Green Thoughts

helitack · Post by **helitack** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 6:04 pm

Comments?
http://www.burningman.com/environment/n ... on_07.html

LeChatNoir · Post by **LeChatNoir** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 6:21 pm

As long as its showcasing ideas and not hawking products, I'm alright with it. Seems a fine and shakey line to walk, but I'm willing to give it a try at least. I trust the guys bringing it together, but I'll know more when I see it in person.

I think Burning Man draws a lot of brilliant minds and it makes sense to talk about technology and our impact on the planet there... and then go out and burn something.

I'm working with a non-profit group that is harnessing methaneto run a glass/clay/metal studio that will benefit established and beginning artists and the community alike. Some of the groups members will be coming to The Burn for the first time this year. Just worked out that way, wasn't planned around the theme.

What are your thoughts that green man link, heli?

LeChatNoir · Post by **LeChatNoir** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 6:22 pm

OOP!!

Looks like the link that I posted is down right now. Try it again later, I suppose. Sorry...

helitack · Post by **helitack** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 6:32 pm

I am trying to understand how that fine line between advertising/commercialism and the gift economy is approached...

Zulegoona · Post by **Zulegoona** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 6:44 pm

Iâ€™m skeptical of the whole green theme, it is so reminiscing of having a father to be boil water not because you need boiled water but because it makes him feel like heâ€™s doing something,... or the kids collecting gum wrappers to be melted down to build bombers in world war two,.. letâ€™s all act empowered weâ€™ll all feel better OK,.. see, we through our own personal efforts are Doing something, that will,... will,... well it has to do some good right?

OK so now burning man is being changed into the worlds fair of alternative energy , or at least that seems to be the hope,... See we arenâ€™t just about something frivolous like art or community we are marshaling these creative forces to do,....something, that,...that,... well it has to do some good right?

But the music will play all night long people will, do what they have always done and Burning Man will continue on, no mater what, those well intentioned people do to try to make it,... something else, you know better.

LeChatNoir · Post by **LeChatNoir** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 7:30 pm

helitack wrote:I am trying to understand how that fine line between advertising/commercialism and the gift economy is approached...

Me too. I go back and forth on it and I'm not sure where I'll come to rest, if I do at all. But I do try to take responibility for my own actions at least. Our camp is going to offset the CO2 from the trip to BRC this year. I'm checking into options for that tonight, actually.

I'm also doing an art piece for this year that uses propane. I don't believe that fire art and responible approaches to the environment have to be seperate. I just hope that the guys I trust are dong better than me at defineing that fine line. I think corporate hawking on the playa is sort of one of those "I know it when I see it" things for me still.

LeChatNoir · Post by **LeChatNoir** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 7:36 pm

Zulegoona wrote:Iâ€™m skeptical of the whole green theme, it is so reminiscing of having a father to be boil water not because you need boiled water but because it makes him feel like heâ€™s doing something,... or the kids collecting gum wrappers to be melted down to build bombers in world war two,.. letâ€™s all act empowered weâ€™ll all feel better OK,.. see, we through our own personal efforts are Doing something, that will,... will,... well it has to do some good right?

OK so now burning man is being changed into the worlds fair of alternative energy , or at least that seems to be the hope,... See we arenâ€™t just about something frivolous like art or community we are marshaling these creative forces to do,....something, that,...that,... well it has to do some good right?

But the music will play all night long people will, do what they have always done and Burning Man will continue on, no mater what, those well intentioned people do to try to make it,... something else, you know better.

I understand what you're saying Z... but I have to think of the little more than 100 or so volunteers that made such a huge difference to many in the Gulf region after Katrina. Sometimes a little goes a long way. And at the risk of sounding like a cheerleader, I'd say this is a worthy cause also. I'm just worried about how it will be handled when it comes down to discerning between "talking tech" and handing out company ad flyers.

And as long as the lights and noise are going on at night, I probably be around the city somewhere.

helitack · Post by **helitack** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 7:50 pm

...maybe it's all about the org feeling better about themselves...

...when it is economically viable for the majority of people to change their behavior, then they will. The people I work with/for should be on the forefront of green or alternative energy but since it is expensive in the initial outlay, little is done. No one has to visit the Green Pavillion if they don't want to. Unless it's a gauntlet you have to run to get to the cafe or the ice. I do however have these visions of the "publicity" these vendors/inventors recieve from the event as being a good thing in the long run, but I don't see any way for these folks and the attendees to benefit without the "branding" that is not supposed to happen. A serious conundrum...

BigCock · Post by **BigCock** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 7:54 pm

My first thought was: why, I could enter the product I work on into the fair. A 98% efficient pump for desalination? Affordable fresh water for the masses in the age of global warming? It's perfect! Maybe I could write off my ticket and my whole trip as a company expense.

My second thought was: No Way, Damnit! The green man pavilion is yet another place to avoid on the playa, along with the cafe and the ice store, in my one week without commerce.

In my not so humble opinion, burning man themes are a bit of a side show (with the notable exception of the floating world theme in 2002 which was fucking awesome (but I credit all the folks working the Lake Lahontan theme for years before 2002 for the real drive behind the water theme)). The real event is not what Larry says it is, but what everyone but Larry does of their own volition.

MikeVDS · Post by **MikeVDS** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 8:03 pm

People will do what they want, when they want as always. The only thing this theme does is inspire a few people and separate the environmental nuts from the consumer whores on these electronic bulletin boards. Also it will make for some great heckling and jackassery when we see the consumer whores pretending to be environmental nuts.

Apollonaris Zeus · Post by **Apollonaris Zeus** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 8:28 pm

Oh damn, it's going to gerlack that means we won't get to burn it!!!!!!

If someone can invent renewable wood to burn?

Oh yeah, I forgot theyre called, "Trees"!

Shit I should have thought of that

AIIZ

LeChatNoir · Post by **LeChatNoir** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 8:46 pm

Yeah...

Definitely a conundrum. And I think that any heckling would be a fair counterpoint to it. Yet one more of the sideshows of The Thing In The Desert.

And I had to just quit paying attention to all the "greenier than thou" stuff going on everywhere and focus on my own things.

Post by **mdmf007** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:06 pm

Didint realize how big Lahnotan Lake would have been. that has to be more than 300 miles north to south (used goole earth to estimate start stop points)

later

LeChatNoir · Post by **LeChatNoir** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 11:20 pm

Here's some more relevent reading:

http://www.burningman.com/environment/p ... ssage.html

ETA this quote from the above linked page:

Rest assured: there won't be any branding at the pavilion. There won't be advertising or corporate shills trying to sell snake oil. There won't be any hand-out flyers or promotion of products. What there will be is a sharing of ideas, a place where you can come and learn in a real, hands-on way about new ideas in generating green power, in solving the problems of solid waste, and taking responsible care of toxics.

Teo del Fuego · Post by **Teo del Fuego** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:07 am

Zulegoona wrote:Iâ€™m skeptical of the whole green theme

yeah, me too. See my prior post called Cooling v. Burning. Hopefully the theme for 2008 will be a little less politically correct or else Burning Man will morph into a desert-based Epcot.

Zulegoona wrote: it is so reminiscing of having a father to be boil water not because you need boiled water but because it makes him feel like heâ€™s doing something

you're also skeptical of punctuation. Try: "It is so reminiscent of having a father-to-be boil water, not because you need boiled water, but, because it makes him feel like he's doing something." Sorry, former English major.

Apollonaris Zeus · Post by **Apollonaris Zeus** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 11:03 am

mdmf007 wrote:Didint realize how big Lahnotan Lake would have been. that has to be more than 300 miles north to south (used goole earth to estimate start stop points)

later

Yes and imagine the reaction of the aqualife forms when they too realized that global warming existed and everyday their world was little bit smaller and smaller.

Now we can see the results of their inaction!

We must act now and do our part even if its more show then reality.

My true thoughts, yes it is good that BM wants to promote green. But reuse of waste wood, solar cell energy use and bio fuels was always the mantra for the last several years. But now its needs the Bmorg to take it to the next step. But as a theme, its not one of the best ideas, But now the Bmorg with the reality of the event as it is, one can only go so far as an organization. What center camp and many of the outposts could use are wind turbines. Solar cells are less inefficient but can work for low energy vacilitees.

Wind Turbines are the only way to go, but as many of us know the wind dies down usually at the hotest part of the day. Energy storage today is totally ineffeicent and the gas generators would have to be turned on. High energy uses- ice may always be on generators.

Anyone ever images the waste of dead batteries this event produces?

Maybe we can get the nuke industry to come in and demo. If we're lucky, a real meltdown on saturday or sunday would provide and 40,000 ft shrooom cloud. Man, that's getting your tickets worth!

AIIZ

BigCock · Post by **BigCock** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 11:47 am

It appears that all mention of the green pavillion have been removed from the BM website. I call that a good thing.

Badger · Post by **Badger** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 12:32 pm

Didint realize how big Lahnotan Lake would have been. that has to be more than 300 miles north to south...

Another factoid I toss out a lot is to consider that when you're on the playa that at one time the water level (at its highest) would have been ~ 850 feet above where you stand.

Archantael · Post by **Archantael** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 1:22 pm

Badger wrote:
Didint realize how big Lahnotan Lake would have been. that has to be more than 300 miles north to south...
Another factoid I toss out a lot is to consider that when you're on the playa that at one time the water level (at its highest) would have been ~ 850 feet above where you stand.

Cite? I'd like to learn more about the playa, grabens, faults and the other underlying structures you've referenced in previous posts. And I'd be willing to bet I'm not alone which is why I'm asking for some book titles or other reference materials.
Please & Thank You!

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 2:18 pm

One way to get a minds picture.. Would be take a look at the water lap marks on the moutions along the roads..These marks were made by the water laping against the shores..Notice how the lap marks lower and lower as the water receded..The roadways are along the floor of this great past water way..The see the passes we drive through..These passage ways were rout the water found the sea as we know it today..The wounder of the is earth make me feel so tiny..

The waters on the east of this country.. Was once all the way to Iowa..A drove stone was found in south west Wisc. on my grandparents farm..

helitack · Post by **helitack** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 2:27 pm

When I drive along Walker Lake on 95 I can see the old shoreline and it is at least 500 feet or more above the current water level. I believe that Walker Lake and Lahontan were once one body of water.

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 2:55 pm

helitack wrote:When I drive along Walker Lake on 95 I can see the old shoreline and it is at least 500 feet or more above the current water level. I believe that Walker Lake and Lahontan were once one body of water.

\/
A person must realize the playa lake was much deeper..The dust we play on each summer is the sediment left as the water receded to Sparks and the Pyramid Lake..Some one on the eplaya has mentioned how deep the te playa is..

Some one told me that Black Rock mountian was floated into the position it's at now..It's one of a kind in the area.. The tops of the hills and Black Rock are around 5000 feet high..Hello Denver..

Don't point and laugh at me..Some of the islands around Tasmamia have moved great distances in my life time..This has been shown with over flight photos..So sence airplnes..

Isotopia · Post by **Isotopia** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 4:31 pm

A person must realize the playa lake was much deeper..The dust we play on each summer is the sediment left as the water receded to Sparks and the Pyramid Lake..Some one on the eplaya has mentioned how deep the te playa is..

Relatively speaking the lake wasn't all that much 'deeper.' Possibly several tens of meters deeper than the current sediment level but that sort of pales in comparison to the fact that there are three areas of the ancient Lahontan lake bed where the sediments are over 7000 meters (7 kilometers) deep. You're correct in that the sediment was deposited primarily by the waters that formed from glacial melt coming off of the eastern side of the Sierra Nevada mountains. The sediment load in the waters settled out of suspension once they passed their ancient spillway near Nixon, NV along Hwy 447.

Some one told me that Black Rock mountian was floated into the position it's at now..It's one of a kind in the area.. The tops of the hills and Black Rock are around 5000 feet high..Hello Denver.

'Floated' isn't exactly the right phrase for it. The actual Black Rock (from which the desert is named) is the remnant of a once large volcanic island arc known as Sonomia. At one time the region near Gerlach represented the western edge of the North American continent. There was no Sierra Nevada and California had yet to even be in existence. The black volcanic andesite which you see to the east of BRC is the root system of this long gone series of islands. A contemporaneous example of Sonomia is the island of Taiwan. Taiwan is gradually riding a plate towards China that is being subducted down into the mantle. At some point in the future most of what is now Taiwan will get subducted down a trench but parts of it will get scraped off in what's known as an accretionary wedge. This wedge of rock will 'dock' up against the asian plate (China) where it will emplace and probably remain for a very long time - just as Sonomia did over in Nevada.

Don't point and laugh at me..Some of the islands around Tasmamia have moved great distances in my life time..This has been shown with over flight photos..So sence airplnes..

Any island in the Tasman sea will have moved no more than a yard in the course of your life. What gives the appearance of island migration has more to do with the changing shoreline as deposits are layed down in one area and removed from another giving the illusion of fast movement.

Apollonaris Zeus · Post by **Apollonaris Zeus** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 6:44 pm

Don't point and laugh at me..Some of the islands around Tasmamia have moved great distances in my life time..This has been shown with over flight photos..So sence airplnes..

Any island in the Tasman sea will have moved no more than a yard in the course of your life. What gives the appearance of island migration has more to do with the changing shoreline as deposits are layed down in one area and removed from another giving the illusion of fast movement.[/quote]

that could be true unless you don't know how old UnionH really is

Oh Iso Could you post the cites for your statement of Sonomia. Not that I refute it but it is very interesting and I would like to learn more about it. Hopefully its posted on the internet for easy reference.

I thought Sonomia is a valley in california where little people made wine

AIIZ

BAS · Post by **BAS** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 6:49 pm

The waters on the east of this country.. Was once all the way to Iowa..A drove stone was found in south west Wisc. on my grandparents farm..

When I was at college in Platteville, I took a walk with some friends of mine and we wound up deep in a farmer's field, near a stream. In a cliff face by the steam where literally thousands of shells of what looked like small fossilized clams. We pried some of them out of the cliff, but I have long since lost the ones I took. We figured at some point those had been the dominant life form in the area.

In Northern Wisconsin and the Upper Peninsula are the remains of the oldest mountain chain in North America, now worn down to the point of very tall, steep hills. I really should get to that part of the state sometime and see them.

B.

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 7:05 pm

BAS, The drove stone was at the head of Dill Creek..In the dell creek water shed..I was there last year..I believe there is a lake under the hills..It bubbles up in springs in the low land..My grand father drove a well in the sand rock hill..He only drove 15 feet to a hollow..The water is about 30 feet below that..It measure out at the same level as a spring just below the drive way..

You do not want to be going north in Wisc. now.. My friends in Hayward have had 39 inches of snow from March 1st.. The temp as stay at or below frezzing..

BAS · Post by **BAS** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 7:53 pm

unjonharley wrote:BAS, The drove stone was at the head of Dill Creek..In the dell creek water shed..I was there last year..I believe there is a lake under the hills..It bubbles up in springs in the low land..My grand father drove a well in the sand rock hill..He only drove 15 feet to a hollow..The water is about 30 feet below that..It measure out at the same level as a spring just below the drive way..

You do not want to be going north in Wisc. now.. My friends in Hayward have had 39 inches of snow from March 1st.. The temp as stay at or below frezzing..

My dad goes up to Hayward in the winter to go cross country skiing. If I go up there, I plan on going during the summer.

I'm not certain where Dill Creek is. What county is it in? (Or where in relation to Platteville?) There are thousands of creeks in Wisconsin!

B.

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 8:47 pm

BAS wrote: I'm not certain where Dill Creek is. What county is it in? (Or where in relation to Platteville?) There are thousands of creeks in Wisconsin!

\/
Sorry should have said..It's north east Sauk county..The creek is on the north boader west of Wisc. DEll where hwy HH is.. Hwy H runs out of Reedbrug to HH to Lyndon Station

Archantael · Post by **Archantael** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 9:28 pm

Apollonaris Zeus wrote:
Oh Iso Could you post the cites for your statement of Sonomia. Not that I refute it but it is very interesting and I would like to learn more about it. Hopefully its posted on the internet for easy reference.

I thought Sonomia is a valley in california where little people made wine

AIIZ

Sonomia is unproven scientific mumbo jumbo that is loosely based around theories on plate tectonics with no hard core, scientifically valid proof to back it up. Or in other words it's a myth and it's why I asked for a cite and instead got to read a bunch of crap.

Someone needs to go back to playing with linear accelerators and the science they know vs trying to offer "opinions masquerading as fact" on geology.

By the way I'd be firing off this post regardless of who put it out here, the fact that it's Badger makes no fucking difference. Bad science is just bad science and deserves to be called out as such.

helitack · Post by **helitack** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 10:47 pm

If you are saying plate techtonics is not scientifically proven, any basic geology text will do so to most peoples satisfaction. Or if you can read the geomorphology that is easily visible in the Basin and Range. Calling bullshit on that topic is bullshit. Local libraries are a wonderful place to find things.

Now this thread was about the hawking of green things at BM. This thread has drifted even farther than Gondwanaland.