigamarole and tell movie-goers that it's in Spanish and it's subtitled.

Disheartening? What's so wrong with having to read subtitles that you risk offending people by imposing it on them?

Fortunately the two times I went, we didn't get any of the stupid people scenes in the lobby or out front that I've heard about. I've read about people — from as few as two to as many as half the audience — getting up and leaving after a couple lines of dialog. Have we devolved so far that we can't be bothered to read? Sheesh. Stick around, see a good, well-crafted movie, expand your knowledge database and earn a few empathic brownie points while you're at it.

Okay, enough of the rant, on to the movie. No porn, not even a horrendous amount of gore, but it's still an unrelentingly dark, sad story. The Faun kicks ass on Tumnus any day, the Pale Man ogre is one of the coolest and creepiest monsters I've seen since <i>Hellraiser</i>, and the little girl who plays Ofelia is wonderfully well-cast. She's beautiful and tragic and your heart goes out to her instantly. It's dark, but it does have a happy ending. I won't say anymore because I don't want to plant any spoilers in the first post...

Anyway! Discuss.

[mdmf007]

I saw it this weekend withone of my mates, I didnt know anything about it and was sickened by the inhumanity the Captain displayed.

The Faun was a great character as were the little fairies.

Question here -
You think this was all in the mind of a little girl? trying to cope with the atrocities of war she obviously witnessed, and aill mother, and a demented step father?

or was it the real thing?

Overall It was a well filmed movie, very graphic though.

later all

[MikeVDS]

**************************
Spoilers below
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When the Captain shot her, he clearly looked at the faun and saw nothing. To me this indicated that it was all in her mind. Though there could be other explanations, like evil men can't see mystical creatures, etc, there was no other indication of this throughout the movie. To me it was important that he saw nothing, giving evidence that it was all in her mind. It solidifies the idea of human perseverance, rather than just being a fantasy story.

[MrMullen]

When the Captain shot her, he clearly looked at the faun and saw nothing. To me this indicated that it was all in her mind. Though there could be other explanations, like evil men can't see mystical creatures, etc, there was no other indication of this throughout the movie. To me it was important that he saw nothing, giving evidence that it was all in her mind. It solidifies the idea of human perseverance, rather than just being a fantasy story.

However, in the beginning of the movie, they say that children can see things adults can't.

Plus, the root and milk under the bed made the mother better. They would have not if it was not real.


PS> Awesome movie. Go see it if you have any taste and can read or know "okay" spanish.

[diane o'thirst]

<b>SPOILER ==============================•</b>












More importantly, there's a plot element that fairly screams against the "all in her head" theory.

How did she get out of her room and into the Captain's without alerting the guard at her own room's door?

[K-mom]

they were real, but only visible to the people who believed. its like an acid trip.

as an aside, i really liked how they avoided the obvious plotline of having the evil stepfather kill the root, and instead the mother was the cause of her own undoing.

[MikeVDS]

However, in the beginning of the movie, they say that children can see things adults can't.

Ahh I missed that. I guess I need to see it again.

[mdmf007]

and where would a little girl in the middle of WWII get Mandrake Root? What about the underground altar / temple / shrine? If i had to vote on it I would say that it happened for real - of course its a movie so it never really happened-lol
later

[dana]

and where would a little girl in the middle of WWII get Mandrake Root? What about the underground altar / temple / shrine? If i had to vote on it I would say that it happened for real - of course its a movie so it never really happened-lol
later

I believe it's called 'magical realism'. Similar to the book by Halpern - A Winters Tale.

Obviously when they make a movie like that they have to show some sort of juncture point from one realm to another. I loved the passage to the "underworld". That's kind of a classic symbol for the entry into the unconscious - the deep well with a winding stair going down.

The film implies the little girl is like all of us - she exists in both a physical realm and non-physical. The beginning of the film shows that she is aware of that and fully open to alternate reality. (Of course for most people, it all seems very concrete, solid, real - except in dreams and altered states.)
But in the film, the little girl is kind of a fluke. She doesn't really belong in the outer world, which is more a kind of testing ground or something for her.

Yeah, I liked that film a lot!! Definitely worth watching again. Lots of interesting stuff to digest. Like, why does she have to pit herself against the ogre thing? Kind of a classic bit from mythology there of not eating anything while in the other realm - and of course that is exactly what will happen. The ogre's food is other "innocents".

[Gravity Mike]

OK, now I've seen the movie...

I believe the activities were 'real' but the magical characters were not visible to the captain, etc. because they're magical and only appear to who they want to appear to and has nothing to do with the observer believing in them or not.

The thing that made me crazy: The faun to me seemed to be the devil. Also, the woman Mercedes warned the girl to not trust the faun! The root helped the mother because he wanted to earn the girl's trust. Supposedly in this imaginary world lies could not be told. However, in the third test, the Faun told the girl that he must trust him to pass the test. It turns out that NOT trusting him allowed her to pass the test. By not following the devil's instructions, she found herself in 'heaven' next to her 'father' i.e. God. The only inconsistency is that the devil is there with god in the end.

I did some googling on the devil, as this is not an American movie, and we're all used to the same tired old Christian views of the devil in American movies - so maybe a different viewpoint of the devil would be consistent with my suggested interpretation of the symolism in this film.

Earliest dieties were nuetral, not pure good or pure evil as in christianity or islam. Each tribe had is own single nuetral diety. As tribes merged, polytheism was born. Some gods were made dominately good, others dominately evil. Perhaps the view of the author of this story is along these lines, and the faun is in fact the devil, but a devil that has not been caste away by god.

Better reference, and perhaps a person knowledgeable of Judaism can confirm this (I'm a recovering Catholic, thank you): according to wiki, Judaism has no equivalent concept of the pure devil as in christianity and islam. In Hebrew, 'ha-satan' translates to 'obstacle.' Also, it was ha-satan that asked god to test Job after god points out his piety. It seems to me that the faun is consistent the Jewish ha-satan who works with god to seek out evil doers and test the piety of humans.

Thoughts? Please, comment...

In any matter, an excellent film full of interesting symbolism. Hat's off!!

Gravity

[diane o'thirst]

Well, originally (I'm not sure if it's Gnostic Judaeo-Christian or Islamic), the Devil was the brightest angel in Heaven and the angel that loved God the most. The host of angels were originally lesser gods and God came along and said, "Bow to no-one but Me," and the angelic host decided to go along with it, for whatever reasons.

Anyway, God then made humanity and said to the angelic host, "Bow to and serve them, too."

The Devil/Lucifer/Iblis was the only one who stood up to God and said, "No. You made us swear to serve and submit to only You. I keep my word." And God said, "Get out of My sight."

The Underworld of the story was where no lies could be told, so I guess if you look at the story that's true. Most of the movie <i>does not</i> occur in the underworld, but topside in the sun. Topside was supposed to be a place of suffering, death and violence: in short, Hell. This is very in line with Gnostic Catholicism's precepts, as well as Buddhist: all life is suffering, flesh is weak. So of course El Fauno was lying to Ofelia: he's a trickster, a contrary, and so were his little fairy pets. The tests were to determine how well she could think for herself.

Nice layer of thought to a very thought-provoking movie!

[dana]

OK, now I've seen the movie...
The thing that made me crazy: The faun to me seemed to be the devil. Also, the woman Mercedes warned the girl to not trust the faun! The root helped the mother because he wanted to earn the girl's trust. Supposedly in this imaginary world lies could not be told. However, in the third test, the Faun told the girl that he must trust him to pass the test. It turns out that NOT trusting him allowed her to pass the test. By not following the devil's instructions, she found herself in 'heaven' next to her 'father' i.e. God. The only inconsistency is that the devil is there with god in the end.

I did some googling on the devil, as this is not an American movie, and we're all used to the same tired old Christian views of the devil in American movies - so maybe a different viewpoint of the devil would be consistent with my suggested interpretation of the symolism in this film.

Earliest dieties were nuetral, not pure good or pure evil as in christianity or islam. Each tribe had is own single nuetral diety. As tribes merged, polytheism was born. Some gods were made dominately good, others dominately evil. Perhaps the view of the author of this story is along these lines, and the faun is in fact the devil, but a devil that has not been caste away by god.

Better reference, and perhaps a person knowledgeable of Judaism can confirm this (I'm a recovering Catholic, thank you): according to wiki, Judaism has no equivalent concept of the pure devil as in christianity and islam. In Hebrew, 'ha-satan' translates to 'obstacle.' Also, it was ha-satan that asked god to test Job after god points out his piety. It seems to me that the faun is consistent the Jewish ha-satan who works with god to seek out evil doers and test the piety of humans.

Thoughts? Please, comment...

In any matter, an excellent film full of interesting symbolism. Hat's off!!

Gravity

[One of the coolest things I've done for the true "cinema-phile" is called Interruptus with Roger Ebert at CU's yearly Conference of world Affairs. The first night the film is just screened straight through and subsequent nights it's taken apart bit by bit, with anyone who wants to, can stop the film to discuss a scene. Roger is rather unimaginative, but the audience is generally brilliant. This film would be perfect! Wait.... I see a new theme camp possibility?]

The faun and the form of Pan was most likely co-opted by the Christian church as the form of the devil. A lot of people seem to agree that the Christian and Catholic church carefully crowded out pagan religious practice by taking over holy sites (sometimes even building churches over them), taking over pagan holy days and converting them into Christmas, etc. and they probably also deliberately took over the form of Pan to make him into the devil.
I'm not quite sure I agree that the faun is meant have a trickster quality to him. I suspect the film-maker wanted to play with our ambiguous attitudes towards mystery, the unknown, and anything otherworldly. Ofelia - the innocent, is less encumbered by fears or preconceptions. So she is able to function fully in the other realm. But there's an interesting component to the fact that the faun orders the girl to do something he sincerely hopes she won't in fact do - giving up her brother for sacrifice. The antagonists in the film (the fascists) have a clear reference to Nazism, which was notable after the war for all the people who claimed they were merely following orders. The test is not so much of her thinking but of her heart and love.
Gravity, thanks for digging up the info on Ha-satan. I've always been told that Judaism has some interesting metaphysical concepts. "Obstacle" makes more sense. I think of the Devil as our egos - the misleading voice in the head, which can often be bypassed through the heart.

Thanks guys! This movie has become even more interesting.

[flightless]

In an interview, Del Toro said that he used to see the faun coming out of his wardrobe in the night -- it was a dream or hypnogogic vision from his own childhood.

So the faun is not (or not entirely) the Devil or Pan but may symbolize the unconscious, the irrational component of the mind.

[dana]

In an interview, Del Toro said that he used to see the faun coming out of his wardrobe in the night -- it was a dream or hypnogogic vision from his own childhood.

So the faun is not (or not entirely) the Devil or Pan but may symbolize the unconscious, the irrational component of the mind.

Diane! You posted this thread and now it's like that song that gets stuck in my head. Now I find myself trying to remember more details from the movie and trying to sort out the movie more. My current fascinoma.

I have this theory about these kinds of films and film makers (Hitchcock included.) I think part of it they carefully plan out, but the really cool stuff with the most intense surreal impact, they get through pure inspiration directly from their own subconscious and unconscious.

I suspect Del Toro didn't mean to make a direct reference to the devil with the faun. But the character of Faun (or Faunus) does seem to blend with the image of satyrs or Pan (partly depending on whether it's Greek or Roman mythology) But Pan is also still important to modern Wiccans. He's seen as the wild untamed force of nature that induces "panic" or wild lust. And I think the movie got it right in making him seem a little dangerous and unpredictable.
I just checked out the official movie site for shits and grin. Didn't have much except a comment from Del Toro in that he wanted all of the supernatural characters to seem a little dangerous at the same time they help - "even the fairies eat meat!"

ah... hypnogogic hallucinations. I haven't had any good ones in quite a while. sigh.

[diane o'thirst]

I loved how the film inverts the perception of Heaven and Hell. In the Underworld, lies and pain are unknown and the upper world is full of suffering and fear. The princess suffers and dies, alone and afraid and surrounded by enemies.

I never really saw the dark as threatening, or the night full of fear. Darkness shelters, calms and is very quieting. Darkness hides you from your enemies.

[dana]

I loved how the film inverts the perception of Heaven and Hell. In the Underworld, lies and pain are unknown and the upper world is full of suffering and fear. The princess suffers and dies, alone and afraid and surrounded by enemies.

I never really saw the dark as threatening, or the night full of fear. Darkness shelters, calms and is very quieting. Darkness hides you from your enemies.

Well I think that inversion is just another one of the things that got twisted around in Christian/Catholic cosmology. Prior to those religion's inception and bid for the domination of our psyche, the underworld was seen as a place of true power and mystery. People used to (some still) worship at sacred caves and grottoes, some of which were associated with Pan. The "underworld" is a classic symbol for the reaches of the subconscious. But of course the religious leaders hated the pagan ideas and wanted to focus people's attention on the afterlife and being pious. So the underworld and all the odd manifestations of consciousness to be found there got turned into hell and it denizens. Christian religion taught people to fear their impulses, darkness, mystery, their own power, etc. This movie is about diving headfirst into all of those things. (I'm surprised A. Zeus isn't posting to this thread. He loves this stuff!!)
If you think about it, the dark and night is often associated with Magick, Wicca and all that kind of stuff. Probably because in the light of day, our consciousness is more easily trapped in physicality. At night the psyche is free to roam....

[dana]

shit. this avatar sucks. It's just an advertisement!

Anybody know how to make the face just stay? I'm pretty computer illiterate.

[diane o'thirst]

Actually I think that avvie's pretty righteous. People need to see the visuals and then go see the movie. But you're right. No advertising on the Playa, there shouldn't be advertising here.

Here's a good site for non-animated pix of El Fauno and El Palido Hombre, as well as other things Doug Jonesly:

http://www.thedougjonesexperience.com/pan.htm

[MikeVDS]

I made the image of just the face for you:

Just right click and save the picture, then upload it to eplaya.
If you wanted the other face, let me know.

[diane o'thirst]

Rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrighteous!! People are avataring imagery from the film!

[dana]

I made the image of just the face for you:

Just right click and save the picture, then upload it to eplaya.
If you wanted the other face, let me know.

I love you man!!
No rilly, I mean it man!

(oh boy. I finally feel hip and cool enough to have my own avatar. You have no idea of the self loathing I've endured..... OK seriously, thanks!)

[dana]

Now I feel like rushing out and making more posts!!

[Gravity Mike]

I loved how the film inverts the perception of Heaven and Hell. In the Underworld, lies and pain are unknown and the upper world is full of suffering and fear. The princess suffers and dies, alone and afraid and surrounded by enemies.

I never really saw the dark as threatening, or the night full of fear. Darkness shelters, calms and is very quieting. Darkness hides you from your enemies.

Yeah, the inversion - it really changes everything!

And thanks all for more background on paganism, christians, and 'the devil'. Interesting movie, interesting discussion... A perspective we'd likely never see from Hollywood.

and nice avatar, a little bit more scary than my ground-sniffing buddy 'professor winston.' I've thought about any significance to that creature having his eyes on his hands, and having them removeable - I've come up with nothing. Maybe it's just random, but maybe not.

Cheers,

Gravity

[diane o'thirst]

Found Doug Jones' profile on Myspace.

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fu ... =101440562

Also found a neat download site on there, full of goodies:

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fu ... d=68183680

[flightless]

NPR had a nice interview with Guillermo del Toro the other day -- you can listen to it on the website:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... Id=7422528

(I love his voice.)

[dana]

as an aside, i really liked how they avoided the obvious plotline of having the evil stepfather kill the root, and instead the mother was the cause of her own undoing.

I finally put this one together. (Well duh... sorta.)

The movie makes a lot of interesting points on how well the different characters perceive their true reality - (which the movie shows is often hidden from easy view.) One reason I like this movie so much is that it actually makes some coherant points about "magical reality" Magick is about making changes in subjective reality, which then show up as changes in objective reality. (Another inversion.)
One of the plot-lines is what's going on with the love between Ofelia and her mother. Her mother gradually makes a stronger bid for the love of the captain and she often does this by shunning or trying to twist Ofelia into something she isn't. She ends up ignoring the wonder of Ofelia for the love of a man who doesn't actually love her in return. (He just wants her as a breeder who can give him a son.) So in that final act of "betrayal" against Ofelia, she does seal her own fate and then dies in childbirth for that son.
Fucking cool plot twist!!