Who has the right to fundraise?

[Dork]

Mallet - off the top of my head:
1) This is the first I'm hearing about your project, and I spend a lot of time on various boards. Perhaps your blog isn't getting as much attention as you suspect.
2) Most people aren't buying stuff from Amazon every day. You'd only catch those who read your blog when they happened to be about to buy something, or who remembered when they later went to buy and were willing to go through the hassle of finding the post.
3) Anyone can SAY they're building some great project, but without a track record and/or detailed progress reports showing cool things happening it would be hard to get people to take you seriously. A lot of projects that are talked about this early get dumped or turn out to not be nearly as cool as hoped.

I'm in pretty much the same situation (few local burners, big art car project) and I'm keeping things small enough so I can just pay for the thing myself. I may apply for a grant if I can get the plans sufficiently solid early on but I'm not counting on anything.

[dragonfly Jafe]

...Why would this idea meet with general indifference? ....

I cannot speak for everyone, but when I bought some stuff 2 weeks ago I remembered your plea, and spent several minutes trying to find the link, to no avail (I hate the Eplaya search engine, it has NEVER succeeded in finding what I was looking for). I then gave up and just bought the stuff using the Amazon.com site. Maybe if you renew your post every few weeks you might get a better response. Good luck!

[Major Mallet]

Thanks Dork,

To your points - Yes, I have not pushed the fundraising as hard as I could so far. One reason was that I had not developed my blog as much as I wanted. It is looking pretty good now so I am more confident about trying to get the word out. Folks can see that I am interested in the event enough to build a detailed concept, maintain a blog and get an invite to stay with one of the more popular camps.

Also, I agree that getting folks to remember to use my link is going to be difficult. One thing I am hoping for is to find a few burners that purchase for corporate accounts via Amazon. Again, I would not ask anyone to purchase anything they would not buy anyway. But if your company is going to spend with Amazon, well . . . .

Any thoughts on how to get the word out about this program or to build credibility with the BM community?

[Major Mallet]

Jafe,

I appreciate the thought - thanks. Would it be appropriate to repost the link every few weeks here? The page in question is here:

http://brclrdg.com/blog/?p=35

[AntiM]

It would be better to bump the original thread/post rather than create a new one each time.

When I do buy on Amazon, I go through a charity bazaar and donate to MS.

[MikeVDS]

I'm on here quite a bit and this is the first I've heard of your plans. What exactly will the vehicle be? I saw the mission but not any plans of what you're making.

[Toolmaker]

Any thoughts on how to get the word out about this program or to build credibility with the BM community?

Having more than 6 posts would help. Spending some time providing some insight to other peoples projects would help as well. Personally I think your concept crosses over the line and is commerce, after all you are using Amazon. Considering your location in PA you may have better luck organizing locally. I hear a themecamp is a good way to go to get folks united in an art car project. Maybe you can find some folks in your area that are BM participants that are willing to not only help fund but help build it. Asking for handouts or percentages of sales in any form will probably result in a less than favorable response from the community.

[gyre]

Sounds like a good idea to me.
I rarely use amazon though.

[Major Mallet]

MikeVDS - The vehicle will be a modern pick-up truck modified to look like an LRDG (Long Range Desert Group) raiding vehicle. The truck concept is explained in detail here:

http://brclrdg.com/blog/?page_id=7

The missions I envision for the truck are here:

http://brclrdg.com/blog/?page_id=9

Toolmaker: I agree - having more than six posts would give me more credibility. I am a virgin burner, however, so I spend most of my time reading what the more experienced burners have to say and only post when I have a question. To your point about providing insight into other people's projects, I have been talking to a number of camps and other folks about their projects at BM and writing posts on my blog about them. I find it an interesting way to learn more about the event.

Finally, I also agree with you that asking for handouts or donations might not go over well. As a newbie it will be quite difficult to not only roundup what few burners live anywhere near me but also get them to work on my project versus their projects. One question for you: can you explain why in your estimation my affiliate concept may cross the "commercial" line while other, no less commercial events like fundraising parties, do not? To be clear, I appreciate your advice - I just would like you to explain this one point in a bit more detail.

[MikeVDS]

Ahh, that's cool.

You may want to write the DMV about that one too. It's not an everyday vehicle but it's a produced one that we've all seen variants of, so they might say its not an "art" car. I know art is subjective and you're making more of an interactive art show out of it, but there are already a lot of vehicles driving around out there and I'm not sure where they will draw the line.

[Token]

The vehicle will be a modern pick-up truck modified to look like an LRDG (Long Range Desert Group) raiding vehicle. The truck concept is explained in detail here:

http://brclrdg.com/blog/?page_id=7

The missions I envision for the truck are here:

http://brclrdg.com/blog/?page_id=9

Major, the BM07 DMV opens tomorrow, Feb 15th. Before you spend any more time on this project, you may want to send in the pre-registration plans and fill in all the forms.

I have a hunch that the DMV Hotties will not grant a license.

The LRDG, minus the two guns, looks pretty much like the truck the cable guy drove past my house the other day.

The rule of thumb for art cars: If you can see the base vehicle, it ain't good enough.

[Archantael]

Opinions are like assholes in that everyone has one...IMHO it's not radical enough to be called a "mutant vehicle". I would visit the main BM page and check out the Galleries > Mobile Art.
http://images.burningman.com/index.cgi? ... 12&go.y=14

What you propose compared to the stuff the DMV hotties have already permitted would be a great start to a project but certainly not a complete one. I'd dig through those images for more inspiration, then go check out the DMV specs when they post them and proceed from there.

(I will say that I think you've got the start to something cool here with a bit more work and inspiration!)

[Toolmaker]

One question for you: can you explain why in your estimation my affiliate concept may cross the "commercial" line while other, no less commercial events like fundraising parties, do not? To be clear, I appreciate your advice - I just would like you to explain this one point in a bit more detail.

Sure.. A fundraiser party at a small club is nothing like outright sales. If you read the TOS you will find a legalese description thats not too confusing. Gifting is OK according to the TOS but sales seem to be verboten the way I interpret the TOS. Just look at whats on your own website and ask yourself if it is commerce.

(LRDG EXCERPT)
Revenue generated from Amazon affiliate sales. If you click on the link below to access Amazon, Amazon will pay us a small portion of your order as a commission. You DO NOT get charged any more to place your order - Amazon pays us out of their profits. If you are going to order from Amazon, we would really be grateful if you would click on the Amazon links on the Original LRDG page.
Sales of BRC-LRDG patches. We are working on a logo for the BRC-LRDG and will have it made into a patch that we will offer for sale.
(END EXCERPT)

(TOS EXCERPT)
Non Commercial Use by Members. The Eplaya is for the personal use of individual Members only and may not be used in connection with any commercial endeavors. Organizations, companies, and/or businesses may not become Members and may not use the Eplaya for any purpose.

The following is a partial list of the kind of Content that is illegal or prohibited on the Eplaya. Burning Man reserves the right to investigate and take appropriate legal action in its sole discretion against anyone who violates this provision, including without limitation, removing the offending post from the Service and terminating the membership of such violators, in connection with all available civil, criminal, and injunctive remedies. You agree not to use the Service to:

engages in commercial activities and/or sales such as contests, sweepstakes, barter, advertising, and pyramid schemes;
(END EXCERPT)


Now about your concept.. looks like something that would be very welcome in Terminal City with Kilbuck. I wouldn't go as far as calling it an art car concept but it would look really nice parked at his themecamp or a camp with a similar motif.

[Major Mallet]

Thanks everyone for the input! I sincerely appreciate it.

The vehicle concept may not be as radical as some of the other stunning mutant vehicles at BM but I believe that it deserves a place on the playa. Let me explain. The original LRDG actually did not conduct raids as much as they served to guide other military formations, perform reconnaissance and generally assist other units in their tasks. To accomplish their mission they “mutatedâ€

[Toolmaker]

I am OK with fundraising activity that does not involve illegal or direct corporate sponsorship and that puts more gifting, art or useful infrastructure on the Playa. How about anyone else out there – what in your opinion constitutes appropriate fundraising?

By advertising for Amazon and asking people to buy from them to raise your funds you are essentially getting corporate sponsorship. But things are changing with BM.. we all smell it in the air. Good luck with your eCommerce venture with Amazon.com sales. Maybe if you get enough burners to shop there they will pay for the paint job.

[gyre]

I had already heard of amazon before he posted this idea.
They aren't charging extra for this, right?

[Toolmaker]

I had already heard of amazon before he posted this idea.
They aren't charging extra for this, right?

No they are not.. Amazon pays a percentage of their take to the user. From what I understand anyone can utilize this type of feature on Amazon. I think it is outright corporate sponsorship and commerce based on what I read in the TOS. The line in the TOS concerning sales is somewhat blurry when it comes to something like this. Since he is not selling anything but the patches outright it seems OK. It doesn't really matter.. in 08 we will have so many corporate sponsors involved in the community it will just like the default world. From what I read in the blog this user is part of Killbucks themecamp so if I need to buy anything from Amazon (though doubtful) I will try to make a point to use it to show support for Terminal City/Apokiliptika.

[Dork]

I must disagree with you that fundraising parties are OK while asking for folks to click on an affiliate link is not. Granted, it is a lot more fun to go to a party then remember to click on a link. At the end of the day, however, both events are designed to generate revenue to provide entertainment, art, or infrastructure on the playa. Selling tickets to a party is no less of a commercial activity than collecting revenue via eCommerce. I think you would agree with me that the issue ultimately boils down to the intent behind the fundraising – not the necessarily the actual method of the fundraising. I am OK with fundraising activity that does not involve illegal or direct corporate sponsorship and that puts more gifting, art or useful infrastructure on the Playa. How about anyone else out there – what in your opinion constitutes appropriate fundraising?

There's two seperate issues here - what is appropriate fundraising, and what is appropriate on Eplaya. Pretty much anything that's legal and ethical is fine for raising money for a project. If you sell cars for a living and use that money to build something, great. If you were to start posting ads here for the cars, that would be against the rules. You could justify it all you want - people are buying cars anyway, why not from me to support art? That wouldn't keep it from being against the rules.

We don't allow commerce largely because it could easily dominate the forum and make normal discussion very difficult if it were allowed. 100 people could all post their own Amazon affiliate link, ing referral, ebay auction link, custom playa wear offer, etc. Until such time as we can build a seperate commerce area, I don't see it happening.

I'm not sure I understand why fundraising parties are considered ok, but I think some of it has to do with difficulty telling the difference between a "regional" and a for-profit party, and because the number of posts like that have been small enough to not have prompted a big discussion.

[AntiM]

Personally, as long as the link and the name Amazon is off site, not directly on eplaya, I wouldn't be too worried about it. I've taken down links which went directly to commercial sites (tarot readings was the last one). However, if a person says , "Hey, this is my project, this is my blog, and there's ways to help if you like" without going into details about an Amazon link here on eplaya, I'd tend to overlook it. (That's pretty literal, I rarely follow links to other sites from the eplaya.) That's a personal opinion, and a rule of thumb, if the community objects strongly, I'm more likely to sit up and take notice. Like now. But really, we do refer each other to good deals, and that is specifically allowed. Q&A would be pretty barren if we took down each and every recommendation.

And hey, he is asking and trying to find out the best way to do his thing.

I think a party is different because is is participatory. You go, usually in playagear, and intermingle and well, participate. A far cry from donating funds impersonally online to a camp or project which you might or might not see on the playa at all.

And that's my thoughts on it. As to what it means to me as a mod, well, here I am reading what y'all gots to say, including the discussion down in fFeedback. Community input.

[Major Mallet]

Like the rest of you, I don’t want BM to turn into a corporate theme park. Although I still disagree that affiliate linking constitutes corporate sponsorship, I do understand that I am getting closer to a line that most burners do not want to cross. With that in mind, I will not promote the idea using ePlaya. I would rather wait to build the truck next year (when I will be able to just pay for it on my own) than adopt tactics that might help erode the barriers to direct corporate sponsorship. I also don’t want to set an example of filling a discussion board with ads for fundraisers. More than anything else, I want to make certain that my participation at BM is not only fun but remains true to the spirit of the event.

Thanks Toolmaker and Dork for taking the time to put your two cents in about the sponsorship. AntiM – thanks as well for your thoughts on the parties vs. linking as a fundraiser. I am with you on that point – parties are a hell of a lot more fun and interactive than a link.

[gyre]

Anyone out there who goes to fundraisers at great distances can complain about other approaches.
Otherwise.....

Let's hear your idea?

[Token]

That LRDG would make for one fine Plushy safari. BRC Animal Control might be a group you want to talk to.

[Major Mallet]

Token,

I have been in touch with the BRCAC and we will be working on ways to use the truck for animal round-ups. I like the safari theme - I will have to give that some more thought.

[wedeliver]

Major Mallet,

The problem I have with your manner of raising money is that perhaps you are just using Burning Man. Your attention to detail is great and it looks like you are for real, but.....for a minimum of effort you could make several thousands of dollars. All you need to do is get eplaya to advertise for you, have people that believe you are sincere and if 1000 people order $20.00 through your site at 8% thats $1,600.00. No one has anyway of determining how much is purchased through your site if you were to claim later that you needed more exposure because of lack of earnings.

thats my 2 cents

[gyre]

It's probably a percentage of the profit amazon makes off the $20 purchase.

[Major Mallet]

Wedeliver – Good points. The fact of the matter is that I am an unknown quantity to the Burning Man community. For all anyone knows, I might be on the level or I might be a fraud. Given the number of attempts that people make to scam BM I now understand the community’s apprehension to my fundraising. Aside from a few burner friends, I have no connection to the event at all. I underestimated the need to build trust before approaching the BM community with a fundraising idea. Looking back, it is a lot more obvious to me that I need to attend the event, make some friends and flesh out the project concept more. This will give me a better perspective on Burning Man, the scope of my project and if I should even attempt to fundraise in the first place.

I do appreciate all of your comments – they really are helpful.

[helitack]

But what if someone advertises their business with the little "www." on the bottom of each post they make?

[Major Mallet]

I removed all affiliate links from my blog. The link at the bottom of my posts goes to a blog that is purely informational.

[helitack]

Wasn't referring to you though...

[Major Mallet]

Helitack - understood. After considering the points made by others on this thread I realized that all of the links on the blog had to go. I want the blog to be about the project and the interesting stuff I find out about Burning Man.