burningman trademark question

everyman · Post by **everyman** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 11:02 pm

Hello ePlaya

A group of my friends from Ohio are looking to start a fundraising website in effort to help get us to burningman. We unfortunately cannot afford to get there with our own salaries, and have been asking for donations.

We have been putting on fund raisers locally, and considered promoting them via a website to reach more people and offer more information. We could explain in detail what we intend to do, what the costs are, and how much specifically we are looking to raise. We could explain dollar for dollar what we're going to spend, why we're spending it, and post pictures and videos of our preparations.

One idea was to register a domain name that uses "burningman" in the title, such us "bringmetoburningman.com"

Would this violate the burningman trademark?

We would like a clear answer on this before proceeding.

Any info or guidance with this issue would be most helpful. We wish not to split hairs with the "playa powers" or create any controversy.

To do what we wish to do would require cross-country travel with 3 minivans, which we'd probably rent, and that takes a pretty big hit to the wallet from the gas consumption. We are looking to build domes, host events, and put on some reasonably impressive performances using renewable energy. To do THAT costs a considerable amount of money.

Other suggestions on fund raising are welcome. And of course, most importantly, please inform as to the legality of using the burningman name in a domain name registration!

everyman

MikeVDS · Post by **MikeVDS** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 6:30 am

Lots of cases like this have been fought before. Ihatewalmart.com, microsucks.com and other similar ones. From the cases I've heard, yours would be completely legal. The times when you're getting into a grey area is if your name can be confused with the trademark owner AND you are intentionally confusing that market. If you got birningman.com or burningmen.com and were holding some festival, then you'd be subject to trademark violation laws, but you can say, burningmansucks.com or other similar ones and if they don't like it, they have to buy it from you at your asking price. There was a case of a guy named somethink like Mike Row (I could be wrong about the spelling but you'll get the idea) started a page called MikeRowSoft.com. Microsoft sued and Mike Row won the initial case.

I'm not a lawyer, I just read http://slashdot.org a lot, so that's where this is coming from, so keep in mind this is just my take on reading a lot of random articles on the subject, and not pure fact.

Badger · Post by **Badger** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 7:53 am

Would this violate the burningman trademark?

95% certain it would.

For clarification you might send email to Andi Grace at [email protected] If she doesn't have the answer she'll know of someone who does.

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 10:29 am

As the official Keeper of the Spirit, I officially sanction all free rides to the event.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 11:35 am

Bless me, Father, for I have sinned against the trademark. It has been 784123 days since my last confession. May I kiss the papel ring?

MikeVDS · Post by **MikeVDS** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 4:09 pm

95% certain it would.

That's based upon what knowledge?

Badger · Post by **Badger** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 3:54 pm

That's based upon what knowledge?

Based on my experience of having worked for the org now for some eight plus years for starters. Also based on multiple discussions with members of the LLC re. trademark and trademark infringement issues as they apply to people appropriating and using BM logos for financial purposes - especially while at the event. Based on my discussions with members of the BM Senior Staff and LLC in hammering out and contributing to written policy for one of the larger volunteer groups within Burning Man some of it as it relates to the issue of trademark concerns and violations. Still, nothing is for sure but I think I have some grounds for laying out a somewhat informed, educated guess. Though keep in mind that I do not speak for or represent the BM organization and remember that my guess is as good as the next person's

Any other questions Mike?

MikeVDS · Post by **MikeVDS** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 4:14 pm

trademark and trademark infringement issues as they apply to people appropriating and using BM logos for financial purposes

But is the domain registration a trademark violation? I don't think they could do a thing based on other domain name cases I've read articles on. The original suggestion should not be a trademark violation in U.S. courts regardless of what the org likes or doesn't. If they used trademarked or copyrighted images, that's a different case. Content of the page could be in violation. but I don't think the domain name would be.

In Bally a California court held that defendant Faber, who had created a website named Bally Sucks, which he created "in a simmering rage after a Bally club in California didn't upgrade his membership as promised," violated neither federal trademark infringement nor trademark dilution statutes because the site was merely a parody designed to voice consumer complaints and not commercially competitive with Bally in any way. The site was so clearly anti-Bally that it could not be construed as the company's handiwork. In Bally, the court noted that Faber "does not use Bally in his domain name" and that "even if Faber did use the mark as part of a larger domain name, such as 'ballysucks.com', this would not necessarily be a violation as a matter of law" because "no reasonably prudent Internet user would believe that 'Ballysucks.com' is the official Bally site or is sponsored by Bally. Finally, the court also cited congressional intent to exempt parody and other non-commercial imitation from the Act.

http://www.thelenreid.com/articles/arti ... %20idx.htm

Here are a few other similar cases:
http://dmoz.org/Computers/Internet/Doma ... sucks.com/

Based on this information any many other articles I've read, the domain name will be just fine.

Edit: Not sure why the URLs aren't clicky. By the quotes you can see BBcode is enabled.

spectabillis · Post by **spectabillis** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 5:01 pm

yes you need permission before you can use it.

the current fee is $75 for a general (unlimited use) license, or $5 for each commercial item. paypal my account now please, no refunds.

robotland · Post by **robotland** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 10:44 pm

If the link to your site is in the right places, WHO CARES what it's called? Are you expecting much money from The Midnight Googler?

Sounds like quite a mob that you're planning to transport a lotta miles in rented vehicles. Do Not Forget that you will be (from Ohio) probably filling the tanks on those minivans about sixteen times EACH. Perhaps you should invest a buck seventy-five for a copy of "RV Trader".

Badger · Post by **Badger** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:25 am

But is the domain registration a trademark violation? I don't think they could do a thing based on other domain name cases I've read articles on. The original suggestion should not be a trademark violation in U.S. courts regardless of what the org likes or doesn't. If they used trademarked or copyrighted images, that's a different case. Content of the page could be in violation. but I don't think the domain name would be.

I think you might have answered your own question with your previous cite. One instance that comes to mind is the infamous restaurant that opened over in the Donner Pass area of California. For those unfamiliar with it Donner's Pass is where a group of settlers trying to reach Oregon got stuck in the mountains for the winter and resorted to eating each other before the spring thaw. One entrepreneur opened a burger joint and named it "McDonner's" and was sued - successfully - by McDonald's based on the association with the restaurant. Not being a lawyer I admit to not knowing the specifics or the intricacies of copyright and trademark law but it has always been my impression that ANYTIME you incorporate the name of an registered company, product, business, service, etc. into a newer, unregistered item or business entity you run afoul of trademark and copyright infringement.

But I could be wrong.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 11:57 am

Anything related to Mcdonalds, I would check firsthand.
They routinely misrepresent lawsuits they have engaged in.
Remember they are the geniuses who sued activists and ended up with a court ruling that their food was unhealthy.
Oh, and $1.

In one of the infamous 'frivolous' coffee lawsuits,
they had their ass handed to them for fraud, not for hot coffee.
They are the posterboy for frivolous legal action themselves.

I think what they want to do here is legal,
but the relevant question might be whether the llc finds what they want to do offensive, or a future problem perhaps.
That's what I would ask.

MikeVDS · Post by **MikeVDS** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 12:04 pm

But I could be wrong.

Based on references that I posted that actually apply to the question against your summarized case that has nothing to do with the question you seem to be wrong.

This is about DOMAIN REGISTRATION, not about naming a company something similar that could confuse consumers of those products. Case law seems to point toward things such as bringmetoburningman.com or Ihateburningman.com, orburningmanateyourmother.com to be completely fine.

Some sites with burningman in their domain name (not sure if any got permission but they don't seem to need it anyway):

http://www.thisisburningman.com/
http://www.burningmanopera.org/
http://burningmansucks.com/

Others with burninman is their sub domains

http://burning-man.group.stumbleupon.com/
http://burningman.meetup.com/events/upcoming/rss/
http://burningman.deviantart.com/store

Badger · Post by **Badger** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 2:15 pm

Points made well Mike.

But... does the law come into play when the site in question exists in order to make or raise money or donations. I ask because each of the sites you show seems to have nothing to do with $$$. I think the commerce card could be played in much the same way as if say http://www.stopburningman.org/ (one you missed) stopped being about misrepresenting the evil event and instead chose to use their site to raise money or turn a profit.

Apollonaris Zeus · Post by **Apollonaris Zeus** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 9:40 pm

Badger wrote:
That's based upon what knowledge?
Based on my experience of having worked for the org now for some eight plus years for starters. Also based on multiple discussions with members of the LLC re. trademark and trademark infringement issues as they apply to people appropriating and using BM logos for financial purposes - especially while at the event. Based on my discussions with members of the BM Senior Staff and LLC in hammering out and contributing to written policy for one of the larger volunteer groups within Burning Man some of it as it relates to the issue of trademark concerns and violations. Still, nothing is for sure but I think I have some grounds for laying out a somewhat informed, educated guess. Though keep in mind that I do not speak for or represent the BM organization and remember that my guess is as good as the next person's

Any other questions Mike?

Cites? and legal one too!

AIIZ

MikeVDS · Post by **MikeVDS** » Sun Apr 01, 2007 12:40 pm

Cites? and legal one too!

Cites for what? About the legality of making money using a trademarked name in your domain name? I don't know if I've seen cases that specific before. I'll take a look to see if I can find anything either way. I meant to look for something a while ago but I've been doing other junk. I think you'd be fine making money off a site like that. Verizon has been one of the main fighters against trademarked domain names and you still find things like:

http://hateverizon.org/shop.htm

I'm pretty sure freedom of speech has held out pretty well in the domain name area. There is no real reason why people should not be able to state their opinion on something and sell t-shirts that reflect that opinion. It's a bit sad to me that people automatically assume there is something wrong with that.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Sun Apr 01, 2007 1:46 pm

Check disney and elvis.
These companies routinely get away with things that aren't allowed.
And disney has changed law for real in ways that will bite all of us in the ass.
Don't buy disney.
Anything.
EVER.

A lot of cases are financial bullying and not real law though.

For a huge laugh, check out the mcdonalds lawsuit in uk against activists.

bronco2121 · Post by **bronco2121** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 4:26 pm

no one knows for sure who owns the BM trademark ( http://johnlawspeaks.wordpress.com/ ). LLC may not own it. i'd say you could run around the internet selling official burningman dust for ten bucks a pop and no one would do anything more than send you a cease & desist... and everyone knows if you're not getting at least one cease & desist per week --- YOU'RE NOT WORKING HARD ENOUGH.

B!

allsux · Post by **allsux** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 2:16 am

Yup, it's all up in the air right now ... legal disputes running hither and thither. In all honesty, my guess is: they have better things to do than bust a single Burner who is well-meaning: so long as you have a clear disclaimer on your site that you aren't officially affiliated with or making money for Burning Man ;)

BigCock · Post by **BigCock** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:30 pm

John Law's views on this issue are hardly objective.

I work with attorneys on IP stuff all the time. BMorg would have to prove that its business was damaged by the infringement, and that the perp intended to damage BMorg's business. Proving intent ain't easy. In cases of corporations vs individuals, consideration is often given to the individual's right to make a living. So I agree with allsux, you're pretty safe.

bronco2121 · Post by **bronco2121** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 5:15 pm

forget disclaimers - i'm selling official burningman (TM) related items of my website right now. come and get it!!! it's official and it's 100% legal.

im thinking of launching an ICANN dispute against the domain-name squatters who own burningman.com because i can prove i thought of it first.

anyone want to buy some official burningman playa dust? going fast.

B!

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 8:56 pm

http://www.playazon.com/swag/00.html

Green Wood · Post by **Green Wood** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 9:26 pm

bronco2121 wrote:no one knows for sure who owns the BM trademark ( http://johnlawspeaks.wordpress.com/ ). LLC may not own it. i'd say you could run around the internet selling official burningman dust for ten bucks a pop and no one would do anything more than send you a cease & desist... and everyone knows if you're not getting at least one cease & desist per week --- YOU'RE NOT WORKING HARD ENOUGH.

B!

until you sell enough of it to make it worth going after you and alot of people are suck into that senario all the time.

just give them enough rope to hand themselves on

mojo · Post by **mojo** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 11:42 am

At the risk of sounding really snarky, as far as having a cover charge at a great party to raise funds for infrastructure and art of a big camp - I get that. But using the Burning Man name to solicit funds on the internet so you can rent mini vans and put up a couple of domes?

Here's how the rest of us do it....

1) Get a job

2) Open a savings account

3) Get good at your job, get a raise, save money.

Keep in mind that art is so subjective that I guess you can justify "patronage" for whatever you are trying to do - but why use the Burning man name? If it is your artistic contribution that needs to be funded specifically for this festival, try the BRAF.

bronco2121 · Post by **bronco2121** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 2:36 pm

i'm a multi-millionaire. it's not about the money - it's about selling the stuuuufff. i want to sell enough official burningman stuff (calendars for just $5 - DVDs for $3) that the LLC will be forced to file suit. then we'll have a trial that i'll win. then people will be able to produce 'girls-gone-wild' burningman style (and the like) for just $19.99 or even for just $9.99 (postage not included).

what will have changed? the playa is still there. sales is sales. it's the american way.

B!

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 3:53 pm

mojo wrote:At the risk of sounding really snarky, as far as having a cover charge at a great party to raise funds for infrastructure and art of a big camp - I get that. But using the Burning Man name to solicit funds on the internet so you can rent mini vans and put up a couple of domes?

Here's how the rest of us do it....

1) Get a job

2) Open a savings account

3) Get good at your job, get a raise, save money.

Keep in mind that art is so subjective that I guess you can justify "patronage" for whatever you are trying to do - but why use the Burning man name? If it is your artistic contribution that needs to be funded specifically for this festival, try the BRAF.

Actually that just sounds mean.
In case you haven't noticed there are a lot of jobs that don't pay enough for survival.
I guess those people aren't entitled to try to contribute to burning man?
We just got some living wage proposals passed locally.
A few weeks ago I had someone come to my door begging for food.
They live in a shed with a wife and baby behind someone's house.
And they have a job.
I doubt they will make it to burning man though.

If you live as far away as I do, it costs more just to attend that it does to do a small theme camp from california.
A lot of people forget that.
I am told more people attend from other countries than from the east side of the usa.
That is a huge loss of creativity.

I managed to think of a project that doesn't require massive transportation costs.
Most things I want to do just aren't practical from here.
I still have to raise some funds.
Anyone from cali coming 2000 miles for my fund raisers?

I pass up a lot of things every year to attend and I missed a lot of years I couldn't go.
I just skipped blue man group and I wanted to see them for a long time.

If you have a job that recognizes skill and intelligence and even work, you are extremely lucky to be there.

Someone suggested last year I shouldn't attend burning man if I don't have enough disposable income.
Is burning man just for the rich?

MikeVDS · Post by **MikeVDS** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 4:42 pm

Actually that just sounds mean.

I agree. I'm not sure setting up a website alone will get him donations, but perhaps if he's bringing a service wanted at the playa that he showcases on his page, he might get some hits. No need to be mean when you don't even know the whole idea though. I think "get a job" converted to, "rethink your financial situation" might be sound advice though if he's just asking for donations. I don't know why anyone would donate on some website to someone they've never met who's only stated purpose is to go to some festival. So keep that in mind when building your site, and good luck.

BAS · Post by **BAS** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 7:29 pm

gyre-- sounds like you live the same distance from Black Rock that I live! (I'm in Wisconsin.) It also sounds like you are in about the same financial situation that I am normally in (earning enough to survive, but no where near enough to prosper.

)

The "Get a job, get a raise" answer is too simplistic. These are not good times for the working class. Benefits of all types (including essentials like vacations and "luxuries" like health insurance) are being scaled back, and wealth is stagnating at the top. One of the reasons Burning Man is as large as it is is due to its location: near California, the most populated state. If it were held further away (for example, Alaska, or in North Dakota), not as many people would attend due to the time and money requirements. I had to wait a few years due to being in a job with low pay and poor advancement prospects. Last year I was able to attend due to a better job and getting extremely lucky with the vacation schedule. This year there is a good possibility I won't be able to attend-- both finances and vacation scheduling look to be bad.

If current trends continue, Burning Man really will be for just the wealthy.

B.

BigCock · Post by **BigCock** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 8:26 pm

I'm trying to imagine someone too poor to eat setting up a BM begsite for party money. Are genuinely starving people really a consideration here? That said, BM is creative sustenance for a hungry spirit.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 1:32 am

People that poor never do anything for entertainment.
TV would pretty much be it.
I take them bread from a community association in another neighborhood some times.
They have never heard of burning man.
They are lucky to have a shed behind a relative's house now.
He used to have a nice car and when it broke down, he couldn't afford to fix it.
That pretty much eliminated his job choices here.
Without decent mass transit, every job asks if you have a car.
And jobs are hard to find here.
The republican job program here was to throw 70% of the people on food stamps off without jobs at one time.
So they were all competing with each other for the few jobs available.
I don't think my neighbor was part of that, but he is having a hard time now.
He had been pretty creative.
He used to have an apartment he built in a bay where there was a carpentry shop.
Big companies are bailing out of this city pretty rapidly.
Meanwhile the government builds sports stadiums with stolen money and takes what they can.
Instead of enough police, we get faked crime stats.
A lot of corruption trials going on now.
We even have a website selling 'corruption in memphis' items.

My situation is a little unusual.
I had a business seized by the city, looted you might say.
Lawsuit pending and no legal fund.
I am trying to interest the Institute for Justice or anyone else, but they are dealing with a different type of property rights case right now.
I am actually not making any money at all right now because I am trying to pack and move.
I should be done by now, but I've been held up by a dispute with the people who are supposed to be buying my property.
They thought they could avoid paying me and the city would help them get away with it.

I am open to moving anywhere but here, but planning on sf unless I get a job I'm interested in, in new england.
I won't go into the long and gory details.
Burning man has pretty much kept me sane during some traumatic and stressful years.
The legal fights kept me from attending during the worst of it.
It would have sure helped.
I didn't even think of trying to go in 2005 until august.
I had been buying tickets for years and making plans that didn't happen.
I just managed to make it.
I was pretty shellshocked already when I arrived and it did wonders for me.
Looking back, it seems like I was barely there, but it was the first chance I had to forget about what had been going on for a very long time.
There is much more, but I'll just say it was so worth it.
I first wanted to go for excitement.
Now I go to relax.
I look forward to going for excitement.
I was all there this year.
I was there for two weeks and it wasn't nearly long enough.
And I came back in a much better frame of mind.

I was just trying to make the point that many people have huge expenses even before they try to do anything creative out there.
And many people don't have huge incomes.
My own project will, I hope, entertain and provoke thought in a lot of people.
But it will be very small without other people participating in it, especially with the unplanned delay in my plans.
But I'm still trying.
I had to think for a very long time to come up with something that was possible with the great distances.
I am trying to work with some folks in reno and a lot of other places.
Those of you closer should appreciate the advantages of being closer.
I would love to be involved with a big art car.
That would require cubic money from here.
When I get to sf again I will definitely be helping the Hot Wheelz project in oakland and the Lotus Girls latest flammable mischief.
Next time you hold a fundraiser in cali, think about how big it would be if you only had guests from other states.

By the way, Hot Wheelz is fixing up wheelchairs and scooters for those who can't bring something themselves to the playa.
They have been doing tremendous work out there and can use all the help they can get.
If anyone would like to help tart up or transform chairs, you can have a huge impact on someone's experience with a bit of work before the burn.
It's an opportunity to have a bigger effect than you might have when you attend.
So if you are in the bay area, it's an opportunity.
It is very intimidating to even think of burning when you have trouble getting around.

burningman trademark question

burningman trademark question

wut

I think you're pretty safe

it's a free for all!

Re: wut

ya