what is forgiveness?

jpx · Post by **jpx** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:17 am

the last thing i want to do is go to burning man with a kink in my neck.

on friday i talked to her but i was more bitter and grey than i want to be. i want to shine, radiate. i want to feel and live and not be stuck hurting from my wretched past.

and i want to at least be able to hug her goodbye when she moves away, and wish her clear horizons, and mean it. and i want that for me as i pull up to BRC.

they say it is in pardoning that we are pardonned. but try as i might i can't snap my fingers and do it. i want to.

do i? why am i stuck. thanks for listening: i know the answer is in me, not in this forum. did i read right that this year it is the temple of forgiveness? it will not be enough to just go and touch it and then burn it and have it all work out. or is that exactly what it is? what is forgiveness?

Cabana Springs · Post by **Cabana Springs** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:27 am

It depends if you are giving it or you think that you deserve it.

If you are giving it then it is quite easy. Just forgive and let it go. That is the only way to forgive. Otherwise it is just you trying to make yourself feel better.

If you think that you deserve it then you are just wrong. Nobody deserves forgiveness. You may get it but you certainly don't deserve it.

Please forgive me if you think I am wrong!

jpx · Post by **jpx** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:55 am

i think it's me i have to forgive, before her.

i am not sure that i deserve it.

i try to scratch my cat behind ears to make up for it, and under her jaws in the way she likes. i guess one little step at a time.

BAS · Post by **BAS** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:00 pm

Work to the point of near exhaustion, then lie down and relax as much as you can somewhere warm, clear your head, and meditate on the problem until you get the answer or fall asleep. Even if you don't have the answer when you get up, at least you will feel better.

That at least has worked for me at times in the past, I don't know why I can't seem to make myself follow it anymore.

B.

Cabana Springs · Post by **Cabana Springs** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:58 pm

jpx wrote:i think it's me i have to forgive, before her.

i am not sure that i deserve it.

i try to scratch my cat behind ears to make up for it, and under her jaws in the way she likes. i guess one little step at a time.

"Forgiveness isn't a process, it's a decsion" Cabana Springs 2007

See - you are half way home now. You are giving it to yourself. So just do it and that is that. And you don't think you deserve it so there is no need to try to make yourself feel better.

A mistake was made and you learned from it so it wasn't for not. Time to focus on something new.

Good luck.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 1:01 pm

jpx wrote:i think it's me i have to forgive, before her.

Probably.

jpx wrote:i am not sure that i deserve it.

You probably do deserve to be forgiven, even if itÃ s for being an ass and less than the person you wanted to be. It may take time, it may take a LOT of time, but someday youÃ ll be able to look back and say, I was at the steep end of the learning curve. Now that IÃ m higher up, IÃ m glad of the experience, because I learned about myself and about the world. Give yourself the time, really. ItÃ s not forgiveness if you force it before you are ready. But knowing that you can fake it for 10 minutes to say goodbye.

Sensei · Post by **Sensei** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 1:06 pm

Ha! Looks like Crypto is typing on one of them Euro-type keyboards!

Get your ass back home where it belongs, Fishy!

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 1:08 pm

Scuuzi, I belong in venice, driving the guiness boat!

Cabana Springs · Post by **Cabana Springs** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 1:11 pm

I'm sorry Crypto - but fake it for who? Faking anything is a lie to yourself and the others involved and can never turn out okay. Please tell us how that is going to make anything better or even okay.

And why does it have to take a long time to forgive? What has to happen that takes so long? You have to wake up tomorrow and say okay I forgive.

Sensei · Post by **Sensei** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 1:12 pm

Don't we all. Be safe and come home when the beer runs out.

Back on subject: Why is it so easier to forgive others than ourselves?

Discuss.

joel the ornery · Post by **joel the ornery** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 1:32 pm

forgiveness?

fuck that... give me revenge any day of the week.

jpx · Post by **jpx** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 1:38 pm

Sensei wrote:Why is it so easier to forgive others than ourselves?

because we have to be honest about it, maybe? because you have to mean it.

i kind of think that you don't forgive others, that the root forgiveness is forgiving yourself, and the rest flows from there.

i am very hard on myself. if i was this hard on other people i would not have many friends.

MikeVDS · Post by **MikeVDS** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 2:08 pm

It helps me to remind myself that we're all human. Even if you try to hold yourself to a higher standard than you hold others, we still fall victim to the chemicals in our brain. If you've done something wrong, admit it and accept it for yourself. Once you know that you will not make the same mistakes in the future you'll have no choice to forgive yourself, since we cannot change what has happened only control what we will do in the future. If you're worried you might do the same thing again, then maybe you should figure out why.

misfit · Post by **misfit** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 2:37 pm

If you are giving it then it is quite easy. Just forgive and let it go.

If you think that you deserve it then you are just wrong. Nobody deserves forgiveness.

You probably do deserve to be forgiven.

some really fuck'd up advice..... how can it be easy to forgive someone that deserves no forgiveness.?.....

Box Burner · Post by **Box Burner** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 2:43 pm

Forgiveness is for yourself. It does not matter who is right or who is wrong. If you cannot forgive the other person you cannot forgive yourself. The key to it all is understanding. Most problems between people are a matter of misunderstanding. We do not understand so we become hurt or we hurt the other person. When you do understand, about yourself and why you act and react the way you do, and the other person and why they act and react the way they do, You realize that there really is nothing to forgive. Often howerver, we do not have the perspective to understand. In some cases we will not gain a perspective on it until we reach the next life. When you forgive someone you are saying to yourself: "I do not understand but someday I will and it will be OK." When you forgive yourself you are saying the same thing. Then you let it go. Because it really is OK someday I will understand why.

And thus we have the Martian sayings:

Waiting IS. (understanding)

And

Understanding IS. (waiting for)

That is my 2 Killbucks.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:55 am

Cabana Springs wrote:I'm sorry Crypto - but fake it for who? Faking anything is a lie to yourself and the others involved and can never turn out okay. Please tell us how that is going to make anything better or even okay..

Um, sheÃ¤s leaving. Thez saz goodbze, thereÃ¤s a hug, but no scene and no further damage, and as it is his intention to forgive her, he might as well pretend he has for the 10 minutes necessarz. ThereÃ¤s no need to drag things out, in mz view. ItÃ¤s not in an on-going context, just a verz temporarz thing to create some Ã„closureÃ„ and well wishing.

Cabana Springs wrote:And why does it have to take a long time to forgive? What has to happen that takes so long? You have to wake up tomorrow and say okay I forgive.

IÃ¤m a processor and it takes me a while to dig down to the bottom of the hurt and see mz part and mz assumptions and saz to mzself--well thatÃ¤s that. But it takes a lot of sleeplessness and journaling and ranting for me to get there. Then when IÃ¤m readz the magic happens and I go, oh that. That was sillz. ItÃ¤s like baking a cake instead of looking at a pile of flour and and egg and some sugar.

Karma · Post by **Karma** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:35 am

Forgiveness isnt something someone "deserves" or does'nt deserve. It's an act of compassion. simple as that.

Zhust · Post by **Zhust** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 5:49 am

Forgiving is the complement of negatively judging.

I've noticed that a lot of people confuse "judgment" with "condemnation." The former is an assessment whereas the latter is an attribution. In other words, if someone runs over your mailbox with a car, you judge the action -- determine whether it was an accident, negligence, or a deliberate act; determine motives; etc. If you judge the person negatively, you might not trust them for a while -- it's possible that they will redeem their actions, and someday you may forgive them for it. Condemnation is declaring the person evil and refusing the possibility of forgiveness.

So, without any details of what happened, I advise that you allow yourself to judge what happened to you. Embrace that judgment. But also permit yourself to forgive. In my experience, you can only consciously choose to condemn someone or allow yourself to forgive them. Forgiveness itself is a non-conscious act, and the only conscious facet of it is to be sensitive for that feeling.

Fex · Post by **Fex** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 11:46 am

What he said. And don't confuse forgiveness with folding, if wounded pride is part of this (and it surely is). And please know that I'm not some ivory-tower do-gooder hippy, either... I have serious issues with anger (some of the shrinks like to call us "rageaholics"). Forgiveness is a decision to not let someone's actions eat at you, and that's all it is. It's not a decision that their actions were justified, or even that they're a good person, it's just saying "I cant keep letting this corrode me, I'm going to let it go."

The thing I keep forgetting, and trying to remember and fall back on, when I need it, is this simple statement:

Anger is a Poison I swallow to punish You.

It's a statement that makes no sense, and it's all truth. Anger and indignation, however righteous they may be, are simply forms of self-torture that we for some reason do out of a desire to spite someone else. And the problem is, it's totally misdirected; it doesn't punish "them" anywhere near as much as it punishes ourselves.

Say goodbye, say "be well, good luck, be happy," whatever, don't worry if you really feel that way or not. That incincerety doing no one any good thing is a bunch of crap, I'm sorry Cabana, I mean no offense -- but it is. If you say "it's okay, we're square, I wish you well"-- and you don't mean it, you WILL STILL BENEFIT FROM IT, far more than nursing a hurt and waiting for your feelings to change. And they may know you don't mean it, but the fact that you had the STRENGTH to say it will be appreciated. And the gesture will probably be returned; and, whether or not it's sincere, likewise, you will appreciate the gesture. And you may not like each other but you can part ways with a measure of respect that helps start the healing. But you have to make the effort. Sitting around analyzing everything, and waiting for your feelings and priorities and internal conditions to change is pointless and goes nowhere.

Stop swallowing the poison, just stick your finger down your throat and and purge it. It burns, it tastes bad, it's painful, and humiliating if someone sees you... but the taste goes away after a while and the healing can start. Fuck her, this is all about you. It's your pain, address it. Radical self-reliance, right?

Burn bright.

jpx · Post by **jpx** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 12:51 pm

Fex wrote:Radical self-reliance, right?

when you put it that way. it is a bit more plain for me to see.

i heard the poison bit said another way, hurting someone with anger is like throwing a hot coal in their face, you are the one that will be burned.

last night was a plot point in the story i tell myself about myself. someday i will fit them all into a smooth arc. i got the attention i craved, for about 30 minutes. i kept saying you never told me this, explained that to me. which isn't true, she has said all that she wants to say, or has to say to make peace with what has happened. i think there is still lots that i want to say to her and i think it has no place to go.

i wrote her a haiku:

i miss you
like an evergreen in winter

it means a lot to me that people will extend their hands if you ask them to. i hope that as i get to know you better i will start to make you smile. i like Eeyore. i like that he ate thistles : )