2003 Plane crash at BRC airport

[gyre]

http://www.atla.org/pressroom/FACTS/fri ... ecase.aspx

There are many other mcdonalds hot coffee lawsuits and an untold number of concealed cases.

In an interview with an attorney I saw, he referred to a case where the cup collapsed, still a problem with mcdonalds cups, and caused similar burns on the crotch of a woman who asked for minimal medical expenses and was told to bugger off.
Mcdonalds claimed in court there had been no lawsuits and few complaints about overly hot coffee.
Over sixty lawsuits were located during this trial.
No one knows how many cases settled, but you can bet they involved worse injuries.
They were caught lying over and over and over.
These cases are a great example that damages are not nearly high enough to be effective and criminal penalties are needed.


I was working on a construction crew in this period, and we had to switch to a different supplier for coffee because mcdonalds ignored our complaints about heat and mcdonalds coffee was judged to be causing too many injuries to the crew.
Everyone hated having to wait for such a long time to drink it anyway.
I continue to be baffled at their decision to sell coffee so hot.
Their excuse was that people wanted to fill themos's to drink many hours later.
A bizarre marketing approach.
They must have had millions of complaints.

Their cups continue being too flimsy for liquids in certain sizes.

[Teo del Fuego]

Stella got burned in the crotch because she held a styofoam cup between her thighs as she tried to take the lid off. She could have held the cup in a 100 different other ways and received no burns whatsoever. The cause of her damages was not the coffee, but the remarkably negligent manner in which she handled the cup.

Why not sue the snot out of Burning Man b/c a woman named Kathy jumped off a moving art car and fell backward under its wheels? If you would sue McDonald's because they didnt have the foresight to see one (or a dozen) very dim-witted people using their laps as mug holders, you surely, would sue Burning Man too. After all, a flamethrowing moving art car with a platform is much more likely to cause injury than a styrofoam cup of coffee that is safely handled, litarally, millions of times daily by millions of people.

The fact that hundreds complained about McDonald's coffee is a function of statistics. Serve 100 million cups of coffee to a 100 million people and statistics tell you that about a 1000 of those folks will be complete morons.

I advocate not suing anyone, but dealing maturely with those little tragedies that befall us all from time to time and which were scripted by our own foolishness or inattention. Its called radical self reliance and radical individual responsibility.

[gyre]

Then you are advocating violence as the only recourse.
Because of the almost total insulation the medical community has already,
guns have been used repeatedly as a result.
Because the corporate community has isolated themselves from effective government regulation or criminal penalty, they created a system that is ineffective and demands huge penalties to have any effect at all.

We know of a hundred unsealed coffee cases with mcdonalds and it clearly had little effect.
There were probably hundreds of complaints at the single mcdonalds I went to.
I imagine millions of complaints over all.
I have yet to find anyone who wanted coffee served at that temperature.
Why do you think it unreasonable to expect coffee to be in an adequate container if served hotter than every other restaurant in the world?

We recently had someone's arm's torn off by attack dogs that weren't kept secure, in spite of repeated attempts at rescue.
Is a $50,000 cap adequate to compensate him?
Guess who ends up paying his expenses when he is left destitute?
This sort of thing already happens routinely to the injured.
Only recently have dog owners been held criminally responsible.
The last case like that here involved an elderly woman eaten alive by dogs.
The owner escaped punishment because he was a cop.
Do you think $50,000 covers that experience?
That is what the crooks want.


I don't believe you are seriously comparing a burning man art car to a company that spends billions persuading people to bring their children in for every meal.

In any case, if you go into court and commit perjury, you will have problems.

Personally, I think a company caught engaging in fraud should receive the corporate death penalty.

[mdmf007]

IMHO - Mcdonalds should have not lost that case - It is obvious that the coffee is "F"ing hot?? for 3 million bucks id soak my tea bag in it as well, and laugh all the way to the bank.

This country is in such a need of tort reform it is flabergasting. So many people treat a wrong by a third party like they won the lottery. Get hit in the rear end - sue the bastard.
burn your crotch with a hot cup of coffee because you are stupid - sue the bastard.
Beat up a burglar and give him 10 whacks - your ok. 12 - and you get sued for excessive force.

ridiculous, everyyear we have to defend 2 or 3 meritless and frivolous cases. We used to settle for a few grand, then they picked up in frequency. Now we spend thousands to counter sue frivolous cases and will seek attorneys fees, and get judgements that we dont collect on. Since we started doing that firvolous lawsuits have almost stopped.

I guess this is a sore spot for me, as we waste hundreds of thousands defending stupid shit. Want an example???

An employee of two weeks somehow makes it through pre-employment drug screening. He is randomly chosen two weeks after hire by our consortium (he has to have a CDL to drive response trucks) He doesnt go in, and I tell him he has too. He leaves that night from the fire station with 1100.00 in gear and keeps it. We deduct it fromhis wages and let him go, tell the state DOl he failed to take a test (presumptive positive) His license is suspended, and now he has to go to classes and pass 2 tests in 90 days to get it back.

So he sues my company for - Loss of wages (I should have given him time to prepare for a test - even though law states he has 24 hours to report to a D&A lab for testing - all on shift)

It is a meritless case and with the amount of discovery they were seeking it cost us over 40K to produce. The case was dismissed and we got attornies fees and costs awarded. Out of our pocket 65K, out of his maybe 500 bucks. Judgement - worthless.

I got lots more.
later all

[gyre]

You have been at the bad end of a system people like mcdonalds created.
They are the poster child for filing frivolous lawsuits.
Check out the uk mcdonalds lawsuit.
Sixty minutes reported that half of the protest group were agents of mcdonalds.
And again, they were caught lying over and over.
There was also a ruling that their food was unhealthy.
And I think the judgement was thrown out, except for $1.
Talk about bad legal advice.
I think it is THE frivolous lawsuit of all time now.

How would someone know they were using cups that disintegrate from excessive heat?
Mcdonalds already knew.
And they lied about it.

I used to dump a load of milk into their coffee just so I could drink it that day.
They still keep the creamer and everything else behind the counter now, because everyone else had to, as well.

You might be willing to be debrided, but I would be upset if it happened to any of my elderly relatives.
How would you feel if it was one of your family?
In many cities it is actually illegal to have showers that get that hot.
If you never went when it was like that, you wouldn't believe it.
I am still curious why mcdonalds kept doing something that none of their customers liked.
Probably bad legal advice.

Tort systems could be reformed but watch companies like mcdonalds scream if anything meaningful is attempted.
BMW got caught cheating customers and started screaming for tort reform.
And they got off light.
They are a perfect example of where criminal penalties should have been applied.

You do understand that when they say tort reform, they mean getting rid of the extremely limited right to sue we have now.
Remember that when a legitimate claim makes it to court, it means thousands that couldn't get there for costs and attorney reasons.
It means a victim that has been hammered with money instead of settling.
For a bmw or mcdonalds case to get to court, every juror knows they had a chance to do the right thing, but were too arrogant.
They could have settled for far less than they spent on attorneys before the case got to court.
But the big money was for the criminal acts mcdonalds committed.

Most victims now are already left with no recourse but violence.
Make it completely hopeless, which is what is meant by tort reform, and you will see enough blood for people to beg for another system that pretends to address problems.

We do need reform, but getting rid of frivolous lawsuits is the last thing people with a lot of money want.

Anyone can sue.
Doing it effectively is hard.

Be careful what you are supporting.
You may need good medical care one day.
Good luck with unregulated care.
That's what they mean by tort reform.

[Toolmaker]

Thats it..

I've had enough..

I'm takin eplaya to court..

Because my hand is sore from typing..

And I'm bringing all the users here into the case since they made the posts that I responded to which caused my carpal tunnel.

[gyre]

Carpal tunnel...Is that an avatar joke?

[Teo del Fuego]

Gyre,

No offense personally, but you are so deep into your own conspiracy theories and victim mentality. I suspect you have personally filed more than a few lawsuits of your own and are deeply bitter about losing them all.

[gyre]

There is nothing at all secret about law made by business for business.
And nothing theoretical about it either.
In this state, most legislation is written by special interests for a business purpose.
The real horror show are the ones that don't pass.
Get into it and you will see what I mean.
For instance, if you bounce a check at a grocery store here, it is a distinctly separate crime from one written to an individual.
Guess how that happened.
Most of these battles never see the light of day.
There was a huge battle, costing millions, trying to pass laws to make competition in the funeral business illegal.
When it finally went public, they tried to spin it, as usual.
They finally kept it from passing, but similar laws passed in many states.
There is currently a battle trying to pass laws about cable service.
Huge money is being spent.
There is so much propaganda I can't tell who is doing what.

And yes, I have plenty of personal experience with the courts, as they are the only recourse, and it turns out, not even that, unless you have enough money.
I am trying to wrestle with a fraud problem now, which should be prosecuted criminally, but the police here won't bother.
They were quick enough to call it criminal when the police union was defrauded of millions, but it was the first fraud case prosecuted in years.
I am trying to deal with someone fighting me with my money.
Maybe you have a useful suggestion?

I've mentioned my medical case before.
Every attorney agreed I would win, but unfortunately for my case, I survived, though with lifetime consequences.
Because of the huge glut of bad doctors, there are bigger fish to fry and I could not afford the $50,000 the hospitals make it cost to get to trial.
On my second visit to the ER, I had lost sensation in one arm and was unable to speak.
They diagnosed me as tired.
Again, no scan.
The correct diagnosis, especially with differential pupil response, was subdural hematoma for two and a half months.
I had good insurance and still didn't get decent care.
I went to a doctor and insisted on an mri.
I paid cash for it on the spot.
If I had not had the money, I would probably be dead.
Statistically, the odds are I should have been found dead or in a coma long before I got to a hospital.
Long term care in a permanent vegetative state costs a lot more than the $50,000 cap the "reformers" want.
It was agony.
The miracle is that I ever managed to get up and go to a doctor at all.
Survivors of missed treatment can rarely speak, I am told.
My only rehab has been things I do on my own, like typing on this glorified typewriter.
You may find I still make glaring errors and miss them even after careful checking.
When I first got on here, I had trouble composing a sentence.
I couldn't remember the entire thought at once.
I still do that sometimes.
I have to edit anything I write, as it is.

The hospital is Methodist Hospital in Memphis, Tennessee.
I had neurosurgery at Baptist Hospital and no one expected me to live, except me.
I had a neurosurgeon who takes all the hopeless cases.
I have never asked him about the survival rate of his patients.
I already know.
I had almost no questions.
The first surgery failed.
There was a very tense waiting period of months to see if they would have to perform a more drastic surgery.
That would have meant a slim chance of survival.
Finally, the pressure reduced.
I can tell you that a head injury is a horrible way to die.
There were many times I tried to call for help and I could not remember names.
I could not remember a phone number long enough to dial it.
Sometimes I would make a phone call and could not speak when someone answered.
Juries tend to award little with patients who do not have visible wounds.
There is a lot of personal denial at work, that we could ourselves get hurt.


When I was in icu waiting for surgery in the morning, there was a marathon of mad doctor films on.
Did you ever notice that all of those doctors are always neurosurgeons?
I watched them all night.
So now you know how deep my sense of humour runs.


My family has been sued several times by people who injured themselves trespassing-attractive nuisance nonsense.
I was personally sued for a million dollars by a gang leader, for injuries when they attempted to murder me.
Easy to sue, always hard to win.

I have had two relatives in legislative bodies.
I took the course given to interns in the legislature, which was an incredible experience.
It was about real politics, how it really works.
How to get elected, how to interpret polling statistics.
The guest speakers were amazing.
And I have some minor experience working with local politics in the most corrupt city in america.
But all you have to do is pay attention to see how it works.
You have to understand the reality of it to have any effect on it.
We are having a lot of corruption trials now with video.
You can learn a lot from those.


The hospital that nearly killed me, paid nothing and continues to use the same doctors and the same standard of care.
What about the people who go in there every day?
One day, it will be you.

[Teo del Fuego]

I do apologize for my last post, Gyre. There are two sides to the story and you've presented your side quite well. I bow out of this topic now. I hope you make a speedy recovery physically, and if need be, monetarily as well. I know it can be a long hard uphill slog for litigants on either side.
Good luck.

[gyre]

I appreciate it.
Some things I just have to live with.

I may have to write off the loss on the fraud involving my house, but I need the money to move.
I am sure they have spent more on their attorney than it would take to settle things.
It makes no sense sometimes.
They had planned on paying nothing at all though.
The delays are bad and I have no way to know what I am missing out on.

I hope you will get involved politically.
Every so often, even just one person can make a difference.

I will continue my federal lawsuit involving property rights and cities, but it was really not my idea.
Someone has to stand up for all the people that don't even know how to fight back and say no.
I hope to involve a lot more people and I really hope the Institute for Justice joins in.
They recently won the first case against abuse of eminent domain since the famous supreme court ruling.
My case involves the city skipping even that process.

Did you know that under the supreme court ruling, you cannot own property within a city?
Unbelievable!

Thanks for your good wishes.

[Toolmaker]

Did you know that under the supreme court ruling, you cannot own property within a city?
Unbelievable!

Didn't Jefferson say something about the legislature getting out of hand?

[mdmf007]

Kelo -VS- City of New London, CT

Justice Stevens states that private property within city limits may not be siezed without proper compensation, and simply declaring imminent domain is not enough. Hearings to justify the siezure are required and may be appealed.

Searched westlaw and couldnt find a no ownership in city limits.


anyways Kel was the closest i could find. later

[gyre]

The ruling that is drawing attention allows cities to take any property at will, even to hand over to another individual.
The case involves the assumption that someone else making the property worth more is all the justification needed.
Cities have gone much further than that, in fact.

If they can take it from you at a whim, that doesn't seem like ownership to me.

There was a phrase for it, seems like it was something about using property and freedom at the will of the king, from feudal systems.


Compensation has never been addressed fully.
Ask any of the people who had homes taken here and haven't received checks, some of whom had property handed over to private developers.
I have never met anyone who was able to replace a home with what they were offered by eminent domain.

There was a campaign to seize one of the Court Justice's home, which was blocked by his county.
This makes him the only person in the country immune to the ruling, so far.

If ownership means it belongs to you as long as no one wants it, then you can own property still.

The Institute for Justice has won a court decision in one state on this issue.
It remains to be seen what the supreme court will do.

[mdmf007]

Gyre - your correct,

another way to look at it is that the best you can ever hope for is to rent your property from the county in perpetuity.

Dont pay your property taxes - what happens?

[AntiM]

Not in Utah! We have anti-eminent domain legislation in place. While the traditional eminent domain for roads and schools still is in place, our state has said NO! to private developers. It has held up in court too.

Wal-Mart tried to muscle out a small neighborhood down on 22nd St., lower lower middle class, but the residents had been making improvements over the years. Hence the city couldn't label it as a blighted neighborhood. The home and business owners got a lawyer and won. There's already Wal-marts in Riverdale and North Ogden, both less than ten miles away, but Ogden City wanted one of their own for tax revenues. Didn't work. Private property ownership won out.

This is the stupid city which razed historic buildings to put in a downtown mall which failed in less than 15 years. Now there's a big mud pit downtown with waaay too upscale condos and rec areas going in. Sigh. One developer wants a gondola to run from downtown up to his mountain property so he can put in yet another ski resort. Not on the western face of the Wasatch you dimwitnit! That's always been kept undeveloped for a reason. It's our fucking watershed!

[Archantael]

Water rights and watersheds....the two things that can stop the developers cold. Having seen the Wasatch range (which IMHO is one of the prettier views in the West) why in the world would someone want to stick houses and crap up there? Some things were just meant to be left alone.

Back on topic, development has it's negatives...but stick TIF: Tax Increment Financing into the mix and it gets even uglier. I don't mind some development but jeesus, do they have to give away the tax money for the schools and roads to get it done?