Psychedelic Culture

[whataboutbob85]

Well everyone. The few assholes on this board have managed to piss me off enough to make me leave. So to all you assholes, you can go fuck yourselves. I tried to start a mature, responsible discussion but you just had to keep provoking me when you had no idea what you're talking about.

Anyone who wants to continue this discussion, feel free to email me at [email protected]

Otherwise, Fuck Off and Goodbye. I don't need your approval.

Live life, no regrets.

[Rian Jackson]

Timothy Leary... damn, I tried to read one of his books.. but the spiritual psychobabble bullshit eventually got to me.

Hey WaBob, you might want to consider that when you do get caught again - and despite however smart you think you are (cause posting about your drug exploits on a public board is really quite sneaky) you're very likely to end up in cuffs again. That's what your history tells me. You're not a minor anymore, and it's not likely to be a neat little slap on the wrist.

I think drug laws in this country are BS. I believe in civil disobedience. However, I've heard the same justifications before... this is, I believe, what happens when you cross someone with an activist's mind with a drug problem. You won't do a lot of good when you're behind bars for it.

[joel the ornery]

don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out.

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[Lassen Forge]

Well everyone. The few assholes on this board have managed to piss me off enough to make me leave. So to all you assholes, you can go fuck yourselves. I tried to start a mature, responsible discussion but you just had to keep provoking me when you had no idea what you're talking about.

Anyone who wants to continue this discussion, feel free to email me at (link removed)

Otherwise, Fuck Off and Goodbye. I don't need your approval.

Live life, no regrets.

To quote Bill the Cat...

PTTTTHTH!

You can tell...

Here's a guy, ripe old age of, what, 20, with all of, what, 13 posts and already has *us* clocked as Azzoles who should, pardon the vernacular, "Fuck Off"?

Wow. I'm impressed. No wonder he feels he's so mature and responsible... That post sure shows it.

I know a *lot* of people who are around age who genuinely *are* mature, responsible for their own shit, tend to TCB, and can act as adults in this here society. (This coming from a 40-something granny...)

Then again, there are others...

For one, I am certainly glad he needeth not my approval - for he receiveth it not.

[spectabillis]

For what its worth...


I am glad that this ended. Since I dont see many constructive comments and only an escalation of bitching, insulting, and such - threads like these would be my first choice of locking down.

People made thier points, but its becomming obvious others look for an opportunity to feel justified in this. Granted, some people may deserve social backlash for thier comments and actions... but that does not provide an excuse for some sort of communal beating.

[Ms.Y.Depraved]

A little advice. Beware of those who call themselves shamans. To medicine men and women shaman is a dirty word, if they are calling themselves shaman it's egotism at it's worst. Medicine people never call themselves shamans. I have a friend who calls himself a shaman and i'm constantly teaching him! His ego is unreal and quite difficult to deal with, he often chooses to stay in his ignorance no matter how much factual evidence I give him to prove him wrong about certain issues he refuses to change his mind about that he wants to stubbornly cling to. For example he refuses to believe the U.S. uses depleted uranium amo because he says God tells him the U.S. would never do that. When I told him search d.u. on the net he refuses. Also...
Guru is another one that unless they are recognized (and I mean by thousands as such) as a saint or real guru from India beware. Even so some guru's you should be on guard about too. Sai Baba is a recognized guru and according to many published reports he may quite possibly be a pedophile (he's not for me to judge) just saying he's a recognized guru with millions of followers and temples in India with his name and thousands of devotee's who give him lots of $ despite many different reports of him being a pedophile from many sources.
Why do I say this because I'm a young medicine woman who knows better from 41 years of experience and 22 yrs as a healing conduit. I won't even say I'm a healer because people heal themselves and I just assist them. I've been given hawk and eagle feathers for my work. Not bragging (cause lord you know my work ain't easy) just to give ya a bit of backround from where I'm coming from.BTW I also lived with Tim Leary and he hated and I mean really detested being called a guru.
So if your so called shamn friend is calling him or herself a shaman beware. If you on the other hand is calling them a shaman ask the person you speak of if they like that term for themselves.
ok I'm done ranting now. Just looking out for my fellow burners.

[Lassen Forge]

Man... (giggles)

From my experience - those who style themselves "medicine folk" or "shaman" or "guru" usually have some alterior motive. Not always, but usually. Yet they still can be Guru if you listen. EVERYONE has a lesson to give - if you can be receptive.

One of the best lessons taught me by a self-acclaimed "medicine man" from one of the local Pomo bands was... don't trust those who claim to have powers. Wasn't his motive, but it was a lesson nonetheless. So yeah, he *was* a shaman, but not in the essence he tried to put himself off to be. He did teach other things, but it was the lesson he didn't intend to teach that stayed with me.

You can tell the jist of a person by the feel you get from them, the aura they put out, the chutzpah they project. Healer? ANYONE can be a healer if they so desire. Guru? Anyone can be a guru (even the slimy ones) if they have something to teach.

Especially those who have something to teach who don't realize they have something to teach, and do so anyway.

There's an old parable thing about a mustard seed... with that kind of faith ANYTHING is possible. Can you allow your belief to overcome your doubt? Truly? Not just say it, but *know* it? Then you can. Is SIMPLE!!!

On to the other half of this...

Personalities. It doesn't matter *who* you met, or who you knew, as much as it matters if you learned the gift they were there to teach you. And to me - fame isn't the "make or break" to whether they had something to teach - after all, EVERYONE has a lesson to teach.

Even worse... famous people, to those close to them, are actually just (gasp) people. Did you know that cute guy as the friendly, somewhat introverted guy who was hard to get to talk sometimes who also liked Cutty and Rootbeer, or the famous guitarist who changed the way guitar was played? Have you been invited to look through their photo album or shot the shit about old cars (or, worse, wrenched on their old car with them)? Or told them to f*** off? Aye... there's the rub.

Yet... (Don't ya love "yets"?)... on the other hand - everyone *does* have a connection with everyone else. Now *thats* cool... And those who know that, feel it and see it and smile. Or cry.

Where it becomes sad is when people have so much fear they won't go up and meet someone, and say hi, or worse, tell someone else "You can't go up to *him*, you know who *that* is?" (My usual response is "No, but I'm gonna go find out!")

Anyway, time to get back to the millstone. Next time you see Larry, or Rex, or Shelli, or even bb, shake their hand and tell him I said hi!

Even if you don't know who they are... yet!

bb

[Ugly Dougly]

That's your experience, Sue.

[Badger]

If anyone ever describes themselves to me as a 'shaman' they get the same Blast - O - Shit that I give when I hear the word 'Artist'. Emphasis on capital 'a.'

[theCryptofishist]

Um, Badger, you dropped your rattle.









*Fishy ducks from potential sh*tstorm and wonders why she doesn't just have her sence of humor exsorcized.*

[MikeVDS]

People who proclaim their credentials in casual conversations to try to impress or convince others of their worth, usually do not deserve the connotations that come along with those credentials. This is not always the case, but usually.

And by the way I've studied psychology extensively for the last 15 years and have been published multiple times so I, and only I, have the authority to comment.

[gyre]

So, Badger.
Who's your favorite artist?

[AntiM]

Back in the 70s I learned to never trust "shamans" who told me I had to get nekkid for them to study my aura. Useful lesson which could also be applied to dealing with bogus "coven masters." For my 18 year old flaky self, that was a major educational leap. Took me longer to develop the "fuck you" verbal response, I was shy.

[Lassen Forge]

That's your experience, Sue.

Yep. You're right. It is. In several dimensions.

bb

[Toolmaker]

I have never had the displeasure of meeting any of the "phoney" shaman/guru type people face to face. I did however have the pleasure of seeing a travelling "christian" faith healer type. This was actually quite entertaining. Kinda like a visit to a circus without the elephant poop and clowns. Or is that just with elephant poop and clowns? Anyway it was great entertainment ontheless. I was a little sorry to see that some folks actually believed the tripe that was fed to them. I do however want to meet a first nation "medicine man" one day mianly to see natural herbal medicine in action. I would also like to try a sweat lodge, I hear its alot better than a turkish bath.

[wedeliver]

..... I do however want to meet a first nation "medicine man" one day mianly to see natural herbal medicine in action. I would also like to try a sweat lodge, I hear its alot better than a turkish bath.

You might try the Peyote Way Church of God.

http://www.peyoteway.org/

[Badger]

So, Badger.
Who's your favorite artist?

Probably Joan Miró.

[dana]

I have never had the displeasure of meeting any of the "phoney" shaman/guru type people face to face. I did however have the pleasure of seeing a travelling "christian" faith healer type. This was actually quite entertaining. I was a little sorry to see that some folks actually believed the tripe that was fed to them. I do however want to meet a first nation "medicine man" one day mianly to see natural herbal medicine in action. I would also like to try a sweat lodge, I hear its alot better than a turkish bath.

Yep. It's the circus effect that puts so many people off. We tend to get so cynical that it's easy to assume there must be nothing of value in the whole area of religion and spirituality.
A guy that I used to mountain bike with occaisionally (friend of a friend) became a guru for a while. Very strange. For shits and grins I went to one of their meetings. "come up to our level." Disgusting regurgitation of Eastern thought - becoming "desireless".

I had a similar experience once with finding a Pentecostal preacher camping at one of my favorite secret spots in No. California. Now that was strange!! I love talking to people to find out how they think. Learned about pentecostals though. Suddenly understood what all the rigamarole with handling snakes and talking in tongues is all about. They seek "proof". However they forget to employ useful skepticism. The difference between skepticism and cynicism, is that the cynic refuses to apply skepticism to his own act of skepticism. (It becomes just another mind trap, a place of safety.)

Tool - I've been to quite a few sweat lodges run by traditional "medicine men". You might find them worthwile. They're done as a complete ritual, and if you have someone to explain why the ritual is done that particular way, it's really pretty interesting.

Oh... in reference to the original poster, there are lots of people that are quite involved in serious study of psychodelics. Another friend (burner actually) told me about going to an international symposium in Europe with various researchers as speakers.

[Isotopia]

The difference between skepticism and cynicism, is that the cynic refuses to apply skepticism to his own act of skepticism. (It becomes just another mind trap, a place of safety.)

That's a bit of a bumper sticker summation I think. A pigeonhole if you will.

I prefer to see a cynic in the above sense as a someone who shows a disposition towards strong disbelief in simplistic, oft-repeated expressions of sincerity, humility and yes, 'enlightenment' when actions often suggests the contrary. Examples of which can be found in damn near all arenas of religion and spirituality.

[dana]

The difference between skepticism and cynicism, is that the cynic refuses to apply skepticism to his own act of skepticism. (It becomes just another mind trap, a place of safety.)

That's a bit of a bumper sticker summation I think. A pigeonhole if you will.

I prefer to see a cynic in the above sense as a someone who shows a disposition towards strong disbelief in simplistic, oft-repeated expressions of sincerity, humility and yes, 'enlightenment' when actions often suggests the contrary. Examples of which can be found in damn near all arenas of religion and spirituality.

Not trying to justify your own cynicism?

It may seem "bumper sticker" simple, but sometimes simplifications to the basic mechanics of it can be helpful. If you knew me, you'd find that I'm very big on skepticism - the act of carefully tearing apart your perception of reality and belief structures. Then hopefully you can reassess your own little personal cosmology, test where it may be weak, retweak the whole mess if necessary and move on to the next thing. I find most cynics are not really interested in doing any of that. (There's comfort in the status quo, the un-rocked boat.)

But there's another aspect to your comments. It comes up often enough. It's that bit about "actions" suggesting something to the contrary. (I actually tend to agree, if I get your meaning.) The so-called spiritual person who is basically a flaming asshole. On the other hand, just because I might be doing something that is a "spiritual path", would you honestly expect me to suddenly be perfect? Can't I be trying to figure it all out and still fuck up from time to time?

[Badger]

Then hopefully you can reassess your own little personal cosmology, test where it may be weak, retweak the whole mess if necessary and move on to the next thing. I find most cynics are not really interested in doing any of that. (There's comfort in the status quo, the un-rocked boat.)

Spoken like a true 'Shaman(TM) there Dana.'

You don't know jack-shit about my (or Isotopia's) 'little personal cosmology' you presumptuous fuck.

[dana]

Then hopefully you can reassess your own little personal cosmology, test where it may be weak, retweak the whole mess if necessary and move on to the next thing. I find most cynics are not really interested in doing any of that. (There's comfort in the status quo, the un-rocked boat.)

Spoken like a true 'Shaman(TM) there Dana.'

You don't know jack-shit about my (or Isotopia's) 'little personal cosmology' you presumptuous fuck.

Presumptuous fuck? (funny comment, coming from you.)

and who's making the presumptions? You didn't think I'm particularly interested in anything you have to say or think, much less what your "personal cosmology" might be?

[Isotopia]

You didn't think I'm particularly interested in anything you have to say or think, much less what your "personal cosmology" might be?

Read your own prior quote you certainly suggest as much.

[dana]

You didn't think I'm particularly interested in anything you have to say or think, much less what your "personal cosmology" might be?

Read your own prior quote you certainly suggest as much.

I take it you two are a couple?

It really doesn't take more than a brief glance at Badger's posts to realize I'm not interested in his thoughts. My reply was meant to be ironic. Maybe you missed the fact that my post wasn't directed at Badger, but he seemed to presume that it was?

[MikeVDS]

Read your own prior quote you certainly suggest as much.

It looked to me as if Dana was talking in general. One unfortunate thing about the English language is that there is no good general form to talk about people in general, so we're stuck by saying "You can ride your bike", for example, even if not addressed specifically at only you. You could change it to "One can ride one's bike", but that is not typical in our language. Dana seemed to be talking about cynicism in general, and not trying to judge your little world, which you seem to be overly defensive about.

Cynic is just a word. It has different connotations and denotations.

[dana]

Cynic is just a word. It has different connotations and denotations.

I really do like that simple idea about the difference between cynicism and skepticism. Think about it. Look at all of the things in our world that we tend to feel cynical about - politics, the human condition, spirituality, relationships. Cynicism tends to be this kind of "hip" stance we take to the world, but what does it really get us?

With skepticism, your approach to all of those things can be a lot more dynamic. You can look at your prejudices, limitations, etc and take a different stance if you like. But with cynicism you're essentially saying "OK, this is the way things are and I don't really want to consider that I may be wrong."
I tend to be cynical about Badger.

[theCryptofishist]

I respect Badger's BS detecter.

I'm not as down on shamans as he is (I think), in that I tend to believe that they are valid in the original cultural contexts. I am deeply suspicious of the cultural appropriation of shamanism by modern new age types. And a lot of shamanism is simply physiology of the brain and what happens when you chant or beat a drum or fast or dance. We do have most of these things in European culture (I'm white american, and while I don't think that this board is exculsively such, I'm guessing it's the general slant) although greatly supressed over the past few hundred years. Is "shaman" for the 00s simply what "zen" was for the 60s and 70s? We could probably learn a lot about mind states from "real shamans" but I think most of the people who are claiming to be shamans are prostituting their own, or someone else's, culture to a very rich audience.

[dana]

I respect Badger's BS detecter.

I'm not as down on shamans as he is (I think), in that I tend to believe that they are valid in the original cultural contexts. I am deeply suspicious of the cultural appropriation of shamanism by modern new age types. And a lot of shamanism is simply physiology of the brain and what happens when you chant or beat a drum or fast or dance. We do have most of these things in European culture (I'm white american, and while I don't think that this board is exculsively such, I'm guessing it's the general slant) although greatly supressed over the past few hundred years. Is "shaman" for the 00s simply what "zen" was for the 60s and 70s? We could probably learn a lot about mind states from "real shamans" but I think most of the people who are claiming to be shamans are prostituting their own, or someone else's, culture to a very rich audience.

Well yeah. That's pretty much my point about the circus it can become. But I would say don't let someone else's wierd little scene stop you if you're inclined to dig deeper beyond the point of any other person's idea of where valid reality stops.

And yeah, I tend to also be leery of someone who claims to be a "shaman". I come from Boulder for chrissake!! But appropriation? Aren't we Americans all a bunch of mutts that have appropriated different parts of our culture from a whole lot of other cultures?

In reference to your comment about what's going on with the brain of the shaman, I once read a pretty cool article written by Joseph Campbell where he was making a comparison between the schizophrenic and the shaman. Obviously he's not a nuerologist, but I thought he made some interesting points about thier similarity, but that the shaman is able to exert more control. There's been a lot of nuero research into all of that stuff. One of the big focuses these days is on the temporal lobe, and how it sets the parameters of how you experience reality.

[MikeVDS]

Aren't we Americans all a bunch of mutts that have appropriated different parts of our culture from a whole lot of other cultures?

ALL cultures are mutts made up of parts of cultures that existed before theirs. America has it's own distinct culture and because of it's nature and youth, has been evolving and incorporating other cultures very rapidly.

[theCryptofishist]

I've read something recent speculating on schizophrenia not being out-selected because the schizoid personality makes for good shamans. The anology being Sickle Cell Anemia--one dose of the gene is such a survival advantage in malarial areas that it offsets the lethality of the double gene.

True, we are mutts and we are growing. But most of the "shamanic" crap is crap, very shallow cultural appropriation. There may be americans apprenticed to shamans who are learning it in a deep way and they may in the long term impart it to more of our culture in a positive way. Those are flying beneath the radar, not in our faces.