Solar power

phil · Post by **phil** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:21 am

http://www.otherpower.com/

"the cutting edge of low technology" they say.

Home brew wind turbins in kit form, with all the parts apparently available separately, based on my quick glance.

timburly · Post by **timburly** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 6:34 pm

If your mechanically inclined then you could easily build one off their site without having to order the "kit".

As for twisting wires.....i'll be corrected on this....there is a type of bearing and i can't remember exactally what its called but it allows a pivot point for the electrical hookups. Or if the wind comes in mainly one direction you can just leave slack in the wiring and it let it twist up. You just have to go out there every now and then and un-twist it from the bottom.

As for the environmental impacts of building solar pannels yea its dirty, but so is the building of generators, the building of tarps, all the PVC thats used, the strip mining to get metals, ect ect ect. You just have to pick your battles and go with it. The thing with solar is most quality pannels have around a 25 year warranty on them and in their use your not creating more pollution. I think that beats running a generator thats only good for X amount of hours use. Now don't get me started on the fact that most solar technology is owned by big oil companies.......

diane o'thirst · Post by **diane o'thirst** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 9:36 pm

I'm...mostly okay with that. Big company means big buying power and also big distribution network. If that's what it takes to proliferate it, no arguments.

Also, it's a smart business move on their part. They're diversifying away from petro, which is in limited supply. Crude oil will go away in about twenty years, whereas the sun won't go away for at least another 5 billion years.

Strip-mining...sure, some of that's going on but there's also salvage and recycling. Every country does that now, to varying degrees. Today's wine bottles will likely be tomorrow's solar panels.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 9:38 pm

Solar panels are very justifiable for steady portable use, such as an rv.
The break point on the grid used to be 18-35 miles.
If it's a cabin with no heavy use, it might be much easier to justify.
The problem with burning man is it's only a week now.
If you come out for months to camp, then enough power for lighting would be easy to justify.
Start running a fridge and it gets more complicated.

Solar water heating is very efficient.

BAS · Post by **BAS** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 11:07 am

As for twisting wires.....i'll be corrected on this....there is a type of bearing and i can't remember exactally what its called but it allows a pivot point for the electrical hookups. Or if the wind comes in mainly one direction you can just leave slack in the wiring and it let it twist up. You just have to go out there every now and then and un-twist it from the bottom.

Ah, knowing me, it would probably make sense to get the bearings (I tend to procrastinate things like climbing up or taking down a tower and untwisting wires). I don't recall those bearings being mentioned in the MAKE article, then again, their generator was on a tower which could be lowered (relatively) easily. (I don't recall it looking easy to do the untwisting from the bottom, but I could be wrong. The magazine is packed, and I am not even certain in which box, darn it all!)

I've got mixed feelings about Big Oil producing the lion's share of solar panels-- it is good for distribution, but bad for spreading the wealth around. (And there is more to this issue, but I am getting ready to log off and get something to eat for lunch!

)

B.

Post by **mdmf007** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 12:19 pm

a Commutator is what your looking for if you need electrical connections to rotate without breaking. they are also made for fluids,

later

motskyroonmatick · Post by **motskyroonmatick** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 12:19 pm

On the twisting wire problem. I used to work on a large farm that had 9 pivot irrigation fields. They are those large circular crop fields you see in the upper mid west every time you fly in that area. The system they use could be replacated on a small scale for wind generators and I assume there are products that can be purchased for just this thing but I have never seen one. It allows continual rotation and constant supply of electricity.
Since most people are familiar with record player I will try to describe it in that form. So you have this record that is attached to the top of the wind generator mast and the pivot point for the generator head comes up throught the center of the record. The record stays in one place while the generator head moves with the wind to any point on a 360 degree circle. Then there are three needles that drop off the generator head and strike the record in three differnt spots as measured from the center of the record. Each needle has a circular zone on the record where only it hits and it is held down in that spot. Now imagine the circular zone where each of those needles hit (on the record) is a copper conductor and each needle is a copper conductor as well. The copper conductors from the generator head would be connected to the positive negative and a ground to the body of the generator(I assume). The circular copper conductors that are on the "record" would have a connection point that would drop through the "record" and be attached to wires that would go down the mast to whatever is on the ground.

Probably clear as mud.

motskyroonmatick · Post by **motskyroonmatick** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 12:21 pm

Damn! I type too slow!!!

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 1:08 pm

mdmf007 wrote:a Commutator is what your looking for if you need electrical connections to rotate without breaking. they are also made for fluids,

later

What?
Fluids?

timburly · Post by **timburly** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 2:45 pm

The otherpower guys basicly have a hatch in the bottom of the tower where the wires come down. There is a plug there that allows them to unhook the wires and untwist them from the ground. Remember, "The CUTTING EDGE of Low Technology" lol

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 2:48 pm

They make some braided wire in steel and copper that is designed for a great deal of flexing.
You can also use microstranded which is amazingly limp.

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 3:09 pm

How about a 179 degree stop in both directions..It's not going to whip 360 that offten..It should be tied down if the wind gets that crazy..

BAS · Post by **BAS** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 4:30 pm

Well, true, the wind whipping around probably wouldn't be a problem during the week of Burning Man. (If it did get that crazy, there probably would be a lot of other, more pressing problems than the wind generators, I guess.) I was curious from a long term viewpoint. I've always liked the idea of being, at least mostly, off grid for power. (Not so certain about for water, at least not here in the land of pasture run-off and other such stuff. Who knows what might be seeping down into the water table?)

Thanks for the answers. So, the term I want to try'n remember is "Commutator", and the description of how it works..., I'll need to read again when my brain is a bit more focused....

B.

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 4:58 pm

BAS wrote:Well, true, the wind whipping around probably wouldn't be a problem during the week of Burning Man. (If it did get that crazy, there probably would be a lot of other, more pressing problems than the wind generators, I guess.) I was curious from a long term viewpoint. I've always liked the idea of being, at least mostly, off grid for power. (Not so certain about for water, at least not here in the land of pasture run-off and other such stuff. Who knows what might be seeping down into the water table?)

Thanks for the answers. So, the term I want to try'n remember is "Commutator", and the description of how it works..., I'll need to read again when my brain is a bit more focused....

B.

\/
Two blocks of hard wood.. One on the movable shaft and one attach to the base of the tower.. Wires run down to the movable block..Through the block to copper conductors attached to the bottom of the block.. Forming two tracks pos & neg.. Base block has two matching copper conductors.. Suggest the copper circle be at least 1/8 or better thick.. The two sets of bar will have to rub together so a conductive lub is used..Take away wires from the bottom block...

Old invention for passing juice through a moving part, but it works well..

BAS · Post by **BAS** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 7:22 pm

Thanks, that's even easier to understand!

B.

timburly · Post by **timburly** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 7:26 pm

unjonharley wrote:How about a 179 degree stop in both directions..It's not going to whip 360 that offten..It should be tied down if the wind gets that crazy..

The "tail" on the wind geny is not at 90 degrees to the prop. Instead its a few degrees one way or the other that way if the wind picks up it basicly pushes the prop out of the wind so that it doesn't overspeed. But the I'm not sure if i would want to be around it if the winds are going 70+mph who knows when the wooden props would shatter. But then again it is burning man why not add the possibility of getting a splinter through your head

We are using a southwest windpower Air-X, its small and has carbon fiber blades. Not to worried about it blowing apart.

BAS · Post by **BAS** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 7:38 pm

We are using a southwest windpower Air-X, its small and has carbon fiber blades. Not to worried about it blowing apart.

Yeah, I got told during the AEZ tour that Southwest is the way to go for wind power. Then again, building your own for BM has a certain appeal (along with the possibility of disintegrating blades during a major dust storm...!

)

B.

Tiahaar · Post by **Tiahaar** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 11:28 pm

BAS wrote:(along with the possibility of disintegrating blades during a major dust storm...! )
B.

ha yeah what would happen to a six blade prop if one tip broke off...the one I have on a mast Says its good for 100mph winds and it doesn't have a system to turn it out of high winds, lets not find out on playa. "Slip rings" are another term for those things making electrical connections around a pivot point, but I too just use a heavy extension cord and have never had to unplug and untwist it. Parts are from http://www.hydrogenappliances.com

Post by **mdmf007** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 9:40 am

If you break a blade off, remove the opposite blade and it will still be balanced.

skygod · Post by **skygod** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 10:14 am

quote="jaycerochester"]
A panel to charge the battery in a day would need to be about 240 watts. [/quote]
Pardon my ignorance!
I recently bought one of those Sunsei solar panels mentioned by Dustmonkey to keep the aux battery in my vw camper charged when I'm camping.
It's a 6 watt panel. So that's 6 watts per hour? So it would take 40 hours at peak efficiency to charge a 12 volt battery?
Doesn't seem like much juice.

MikeVDS · Post by **MikeVDS** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:39 pm

Watt is a unit of power, which is energy over time. So for example a 30 watt lightbulb is always drawing 30 watts as long as it is on. Which also means that your panel is always generating 6 watts as long as it's getting the proper sunlight.

Every device you use should have a watt rating. An easy way to track energy would be to use watt-hours, which is how many watts you've used during a certain number of hours. So if you had used the 30 watt lightbulb for 2 hours you have used (30 watts x 2 hours =)60 watt-hours of energy. Let's assume you panel generates an average of 6 watts over a 10 hour day. That would give you (6 watts x 10 hours =) 60 watt-hours of energy. So with your charger you can run that 30 watt lightbulb for 2 hours and completely recharge the next day. No, that's not a whole lot of energy.

As far as charging your battery from complete discharge, that depends on the storage capacity of the battery which is usually in amp-hours. To get that in watt hours just multiply amp-hours x volts (12 in your case) and you'll have the rating in watt-hours. A typical car battery has 100 amp-hours so you'd have 1,200 watt-hours and take your charger about 20 days to completely charge it from a discharged state.

Hope that helps some.

MikeVDS · Post by **MikeVDS** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 4:20 pm

So to break it down for you:

Estimates:
Battery: Holds up to 1200 watt-hours
Your solar Charger: Adds 60 watt-hours every day
60 watt lightbulb: Uses 60 watt-hours every hour
60 watt lightbulb: Uses 360 watt hours over a 6 hour period

Using this as a rough estimate you can figure out how much and how often you can use your battery. As you can see you'd probably be better off just getting another battery. Those types of solar panels are more for emergencies. So you can recharge your own battery if you're off in the boonies and you only need enough energy to start the car back up.

Post by **mdmf007** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 5:39 pm

You could always attach a couple of one wire alternators, or the type of alternator with the voltage regulator installed on it on it to a bike and peddle your heart away. The one in our shop makes a couple hundred watts or so at 14 volts.

make it kitchy, with buzzers, led lights and a flailing head like on jackass, and you can get people walking by it to peddle for you.

skygod · Post by **skygod** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 6:02 pm

Everything helps.
It's just good to know what range the payback for doing solar is.

MikeVDS · Post by **MikeVDS** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 6:21 pm

They are also handy for recharging cell phones or running keeping your battery from dying if you're only going to occasionally run small appliances.

I have a 2watt panel that folds into a nice small case with lots of adapters and 12 or 6 volt settings.

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 7:41 pm

MikeVDS wrote:They are also handy for recharging cell phones or running keeping your battery from dying if you're only going to occasionally run small appliances.

I have a 2watt panel that folds into a nice small case with lots of adapters and 12 or 6 volt settings.

My CD player takes 4.5v @ 600mA.. That's not much power..But if I have to get the power from a 12v battery it take 50% to power the conveter..I have two baby panels that will each produce the volts but not enough current to run..Can I tie the two inline, then tie inlne rechargable batteries to achive the current?..This would go into the adapter port..It takes two AA bateries in the battery compartment..With battery in place it will not accept juice in the port..

timburly · Post by **timburly** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:22 pm

why not just get a small solar battery charger for AA's then switch them out when needed...

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:33 pm

timburly wrote:why not just get a small solar battery charger for AA's then switch them out when needed...

\/
It takes 5 hours to charge..45 min to deplete..

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:40 pm

Unjon, you're making my head hurt.
You could get a more efficient convertor to your voltage needed.

If you are talking about inline panels it can be tricky.
You may need to ask the manufacturer.
Are they identical? From the same lot?

It is pretty normal to charge batteries while they are used.

Does this help any?

Post by **mdmf007** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 10:22 pm

if all you are running is a cd player your car battery will run it all week with no problems.