Dramady

[dana]

Suicide: A permanent solution to a temporary problem.

Is that from the 'Devil's Dictionary'?

I love that book!

[theCryptofishist]

And if you had read my post a little more carefully without bringing so many of your own issues into the mix, you would have noticed that I was talking more about suicidal tendencies and not necessarily depression.

Then maybe you should apologize for your lack of clarity, rather than continuing to cast aspersions.

As far as "dare devil thrill seeking" you're showing naivete about different kinds of self-destructive and indirect suicidal behavior. I forget the fancy name - something like "suicide by proxy".

Oh we could just cite 'death by cop' but it's not the whole story. For good or ill, it seems to me, there is a sort of behavior that is ingrained in young men. Maybe it helped them challange alpha males and earn a place in a proto-human primate troop or kill to mammoths for meat but in the past 10.000+ years it has been horribly evident in the young man's willingingness--at time eagerness--to go to war. I cannot believe in some sort of cheesy, all-encompassing 'death instinct,' too damn silly. I can believe that there is some sort of genetic payoff to young men who do commit 'suicidal' deeds (in wartime or whenever), survive, and live to have great success with women as a result of their heroic proess. I tend to treat evolutionary psychology with suspicion, but this one does seem to ring true.

Oh and finally, imbalanced brain chemistry isn't the whole of it, ...And suicide isn't only associated with depression. Feelings of hopelessness, despair, rage (especially the quiet kind), anger, etc. may be more prevalent than frank depression.

Oh, talk therepy was very helpful, believe me, and I don't like the current trend away from it towards biochemistry because the combination therapy is needed in most cases. Heck, hidious as it is, ECT is sometimes needed. In my case, there was plenty of talk therapy but it was the anti-depressants that allowed me to function as a human being. I don't know what you mean by 'frank depression,' but I know it's complecated, with gender differences perhaps bearing into men's further drug use ect, however I still find this idea of simply 'cowardice' to be over simplifiying. It's a lot more complicated than either you or I has had the time to admit in the thread. If we were to really go into it, (and let's not) we'd have to cover the 'suicide fad' post Sorrows of Young Werther and the fact that when a Roman fell on his sword or a samurai commited supuku, it was in a very different miliue, and did not signify cowardice.

[dana]

And if you had read my post a little more carefully without bringing so many of your own issues into the mix, you would have noticed that I was talking more about suicidal tendencies and not necessarily depression.

Then maybe you should apologize for your lack of clarity, rather than continuing to cast aspersions.

As far as "dare devil thrill seeking" you're showing naivete about different kinds of self-destructive and indirect suicidal behavior. I forget the fancy name - something like "suicide by proxy".

Oh we could just cite 'death by cop' but it's not the whole story. For good or ill, it seems to me, there is a sort of behavior that is ingrained in young men. Maybe it helped them challange alpha males and earn a place in a proto-human primate troop or kill to mammoths for meat but in the past 10.000+ years it has been horribly evident in the young man's willingingness--at time eagerness--to go to war. I cannot believe in some sort of cheesy, all-encompassing 'death instinct,' too damn silly. I can believe that there is some sort of genetic payoff to young men who do commit 'suicidal' deeds (in wartime or whenever), survive, and live to have great success with women as a result of their heroic proess. I tend to treat evolutionary psychology with suspicion, but this one does seem to ring true.

Whoa big fella... Easy there.

Apoligize for lack of clarity? Curious idea. You did note that the main gist of the thread is suicide? Depression is not necessarily central to the thread.

As far as self destructive behavior, I heard that some primatologist noted that there was an unusual spike in death rates (of male chimps I think?) in an age corresponding to teenage years. When they looked closer they found that the young chimps did a lot of crazy behavior, like trying to make absurdly long jumps to the next limb, etc. But that's chimps, who are instinctual and don't have the self reflective, self aware ability humans have.
When you wrote "death instinct", were you trying to refer to my comment on a "death wish"? When I made the comment on a death wish, I tried to make it clear that I had considered the idea bullshit until I saw it up close. For me it had everything to do with a fundamental relationship to my life. Courage, ability to take responsibility, getting off wanting to blame, a deep choice to live were certainly parts of it.
For example, why do you think people smoke when they know full well it might likely kill them eventually? Sure there's chemical addiction to nicotine, but have you examined the reasons they give for why they start smoking again after successfully stopping?
Since I had to look at this in myself (yet again!!) just recently, it's quite fresh in my mind. I've seen that in those times when I wanted to do something I had a good inkling from the start was going to be self-destructive, I did a particular little dance with myself that gave me the go-ahead for the behavior. For example like deciding that I would have sex with the woman (I pretty much knew would be a disaster) before even starting - I might give myself a rationale why it would actually turn out fine or why I got to bend the rules that time. I could blame that on raging hormones, "chemical imbalance" (my little brain made me do it!!) or I could just see that I had given myself a "cheesy" excuse for self-destructive behavior.




I did not have sex with that woman.

[dana]

Kind of a sad tangent to this thread with the Korean kid that shot up the College. Depression seemed to be very little of it. More powerlessness, playing the victim, and quiet rage - based on his videos and what his roomate said.
I stand by my statement that courage is a major part of it. You don't feel much courage when you see yourself as a victim. People that are suicidal are desperate for resolution.

[BAS]

I haven't looked up his videos-- I can't decide if I want to view them or not.

I agree that a desire for resolution is the major factor in suicide, at least in most cases.


B.